Blade Forums Customs Forum-Are we changing?

Snody said:
Looking forward to seeing you this September.
These Phony Knifemakers remind of the Pilgrims that come to the end of the pier where we fish for 10 foot tiger sharks and throw out a Zebco with 6 pound cotton line.. We are running Penn Internationals and 12'0s with 100 pound test and homie shows up with the Zebco and a crappie hook.. I can not stop him from fishing where we fish but there is Zero possibility of young homie catching a 700 pound tiger shark with the $12.00 Walmart fishing pole.. This forum is where the Sharks Swim.. I can not stop anyone from posting here, I am just giving advice to new makers that they are not going to sell their junk to this level of collector.. This is where the Sharks Swim.. These guys are not playing around..
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No Blade Mike ?

As for your posts

Mike says it the way it is and does not back peddle. I like that :)

As for the rest of the thread. Kevin great thread.

I have not been around as much as I would like but that is just due to being busy chasing a buck and my kids :)
 
Kevin Jones said:
... Opinions on artistry and flow should imo be measured under execution of design.
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Artistry and flow are elements that exist in the eye of the beholder. I don't think it is possible to replace an individual's opinion/perspective with an objective formula of measurement. IMHO, Vermeer is a great Master and Andy Warhol is a silk screen hack. Others may have a different view and that is what makes horse races.
 
Im a newbie and was excited about donating a knife to the safari club, got some great feedback from everyone who was seeing it (fellow makers), figured cool it aint no take down bowie, but hell, a satin finished piece of ATS34 with a good grind and set of lined scales,BOS treated its worthy......
knives507.jpg

I even asked for comments, got quite a few views stabber and brian gave me a shout out, but that was it.
Now as a newmaker i gotta put stuff out there, and take the feedback for what it is, good or bad. I figured the sheath would draw some heat, but it slid on by...damn thing didnt even fetch 200 bucks at auction!! But the thank you letter is gonna be priceless, i might even frame it, since my wife wouldve have laughed at me if i tried to frame the first dollar i made from knives!! Either way im in this for the long haul, and have tons of respect for the makers that set this all up and the collectors who keep it going!!
Greg
Back to the grindstone for me first show next sat, and 2 BF builds joined today!!
 
Kevin Jones said:
David I don't need to get a grip as I know what the purpose of this forum is for me and it has nothing to do with locating highly prized knives.
It has to do with my enjoyment of the collecting of custom knives, educating myself, helping and educating newer collectors and knifemakers,
and progressing custom knives in general.
And this forum is already something very important to me, or I would not have spend the time today in creating and following this thread when
I have many other things to do.
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It is this kind of class that keeps me coming back to check on how things are going.

When I first joined BF this was my favorite subforum - the knives were amazing and I was learning hand over fist. Now, the knives are often still amazing but the only thing I learn is 50 new ways of saying "great knife". Obviously every knife is not the pinnacle of the art and I don't know how makers can be expected to progress without useful criticism. As Skimo pointed out, criticism is crucial to mentoring.

And it's not just the makers losing out. In this company, I hesitate to even call myself a collector - maybe a knife "appreciater" who happens to have a few knives - but who will educate those who are coming along now? Even though I now appreciate knives well beyond my means, what I have learned has let me make much more intelligent (and therefore more enjoyable) purchases at the level I can afford. I would love to see this forum get back to what it was.
 
I don't want to chyme in on this thread but feel the need to. I am a new maker that has learned most of what I know about knife making on these forums. I get tired of hearing about the "Good Old Days" I am of the opinion that when we look back in life we tend to see the good more than the bad. There are Many MANY great people willing to give Helpful constructive criticism to those that want it. I think part of the "Meek atta boys" that are common is due to the permanance of those comments. Why not point out the good and follow that up with a PM in private voicing your opinions on how they may be able to improve their work (Which people have done for me in the past). I agree with Mike that people need to be told what they are doing wrong to become better, does it have to be done in the public eye? I know I don't do that to my children when they do something wrong.

