Black Jack's Blatant use of Randall Made Knives Designs?

Thanks MM. I'll look it up. BRKT has a remake of the old Mac V Sog in 3V too. It looks pretty as can be but 6 inch long and .250 inch thick makes it less thin and slicey than I like. Still..... :)

Joe
 
Mikael W said:
Madcap, to my knowledge the Black Jack brand is owned by Blue Ridge Knives.
The US made Black Jack's are made by Bark River on order from Blue Ridge Knives.

Regards
Mikael
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Thanks for the correction... the Mike Stewart empire is ever-changing...
 
The Mastiff said:
Thanks MM. I'll look it up. BRKT has a remake of the old Mac V Sog in 3V too. It looks pretty as can be but 6 inch long and .250 inch thick makes it less thin and slicey than I like. Still..... :)

Joe
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What is the name of their MacV SoG?

*edit* name not bame, sorry... also I realize now the name is MacV SoG.
 
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madcap_magician said:
Well, my hypocrisy is purely theoretical at this point. I can bitch about Ganzo still because I haven't bought from either company.
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Also, there is no way to tell if the patent for the axis lock has expired or not. It is a deep rabbit hole to figure this stuff out. The lock actually has 7 different fillings. Mchenry and Williams is still paying fees on the patent as far as I know. I doubt they would do so on an expired patent.
 
justjed said:
OH, and while they most certainly are not Randall's, the Blackjack knives are actually pretty decent, made of quality materials, and priced pretty fairly for a production knife of this construction. You could do a LOT worse for a carry knife, I can assure you. Hell, buy a Blackjack to work with, and save the Randall for BBQs and football Sundays.
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Im sure they are a great deal...Its like taking 5 minute abs workout routine...then a guy comes around with 4 minute ab routine...Weak
 
justjed said:
I can't say that Randall Knives DIDN'T try to do something. Only that, obviously, there was nothing that could be done, or else it would have been done.

Do you have any idea how many knife makers and knife manufacturers make knives right now that are VERY similar to Randall Made Knives? More than one, or even thirteen, most likely. You likely won't find a legal loophole that Randall's lawyers didn't. Why are you worried about it? There are starving kids in Houston or Philedelphia that could actually USE help, if you just want to fight for the down-trodden.
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But they did not make a WHOLE (sadly successfull) business based on copying another company. It really bothers me that its a fellow "Made In USA" company. Its one thing to copy a design on a single knife then tweek it a bit. But basing your entire business.... website, designs, and model numbers format on another company is rubbing their face in the dirt. I guess black jack cant claim "Proudly" Made In the USA
 
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It's shady to do, but perfectly legal. Most knives can only qualify for "ornamental design" patents, which are very easily circumnavigated to the point where there's virtually no point in bothering. But there are other business strategies for dealing with this sort of situation, including doing nothing at all. As others mentioned, those buying Blackjacks are probably mostly not the same folks buying Randalls.
 
Honestly, how can you take any praise or compliments for your knives or company?... When someone compliments on how great your USA MADE designs are? Its got to be awkward lol....unless you say you took them from a fellow respected American made company (which would be a little awkward, but honest)....black jack should at least say on their website that their designs are inspired by the legendary Randall Made Knives, especially since they are so successful on non black jack designs. Its ridiculous.......I guess black jack made their bed and can sleep in it
 
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extrastout said:
So black jack actually made a whole company wrapped around a legendary, fellow American companies hard work and design making....Yes, I get communists steeling designs for profit. I'm pretty sure theres copyrights on the Busse Talon hole, and the Spyderco Spydie hole. Either way, black jack couldn't even come up with an original way too name their different Randall stolen designs (model 1, model 2, model3....Really!). I honestly am hoping to find out there is some kind of agreement between these companies.....Fellow American companies
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"Blackjack" is now just a brand. The original company by that name went bankrupt albout twenty years ago, and the brand was purchased out of the bankruptcy by someone formerly totally unrelated to Blackjack the company, Ken Warner. Not sure who owns the brand now, but Ken Warner is a giant in the knife world, a member of the Blade Hall of Fame.

