"Black Box" Winchesters

Maher & Grosh sold knives for many years and I only have a couple of their ancient catalogs. Unfortunately, I won't be able to find a catalog example.

The Black Box Winchesters are VERY close reproductions of old patterns and I've seen counterfeits that use the Queen-made Winchesters for parts. It doesn't look like a fake to me. I don't see any obvious signs of tampering but the knife has been buffed or polished. Counterfeiters and fluff and buffers often use the same finishing steps. It can sometimes make the counterfeits difficult to distinguish from the "cleaned" knives. Can you take a photo of the springs with the blades open and two photos of the well from directly above with both blades opened and closed?

You might post it in BRL's ID forum to get more opinions on it.
 
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Sure thing, thanks for checking it out! See below.... Also if anyone thinks I should take this outside the thread let me know. I still think it's a black box but interested to hear what Jake has to say!

Also adding a better pic of the bone, both the jigging and coloring are drop-dead gorgeous. Still need to get this out in sunlight and take some glamor shots. :)

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Based on what I see in the additional photos, I don't think it looks like a parts knife and I don't think it's a restamped or reworked Winchester. I don't know if it is a reproduction or a knife sold by Maher & Grosh. As far as being made by Queen using the same parts as the Winchesters, it's difficult to know without comparing side-by-side. They're at least similar patterns. I've heard rumor that the black box knives used old dies but I don't know if those rumors are true. Also companies bought up old equipment from other companies. There are some differences but I can't rule out the possibility that the knives may have some common genetics. As mentioned previously, the blade arrangement is different. After closely comparing the bolster embellishment, I think it was made with different tooling even though it is very similar. The jigged bone (beautiful!) is very different than the old Utica bone used on Black Box Winchesters and nobody has done jigged bone that good in decades. I'm sorry that I can't be of more help. But I think it's a keeper!
 
Is the shield on the Maher & Grosh pinned? Beautiful bone on that one and I agree with Jake, looks like nice vintage bone to me. Never heard of any reproductions of a Maher & Grosh?
 
For comparison, here's a closeup of the bolster on a black box Winchester. There's an additional straight line on the M&G and I think the spacing between the slanted lines may be different... I tried counting them and measuring them and then normalizing the distances. I suspect they were made with different tooling.

The tang stamp is different than the stamp on the knives that I've owned but they were ancient. I'm not familiar with other stamps they may have used. The way that it's stamped looks alright to me.

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Here's another old coffin jack. This one doesn't look the same but I thought you might like to see it anyway.

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I ended up with 3 toothpicks this week, 2 early curved stamp 87 1924 and a 90 saber grind 1936. I really like the 1936. The 1924's came in boxes with white letters and the 1936 had the red letter box.

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One more post on the M&G and I'll hopefully end the accidental thread-jacking...

Jake and Bill, your photos have convinced me that this is definitely not a Winchester. The lines on the bolsters are actually quite different on yours than on mine - On the M&G the slanted lines are actually raised above the rest of the bolster.

As for the shield... mist be pinned, because it is raised above the bone to the point that I don't even think I cut-out was ground into the bone.

This knife turned out cooler than I thought. I'll take some more in-depth pics and post a new thread.

Thanks again for all the info!
 
I just picked up a 3949 sowbelly and a 2904 1/2 and I have to say I like both knives better than most of the GEC's in my collection. They are robust but elegant knives that ooze quality and workmanship. Congrats to those that have large collections, these are great knives.
 
Has anyone ever gotten a bad Black Box knife?...As in,not very good fit n finish,and weak
springs,etc?....Just curious to see if Im the only one who has....I picked one up few years ago
that was in really bad shape as far as fit finish and weak snap,etc......The assembler may have
just had a bad weekend,or maybe it had been in heat or something after assembly?...I've not
had that many,but the one bad was a jack knife,I do remember that.....
I think they're beautiful,especially the really dark Burgundy bone versions.....Not sure what the
bone color is called?...My favorite is a Coffin Jack,or the fishtail....I'd love to own either,or both.

The collection posted on previous page is AMAZING,some really beautiful stag too....JD
 
Of course. There are no absolutes.... "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." ;) :D

IN GENERAL my experience with the black box knives has been positive. But they're hand made knives and not every one is perfect. More automated manufacturing processes are more repeatable with less variation. Victorinox is a good example of consistency with more automated manufacturing.
 
I have one, the Panama Trapper aka Banana Trapper, aka Toad Sticker. It's in stag. I like it very much. If I were to pick for nits, it has them. All knives do, especially ones made by a human.

A nit to me is an edge that needs reprofiling, slight gaps between between bolster and liner, backspring/blade not perfectly flush. However in counterpoint, the mirror finish is outstanding, the swedges are perfect, the stag is gorgeous albeit not matched, the shield is inlay-ed with care, there are almost no gaps between stag, liner and back spring, the stag feels real good in the hand, plus it locks up tight but it's smooth enough to be opened one handed (for a 51/4" lockback that's good!)

To me it's well worth the $100 I paid for it, even worth the $125 is was marked. I got it brand new, unused in the box but no papers. I have since used it a lot. Took me about 15 minutes to give it a better edge and another 15 min to give it a great edge. Took it through the "cut out the chicken back" test and it passed with flying colors :) It's prepared a few meals. The polished 1095 holds up real well. I oiled it with honing oil. After each use I clean the "patina" off with Flitz and give it a Ren wax coat and it has stayed almost as shiny as new. The "Winchester" mark has worn, but is still readily visible. My only complaint is the weight, but hey the size of the bugger is what makes it fun too.
 
Robert, that's a beauty! Are the blades krinked (bent) or has stock been removed from one side of each of the secondaries to let them pass?
 
black mamba said:
Robert, that's a beauty! Are the blades krinked (bent) or has stock been removed from one side of each of the secondaries to let them pass?
Click to expand...

Thanks!! Stock removal on the Spey but the Sheepsfoot has both removal and is krinked. :)
 
This little guy was hard to find for the longest time but it seems as tho they're everywhere now.
Greg

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This thread has got me excited about my recent purchases! I just purchased the 3964 Stockman, 3902 Whittler, & the 3971 Whittler.
Waiting on there arrival.

Beautiful photos everyone!
 
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