Threads like this one make me wonder If I should stop posting my work in this forum, who tells me when my work is worthy? I personally want honest feedback and as long as it is respectful and not given as the be all end all, it is up to me to take it or leave it. If I go down the wrong road, I am the only one out the money and time.
 
David Stifle said:
....... To me, this particular forum has dumbed down. I see no reason to see a "gee, look at my first knife" in this particular forum. A new or intermediate maker should post his/her work in the makers forum, and hone their skills there. I just think this forum should be a place for higher level blades. If it isn't, then how is it different than any other of dozens of look at me sites? Do you honestly feel you are going to unlease your whole attention on a low or intermediate maker, and take the time to offer a well thought out critique? Or, on the other hand, when you look at a blade from an advanced maker who asks for a critique, do you realize you are now talking to a person who has put in many years and will listen to your opinion? Clearly though, this site isn't the lively spot it used to be; there are other knife forums who have collectors forums, they are uniformily dull. I hope this forum rebounds, but without the old wars. As always, this is just my personal opinion, and I never try to offend anyone, I hope I haven't....
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I am quite sure that you did not offend anybody, David, but actually
echoed the feelings of many....

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
 
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Mmmmmm.

1. I made some offhand comments about Marcus Lin's work that I thought were valid and that wound up hurting his business because some collectors would rather take the easy way out than see what they think for themselves. That was a net loss. I met Marcus at The Knife Expulsion in Pasadena a few weeks ago, and thought we were both going to have a cry over our mutually expressed apologies. That was a net gain.....but it isn't a wash. There is always a person on the other end of the critique and sometimes those easily tossed off quips that seem so witty open up festering wounds....in the broad spectrum, I have a problem with that....so I ceased being so self-amusing and stopped posting.

2. You have makers like Mr. Rader who think the end all/be all is the customer being happy. How can you change that perception? You can't. It is a useless and futile battle and working behind the scenes as I wrote about before is so much more effective. It's like pesticide....effective and lasting, but almost undetectable until it is too late. This was my MO before forums, and was so amazingly effective that while no one really knew who I was, there were ripples that continued for some time.....Mike...really, REALLY?....:p The end goal/ result SHOULD be to produce amazing, singular work. I can get a nice, simple knife from a maker like Larry Fuegen(maybe you have heard his name?) for around $1,000 that will blow the doors off, perform and continue to satisfy and amaze...hold value, and generate interest in the arena of custom knives. THAT is a goal other makers should shoot for....not a simple "customer satisfaction".....be willing to survive scrutiny and have your work stand against the greats when you feel it....that is what Tom Ferry does, and that is why I have MASS respect for him, even though we butt heads whenever we talk.

3. The question, Kevin and others....is what are we trying to accomplish? Do we want to crush young inexperienced makers, or do we want to promote solid knifemakers and bring them to the "right" collectors? I have discovered so much more satisfaction in consulting with makers like Burt Foster, Jason Knight, R.J. Martin, Charles Vestal and Nick Wheeler, matching them up with the "right" opportunities and letting it fly
(sometimes, they don't even know about the "match"...but the collectors DO!:D). Again, a net gain. Lately I have been working with Mike Craddock and David Sharp...both deserve a serious look for quality, delivery and freshness of thought.

Jim Cooper, FFS, you should know we are fine.....otherwise I would call you and harass you and Susan until we worked it out.....friendship is not temporary with me, amigo.

The bottom line is that we can obtain enmity or provide opportunity. I'd rather offer a hand up at the end of the day than a kick in the ass....that said, I'm still a relentless, unapologetic prick!:D Thusly, if you have need of "special attention".....I'll stroll up at a show and offer some face-to-face commentary rather than be accused of hiding behind a keyboard.
 
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STeven - your not posting here is a significant net loss, in my view. I'd much rather you aimed for the balance mentioned earlier, even if you occasionally bounce off the ceiling. I can't immediately think of another forum member collector who brings your broad range of experience to the table - and I very much include myself in that comment.

