Black Jack's Blatant use of Randall Made Knives Designs?

I'll be too damn old in 5 years to probably care much beyond banging on the keyboard. I enjoy this stuff and have for a long time. Honestly if Bill Moran was still alive, I don't know if I'd give him $1000 to make one of his knives for me and wait for 5 years to get it.

When I was a kid my Dad and brothers used to go fishing for native brook trout in the mountains of PA. I love those memories. One of those memories is of an older gent we ran into along the stream and visited a bit. His name was Bobby Darin and he was quick to say that he was of no relation to the singer. He laughed. We commented at the time about how wonderful it was at his age to be able to get out into the mountains and catch these little jewels. I doubt he had much use for a knife beyond a simple traditional folder. Guess that's where I'm headed. But I'm certainly not there yet. ;)
 
So much misinformation here...

You don't have to wait five years for a Randall made to your specs; you can order one through a dealer that will make you wait 6 months, and it will be made just like your five year custom order... So what if it costs more than the overly low factory price...

Blackjack Randall "clones" are all convex ground, and don't even begin to cover most Randall models...

The Blackjack Model numbers don't always match Randall either...

Real Randalls are hollow ground, forged, and so have absolutely nothing to do, at the most basic cross-section design level, with Blackjack... (Hollow ground is of course far superior in the long haul, the edge staying the same thickness as it wears)

They have, at best, similar profile silhouettes, and even on that there are many differences. We need a patent on knife profile silhouettes now?

Finally, anyone who thinks a new fancy steel will out-perform a currently made Randall is just demonstrating their susceptibility to hype and marketing (but mostly hype I would guess). There are no accepted protocols for evaluating knife steels, and the easiest ones to make up, as "scientifically consistent", are probably the most removed from actual use... This is not like computers where the new stuff is always better than the old.

Or, come to think of it: Consider the new "wonder steels" as very much akin to Windows Vista, but with users unwilling, or unable, to shake off the hype and downgrade to XP...

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
.... Finally, anyone who thinks a new fancy steel will out-perform a currently made Randall is just demonstrating their susceptibility to hype and marketing (but mostly hype I would guess). There are no accepted protocols for evaluating knife steels, and the easiest ones to make up, as "scientifically consistent", are probably the most removed from actual use... This is not like computers where the new stuff is always better than the old.

Or, come to think of it: Consider the new "wonder steels" as very much akin to Windows Vista, but with users unwilling, or unable, to shake off the hype and downgrade to XP...
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Had to chuckle with the Windows Vista vs Windows XP comparison. Neither are supported by Microsoft any more.... :D In today's virus climate, you want their product support. By the way, I still have a desktop that is running on Windows Vista. Works just fine, but it is not connected to the internet.

I'm comfortable with what Randall does. But I know you should do better in the steel department for a knife costing $500+.
 
We know that people buy Blackjack "not knowing about Randall" how? Not everyone shares the same level of knowledge.

Most of those here who say they like Blackjacks also mention Randall. Many are deliberately deciding to buy an alternative that fills the same function and may have different, if not better, materials. I owned four Randalls before I owned a Blackjack. I didn't buy Blackjacks to substitute for Randalls. The only real Randall is Randall-made.

As for Dozier getting"it," he apparently set out to produce a replica. Black Jack did not and has not. Different thickness. Different height. Different blade grind. Different handle. Different guard. Different steel.

I doubt that whoever owns the BJ brand today is worried about your "support." Certainly Randall is not worried about Blackjack.
 
I owned a number of Randalls before I knew about Blackjack. The Blackjacks are good enough for me. Been thinking about getting rid of my modest Randall accumulation.
 
Did Randall come up with many of those designs which Blackjack copied or were they generic patterns that were public domain? I'm not saying one way or another I genuinely don't know and am asking someone more knowledgable to answer.
 
Lapedog said:
Did Randall come up with many of those designs which Blackjack copied or were they generic patterns that were public domain? I'm not saying one way or another I genuinely don't know and am asking someone more knowledgable to answer.
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The Model 1 style certainly. The Model #14 grind is a bit more generic, but the total design was certainly was uniquely Randall. The Model #3 style that Blackjack is copying now is a unique Randall shape, but it in turn has some Scagel in it.

Stewart is a copyist for many designs, it's what he does, and he does it decently. After a while most folk that have been in the cutlery game for a while, just shrug, and take it as a given.
 
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lol....here come the fan boys. American companies steeling from American companies is all I see. In the knife world, this seems WEAK to me, especially with such an iconic, historical design (show credit, where credit is do)!! Its all about the Benjamin's. I get the China stealing deal, they hate us. I also know you can get a Randall from dealers. I chose the 5 year route because thats how I roll
 
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extrastout said:
I get the China stealing deal, they hate us.
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Certainly a very good reason to avoid made-in-China!

Anyway, always thought that Blackjack had some kind of licensing agreement with Randall. After reading through this thread, guess I was wrong.

I do have some Blackjack knives. They're okay for the price. I'm not willing to wait 3 to 5 years for a Randall made to order. I know you can get some Randalls from sites like A.G. Russell for a much shorter wait, but I think the selection is limited.
 
extrastout said:
lol....here come the fan boys. American companies steeling from American companies is all I see. In the knife world, this seems WEAK to me, especially with such an iconic, historical design (show credit, where credit is do)!! Its all about the Benjamin's. I get the China stealing deal, they hate us. I also know you can get a Randall from dealers. I chose the 5 year route because thats how I roll
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We should care what you "see" why?