The Blackjack Model 1-7 and Randall Model 1 have been compared here several times. http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/randall-and-blackjack-1-7-observations.675436/
They are similar, not identical. The Blackjack 1-7 is not a copy or clone. While it seems fair to argue that the BJ was based on or meant to suggest the Randall ("style"), no Randall collector would mistake the one for the other. I doubt that very many here, ranters aside, would place them side-by-side and say they were the same design - unless you are trying to leverage on the Randall mystique to sell your BJ. Different thickness, grind, handle, guard, steel - you know, all those nagging details.

Blackjack was built in 1987 on selling knives made my this guy Reeve which were, at the time, made in South Africa and imported into the U.S. If you have a problem with Reeve's fixed-blade knives, take it up with him or whoever runs things now.

Then Blackjack imported knives from Japan.

The first U.S.-made Blackjacks were made after 1990.

The Model 1-7 was one of many Blackjack models, most of which bear no resemblance to anything Randall ever made. But you would only know that if you were informed about the topic. Anyone without an axe to grind can Google "blackjack" plus any of the following and see if they look Randall to you: Blackmoor; Highland Dirk; Tartan Dirks; Anaconda; Marauder; Viking Raider Axe; Mamba; Warner-Moran Bowie; Safari Classic; Loveless Warner; mini-mamba; Jaeger; Tracker; Halo; ZFM III; Kukri; wasp.

Later, Blackjack, the company, bought the "Ek" brand and made several models of Ek-like daggers and bowies and other knives Ek never imagined but bearing the Ek brand.

And patents or trademarks apply to features of knives, not copyrights. Patents are not eternal. If the Randal Model 1 was patentable, which seems unlikely, and was patented, which is not in evidence, the patent expired generations ago.

God forbid that mere reality should get in the way of a good rant.
 
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Thomas Linton said:
First of all, "Blackjack" is now just a brand. The original company by that name went bankrupt albout twenty years ago, and the brand was purchased out of the bankruptcy by someone formerly totally unrelated to Blackjack the company, Ken Warner. Not sure who owns the brand now, but Ken Warner is a giant in the knife world, a member of the Blade Hall of Fame.

The Blackjack Model 1-7 and Randall Model 1 have been compared here several times. http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/randall-and-blackjack-1-7-observations.675436/
They are similar, not identical. The Blackjack 1-7 is not a copy or clone. While it seems fair to argue that the BJ was based on or meant to suggest the Randall ("style"), no Randall collector would mistake the one for the other. I doubt that very many here, ranters aside, would place them side-by-side and say they were the same design - unless you are trying to leverage on the Randall mystique to sell your BJ. Different thickness, grind, handle, guard, steel - you know, all those nagging details.

Second, Blackjack was built in 1987 on selling knives made my this guy Reeve which were, at the time, made in South Africa and imported into the U.S. If you have a problem with Reeve's fixed-blade knives, take it up with him or whoever runs things now.

Then Blackjack imported knives from Japan.

The first U.S.-made Blackjacks were made after 1990.

The Model 1-7 was one of many Blackjack models, most of which bear no resemblance to anything Randall ever made. But you would only know that if you were informed about the topic. Anyone without an axe to grind can Google "blackjack" plus any of the following and see if they look Randall to you: Blackmoor; Highland Dirk; Tartan Dirks; Anaconda; Marauder; Viking Raider Axe; Mamba; Warner-Moran Bowie; Safari Classic; Loveless Warner; mini-mamba; Jaeger; Tracker; Halo; ZFM III; Kukri; wasp.

Later, Blackjack, the company, bought the "Ek" brand and made several models of Ek-like daggers and bowies and other knives Ek never imagined but bearing the Ek brand.

And patents or trademarks apply to features of knives, not copyrights. Patents are not eternal. If the Randal Model 1 was patentable, which seems unlikely, and was patented, which is not in evidence, the patent expired generations ago.

God forbid that mere reality should get in the way of a good rant.
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whats 3rd of all?
 
bghorn said:
In general, copyrights apply to literary works, musical works, dramatic works, pantomimes and choreographic works, pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works, motion pictures and other audiovisual works, sound recordings and architectural works.

Only in special circumstances, copyright law would apply to knives (unique artworks).
In most cases though, you can patent (some) design aspects of the knives (utility or design patent).