That said, I understand your feeling that engaging with makers directly off-forum is more rewarding. I certainly have found the same.

Roger
 
Its always good to hear contrary opinions. If everyone speaks with one voice about a knife, you know there is something wrong. That said, I dont see how its possible to critique a knife without first handling it and cutting something with it, even if its just paper or string. At the end of the day, its a tool and surely it must be handled in order to get the full sense of its true worth. Otherwise it has more to do with the makers design and photography skills than anything else. At the end of the day, a forum is a great way to find out about new makers and stay current with established ones, but a picture of a knife is just that, a picture. Which is why I think knife shows are worth any number of forums. At least there you can pick up a knife and at least get some sense of its weight, balance, feel in the hand, liveliness... you can test the edge with a thumb, see how it fits your hand, examine the fit and finish from several different angles in good light (hopefully). None of which you can do by looking at a picture, no matter how artful.
 
After a night to sleep on it I figured out more reasons why I have been on this forum for so long.

I have had a fascination with sharp objects for as long as I can remember. This forum is not only a place for me to learn new skills, promote my own work, get opinions on my work but also get inspiration from makers from around the world. Where else can you see new work from makers like Elizabeth and Wolfgang Lorchner, Don Hanson, GTC, Rodrigo Sfreddo, and Nick Wheeler without going to a show?

There are thousands of knives made each year and many go sight unseen to the public. Many of which I am sure I would like to see. I am constantly checking dealer websites to see their new postings for ideas and inspiration.
I used to be able to go onto this forum and see a very wide variety of knives. Unfortunately I am tired of seeing bowie, fighter, camp knife, hunter and my first knife in the thread title.

Collectors- post your knife pictures, even if they are not new knives. I'm sure that there are McHenry's, Williams, Selvideo's Schmidts, Loveless, Lorchner, Walker, Davis, Horn, and Morans that I have never seen and would like to see for inspiration. Pictures of older knives also give inspiration to newer makers and show the progression of the custom knife to where it is today.

David Ellis- I always look forward to your Sunday showings because I never know what you will post, but they are always great.
 
What if the Collectors Posted actual photos of knives they own, pointing out the flaws on those knives?
 
WOW

First, I'd like to thank Kevin for starting this thread - lots of interesting posts:thumbup:

One thing that topics like this always bring to my mind is the fact that the Internet area has certainly changed social discourse - I think it's the "videogame mentality" - fire and forget, and then figure you can push the reset button if you die! Myself, I am more "old school" . I think that my profession influences this as well - surgeons are often thought of like test pilots - seat of the pants cowboys- but in reality the best surgeons do ALOT of planning BEFORE they operate...because when it hits the fan sometimes, you are better prepared to deal with problems. So....with that in mind..I've read and re-read the responses...and here's my take

Objectively, this forum has clearly changed - many of the "old guard" post much less, and without doubt there are fewer criticisms offered. I agree too that the forum had moved more toward "forged blades" and away from folders - except for those smiths like DHIII and Larry Fuegen who do both. Also, fewer "stock removal" participants - who've possibly been "run off" by the forging crowd.

Having said that - EVERYTHING changes over time, and again, I think it depends on your perspective.
I'm 51, and I think the guys around my age (+/-) have a bit more "perspective" (not sure I'd call it maturity :p) as well as a sense of nostalgia. Think about it, in life, in politics, in love...we tend to idealize the past in many ways. We tend to get a little set in our ways. Is that Bad? NO, but we have to keep it in perspective and not get stodgy.

Younger guys are FULL of enthusiasm, but perhaps lack a bit of perspective. They have endless energy, but many have not yet learned to "work smart, not hard"
The social morays of this generation are different than mine, and so sometimes we older guys take offense where none is meant....or you younger guys rub us the wrong way unintentionally.

But, each "camp" has something to bring to the table obviously...the trick is to blend the best of both worlds.