The designs of the Blackjack 1-7 and Randall Model 1 are clearly different.

Roll on.
 
"Finally, anyone who thinks a new fancy steel will out-perform a currently made Randall is just demonstrating their susceptibility to hype and marketing (but mostly hype I would guess). There are no accepted protocols for evaluating knife steels, and the easiest ones to make up, as "scientifically consistent", are probably the most removed from actual use... This is not like computers where the new stuff is always better than the old."

Got to disagree with this stuff Gaston. If someone , even a metallurgist disagrees with you just discredit them as someone having been fooled by hype? If you were making a statement that was subjective like " No one makes a better knife than Randall for my uses" you would be fine.

Lots of knives made in many different alloys out perform Randall's forged O1 and stainless models in one or more, maybe all attributes. It would be senseless to argue contrary to that. Your experiences with a knife or three does not change the facts. There are books, articles, scientific papers and graphs and charts available ( not counting the product sales brochures available on the companies websites) to research. Individual companies like Spyderco and Buck are two I know of who have set up labs for their own use but they keep their results proprietary for the most part. They paid for and did the testing so they can do that.

Some individuals have tried to add to the knowledge base here and elsewhere but often they are attacked for their efforts by people which has caused more than one to stop ( stop using their own money and time to test then making the results available to everyone who then complain about the test not being X, Y, or Z instead of the complainer doing the test themselves including whatever correction they want)

Joe
 
Thomas Linton said:
We should care what you "see" why?

The designs of the Blackjack 1-7 and Randall Model 1 are clearly different.

Roll on.
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You posted on my thread, so you do care what I "see"....I am sticking with the fact that black jack based their whole business on the work of Randall Made Knives. Maybe Denial makes you feel better about buying from bj's and not buying the real thing, and thats fine. I was hoping to discover that I was wrong and black jack got some kind of permission or gave Randall credits. Maybe the owners are good friends...something?

Roll on.[/QUOTE]
I see you in the rearview mirror, sorry for all that dust...
 
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extrastout said:
You posted on my thread, so you do care what I "see"....I am sticking with the fact that black jack based their whole business on the work of Randall Made Knives. Maybe Denial makes you feel better about buying from bj's and not buying the real thing, and thats fine. I was hoping to discover that I was wrong and black jack got some kind of permission or gave Randall credits. Maybe the owners are good friends...something?
Roll on.
I see you in the rearview mirror, sorry for all that dust...
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I read somewhere than someone from the Randall clan is or was involved in the Black Jack brand.
 
LastRodeo said:
I read somewhere than someone from the Randall clan is or was involved in the Black Jack brand.
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Did that someone leave Randall on bad terms?...Or is black jack a silent sister company.... like the scrapyard of Busse Knives? (even scrapyard makes their own original designs away from from Busse)
 
extrastout said:
You posted on my thread, so you do care what I "see"....I am sticking with the fact that black jack based their whole business on the work of Randall Made Knives.
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Incorrect and BS. Maybe Linton is responding in the thread you started to correct incorrect information for other readers such as "whole business model" that you have stated a couple of times. Stick to "your story" all you want, but you're wrong and it certainly is not a FACT. It is your opinion.

You essentially started this thread in the hopes that BF members would trash Blackjack. The Blackjack classics are pretty good knives. Some might even say they are better than the Randall's that are similar in appearance. Some like the Blackjack classics and some don't. They occupy a small niche in the knife world. If you search BF about Blackjack knives, you won't see a great deal of interest in their product line overall. Many don't like the "classic" design or look. The same would apply to Randall although the Randall's are frequently collected.
 
22-rimfire said:
Incorrect and BS. Maybe Linton is responding in the thread you started to correct incorrect information for other readers such as "whole business model" that you have stated a couple of times. Stick to "your story" all you want, but you're wrong and it certainly is not a FACT. It is your opinion.

You essentially started this thread in the hopes that BF members would trash Blackjack. The Blackjack classics are pretty good knives. Some might even say they are better than the Randall's that are similar in appearance. Some like the Blackjack classics and some don't. They occupy a small niche in the knife world. If you search BF about Blackjack knives, you won't see a great deal of interest in their product line overall. Many don't like the "classic" design or look. The same would apply to Randall although the Randall's are frequently collected.
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I remember when I had my first beer

Roll on.
 
Pick up a Blackjack classic of your choice and see what you think using it. You never know, you might just like it.
 
extrastout said:
Did that someone leave Randall on bad terms?...Or is black jack a silent sister company.... like the scrapyard of Busse Knives? (even scrapyard makes their own original designs away from from Busse)
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If I remember correctly, it was along the lines of the "silent sister company". When I read it I remember having an aha moment.

If I could offer a suggestion. The American knife industry has a long history of copying each other. It's almost a defining trait among them. For example, everyone and his brother copied the Buck 110.

Don't get worked up about it. The manufacturers can and will work that out among themselves.

I am curious though, will you be using or collecting the Randall?
 
22-rimfire said:
Pick up a Blackjack classic of your choice and see what you think using it. You never know, you might just like it.
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I have came close and I am close. I just needed to know that they gave some credit to Randall Made Knives to make me feel ok to pull the trigger. The Made In USA on their website is what I like to see. I just want to see some credit or that black jack knives are inspired by the historic Randall Made Knives. Something like that would make me pull the trigger. I have a Randall on order and feel like I'm screwing/spitting on them by buying a bj
 
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