There was nothing on Randall knives that would make them utility patent eligible. That said, most of Randall models were granted design patents. Design patent last 14 years (15 since 2015).
Most of Randall's models were patented long ago ('50s, '60s, '70s) and said patents are expired.
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That's my take as well and the designs are not necessarily original to Randall Knives either. Bo Randall built a company based on mostly variations of the same sort of theme. I personally think the Blackjack classics are just as good as their Randall cousins, maybe better. But the sheaths aren't as good. I have a few of the Blackjack Classics. The 125 was my go to woods knife for a number of years; but to be honest about it, I'm not really a fixed blade guy and they see little use. They see carry but not significant use. Would not use the 125 for serious batoning. But I would if I needed to. I'd just be careful. If you want a Randall, buy a Randall. Want something that costs less, but is very functional and to many beautiful? Buy a Blackjack Classic. I own both.
 
The Mastiff said:
I wasn't aware they had brought out 3V model 1-7. I'd prefer that to the one I bought in A2 around 5 or 6 years ago. The A2 is pretty good though and honestly I don't have any complaints. I always have really liked the look of the 1-7 knives

Aren't these knives made by Mike Stewart as in BRKT knives? Seems like he does knives for at least 2 other companies as well. I have a few I've picked up over the years in blade lengths from 8 inches down to under 3 inches and .250 inch to well under .100. The steels are A2, 3V, Cruwear, and 4V. Fit and finish on all is good. Due to all the choices it's easy to get carried away

Joe
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Stewart has a long history with Blackjack. I haven't seen the 3V version of the 1-7. I own a 1-7 in A2. It is a pretty solid knife just the way it is. DLT seems to be the dominant seller of Blackjack knives and they have commissioned Blackjacks to be manufactured by BRKT. As mentioned, I also believe Blue Ridge Knives owns the Blackjack trademark. Blue Ridge does not manufacture knives. They are mostly a distributor. Stuff that DLT sells comes through Blue Ridge.
 
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22-rimfire said:
That's my take as well and the designs are not necessarily original to Randall Knives either. Bo Randall built a company based on mostly variations of the same sort of theme. I personally think the Blackjack classics are just as good as their Randall cousins, maybe better. But the sheaths aren't as good. I have a few of the Blackjack Classics. The 125 was my go to woods knife for a number of years; but to be honest about it, I'm not really a fixed blade guy and they see little use. They see carry but not significant use. Would not use the 125 for serious batoning. But I would if I needed to. I'd just be careful. If you want a Randall, buy a Randall. Want something that costs less, but is very functional and to many beautiful? Buy a Blackjack Classic. I own both.
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My money is going to the real thing. I will have a Randall Denmark Special in about 4 more years. I just can't support black jack until I find out they give credit to the maker that is the basis of their whole operation. This is why I like Sal Glesser and Spyderco so much. They get it and credit other makers. I just think its sad that people will buy from black jack, not knowing about Randall. Thinking black jack was the creator of their knife design. I mean, their handle patterns with stag, to leather is completely the same. Nothing is changed up. I thought I was on the Randall website looking at black jack blades. Every single model. I cant believe this company can hold their head up in the knife world/brotherhood. Like I said its not a company copying just one or 2 blades outside of the normal original style. black jack just went on the Randall website printed out pictures the knives and told the boys on the floor to make this. We will call it model 3 instead of model 4.... Cha Ching
 
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extrastout said:
My money is going to the real thing. I will have a Randall Denmark Special in about 4 more years. I just can't support black jack until I find out they give credit to the maker that is the basis of their whole operation.
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Your money, your choice. I refuse to wait 4 years for any knife. Blackjack Classics are similar to the Randalls. Not all Blackjacks are in the classics line. It is just a trademark. You will note that other companies make knives similar to the Randall's. This general design is not typical of what most current knife folks are looking for in a knife. But I like the classic look myself.

I like Bob Dozier's replicas. They are just priced beyond what I am wiling to pay for such a knife.
 
22-rimfire said:
Your money, your choice. I refuse to wait 4 years for any knife. Blackjack Classics are similar to the Randalls. Not all Blackjacks are in the classics line. It is just a trademark. You will note that other companies make knives similar to the Randall's. This general design is not typical of what most current knife folks are looking for in a knife. But I like the classic look myself.
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Its a five year wait and will not die without getting it instantly. something to look forward to...I got a Scrapyard and a Lon Humphrey for my instant gratification. http://lonhumphreyknives.com/
5QvG8PY.jpg
 
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