Let me give you an example - Bill Moran is an icon to the "forging world" and with good reason - he talked the talk, he walked the walk, and he kept bladesmithing alive for future generations. Having said that...I have held some Moran knives that would NOT pass the current MS exam. I say that with ALL respect, because I have no doubt they would perform any task you asked of them, and they clearly were made with love....but there it is.

Conversely, I've held knives from some of the younger guys, especially the folders...and they are mechanically perfect. Some of them have "the feel" as well...and some just don't have "it" - and you all know what I mean!

This is why I agree that the forums are necessarily an incomplete experience -

Even the best fotos (Coop, Buddy, David etc) are a "2 dimensional" representation of a knife - so "judging" a knife by a picture is therefore incomplete. Sure, you can spot gross flaws, but until you HOLD a knife in your hand, you cannot fully appreciate it. As great as Coop's pics where, I could not fully appreciate my Wheeler/Paranee fighter until it was in my hand.

Another example from the "real world" .....Women:D

You can see a picture of a beautiful woman, and be attracted to it....but I don't think you can "fall in love with it" ( and if you CAN, I don't want to hear about it:p)

You can see a beautiful actress in a movie...now you have more "information"....but it is still unreal.

Now, see a beautiful woman IN PERSON - how she looks, moves, talks, smells...well NOW you can fall hard..."in love" or "in lust":D
But still, you need some time (usually) before you KNOW she's THE ONE.

Not to trivialize this....especially if any women are reading:p - but isn't it similar with knives from a collector point of view? See knife - interest! Hold knife...more interest!! Speak with knifemaker, get to know his likes,dislikes, vision....well, now you not only want the knife but you may form a "relationship" that results in further knives, maybe even some collaboration!

Now, think about this.....you post your new knife, which you "love" and someone you don't know, who has never held the knife - "disses it"...at least from your perspective. You can see how this might be taken badly....kinda like someone "dissing" a picture of your wife on Facebook or whatever ! You MIGHT see red, no???
OK, maybe your wife is NOT Heidi Klum...but she is IT to you:D

Now, I also LOVE and adore my daughter. She is a "collaboration" between my wife and I...Is she "perfect"?
Well, she is to ME
If someone were to say something disparaging about her....in person or on the Internet...well, I would absolutely see RED and personally, I would be very likely to lose it and do something that would be quite immature...and feel good about doing it !

Now picture a knifemaker who has poured his "soul" into a knife - maybe it's not perfect, but it is his baby....and then folks he doesn't know rain all over his parade....guess how he feels now????

I realize that this has been kinda long-winded, but at least I tried to break it up into sections - haha

Long and the short of it:

Things change and it is our responsibility to see that they change for the BETTER. As a collector, but also occasional knifemaker, I agree with Roger...until you "walk a mile in the shoes" of a knifemaker, you can't quite fully understand what it means to him or her. That doesn't mean you can't express your opinion - I am a big "open exchange of ideas" kinda guy. Just think before you post, and try to keep it constructive.....IF the maker ASKS for critique !!!! If the maker has not asked for critique, perhaps consider NOT saying anything, or taking your advice offline.

Having said that, Snody is also absolutely right - if you are a maker who is going to post in THIS forum, you should have done your homework AHEAD OF TIME!
I've never met Snody, but I've seen his posts/vids etc and it is clear to me that he is a "professional knifemaker" - in the truest sense of the word:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: He is true to himself, he has distilled his process for max efficiency, and he makes quality products and markets them well!
Hope to shake your hand someday bud !

I DO miss STeven, and Kevin Cashen, and Burt Foster, and RJ Martin....guys who don't post much, but who bring ALOT to the table. I'd love to see them back more...if it is right for THEM - but they don't have any responsibility to make ME happy. I like seeing newer guys post - Dave Lisch, Tad Lynch, Mike Quesenberry - they bring plenty of enthusiasm AND talent. I love reading Nick Wheeler's WIPs - I think he is giving back, and making this a better place.

Without being TOO kumbaya (;)STeven and Coop!), I want EVERYONE to feel free to post and bring something to the community!!

If some newbie type posts a "turd" but seems interested and enthusiastic...well, maybe some of the "senior" guys can gently steer him/her to the right spot, without humiliating him/her in public...we need new blood, both on the maker and collector side. I've seen new collectors get "smoked" as well, by presumably well-intentioned advice designed to "steer" them to the "correct makers" for one reason or another...so it goes both ways.

In the end, though, this forum has led to me meeting many of you IN PERSON - and that is what I've gotten the most from! I've been impressed that the makers and collectors alike are some of the nicest and most helpful folks you might meet:

And so I'd like to say THANKS - whether I agree or disagree, I've learned something from each and every one of you.


Bill
 
Snody said:
Dude, you are a professional dues paying knifemaker..
Look at the picture below.. It was posted in this forum recently.
This is an example of someone who needs further instruction prior to introducing his work to international collectors.
I hate to be the one to break it down but there aint no collector on a keyboard can help this guy.. You feeling me?
If you came to the Mike Snody School of Knifemaking and told me you posted a picture like this I would call you an idiot in front of the entire class..
AmyKnifeGrindtoDeath.jpg

PICT0009.jpg
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I get your point, and it is valid. I was a little taken aback at your choice of the words "idiot" and "phony", partly because your comment nailed me square to the chair I'm sitting in. I had a number of happy customers behind me before I ever posted any of my work on this forum, but I have never deliberately sought out a critique by another maker, so I guess I took it personally on behalf of those who have followed a path that is similar to mine.
The last time I was face to face with a "world class maker" was about 20 years ago, back when you had to buy a copy of Blade to see pictures of knives from the big name makers, and you had to wait another month to see more, unless there was a knife show in your area. Back when stainless was still known to be un-forgeable, and Sean McWilliams was a rock star for being able to do what no one else had the stones to try. If he had taken the judgement of other makers as gospel truth, he would no doubt have found it impossible as well.
 
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I've been following this thread for a couple days. Good thread, Kevin!

Not only has the forum changed, but the whole world is changing. There will always be 'the good old days', but we must move forward.

This is a good place and I haven't been spending as much time here as in the past. Not sure why, maybe because it doesn't seem as interesting as it used to be? Hopefully this will pass.

I will continue to post my work here and if anyone wants to tear it apart, go for it. My skin is fairly thick. :D

P.S. I also miss STeven!
 
Don Hanson III said:
Bill do not apologize, that was a very well thought out and written post!!!
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+1 Most EXCELLENT post Bill, and my sentiments coincide with most of what you eloquently stated. Funny that your comparing a knife to a woman was one that I too had pondered.

Like with EVERYTHING else in the world...CHANGE is inevitable.

I am grateful for what I have personally gained from bladeforums, and hopefully that will continue.

Peter
 
Justin King said:
I get your point, and it is valid. I was a little taken aback at your choice of the words "idiot" and "phony", partly because your comment nailed me square to the chair I'm sitting in.
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Dude, your knives are off the hook.
I went to your website last night and spent a considerable amount of time admiring your work.
You should be proud of yourself.. You are a professional knifemaker. Your work speaks to me. You are doing it right.
Get at me if you ever need anything.. 361 443 0161
 
Public forums just aren’t the place for serious critique.

It seems to be mostly about which makers can make the most friends and get their knives bumped up to the top the most times.

I think it’s more political than anything else… which seems perfectly natural and to be expected.
 
Snody said:
Dude, you are a professional dues paying knifemaker..
Look at the picture below.. It was posted in this forum recently.
This is an example of someone who needs further instruction prior to introducing his work to international collectors.
I hate to be the one to break it down but there aint no collector on a keyboard can help this guy.. You feeling me?
If you came to the Mike Snody School of Knifemaking and told me you posted a picture like this I would call you an idiot in front of the entire class..
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Mike, I hate that I missed that thread. Ugly knife yes! But so interesting!

I made a knife not that long ago and a dealer saw it at a show, he said; "It so ugly, it's cute"

I just smiled and said; "Whatever" Sold the knife later. :D
 
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