Blade Length at Scout Camp

Hey

LYoung

""The rule(if you will here) is they have to carry it their pack not on a belt. ""

And what becomes of that knife if you flip the canoe or otherwise get separated from your ruck ??

Exactly...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
Hello

Chrisber

""Because it is in a kids nature to try and one-up each other. In other words "bring any knife you want" would eventually turn into boys bringing a two hand great sword (like the one William Wallace used in Braveheart) to spread butter or their toast for breakfast.""

First of all a "Great Sword" is a tool for the purpose of Killing.. It has No place in the woods,, unless you plan on roasting a hog on it... Apples and Oranges..


""I love to use a large knife as much as the next person, but we dont have to carry a ten inch chopper to be successful woodsbummers.""

No,, we don't.. But then again I don't carry an axe.. My 9" Battle Mistress takes the place of an axe, and does some things better than an axe.. I personally find it more useful.. If my Hawk can't handle it,, my Chopper will...

""I feel that you can accomplish most any task that would arise with a four or five inch blade. ""

Sure it will,, but what if it doesn't.. Ever try Chopping with a 4-5" blade?? Doesn't chop the Greatest... It can be done,, but will take you 4-5 times longer...

A 4-5" knife will also do most of the things a machete will do can it can't do everything a large blade can do...


Proper tool for the Job....

It's like Crowbars... Sure you can do most everything with a smaller crowbar can do,, but a large crowbar makes the task easier...

I work on a 3-4 knife system.. Large 9-10 ", med 4-5' small SAK or a folder and then usually a Hawk.. Each tool does a specific purpose and has it's place in the woods,,just like the Machete has it's place in the jungle..

It's all based on opinion....

If trained properly it doesn't matter what the length is as long as it fits into Usefulness.. A Broad Sword would make a Great tent stake or a Skewer to roast Critters on..

ttyle

Eric
O/ST



I feel that you can accomplish most any task that would arise with a four or five inch blade.
Reply With Quote
 
Bufford said:
The Scouts need to learn the difference between games and the real world. They can only learn by doing. The kids should be prepared for the real world of the wilderness, that includes proper atire and tools. That being they should be required to carry a knife on the belt. It would be reasonable for the young ones to carry a fixed blade and learn to respect and care for it.

There should be programs that include using and maintaining knives. Such a program would provide the young ones with a real life skills and reduce the chances of serious injury.
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Too true-i've got 1 cub & 1 joining next year. They will both get a Vic German Army Knife (cheapo used but sharp & servicable) in a belt pouch for their birthdays IF they reach the age of 10. The older one swiped one out of the drawer to take to school. Holy Shit there was some kerfuffle over that -the police were mentioned ,expulsion was mentioned as part of departmental policy. Hes in 3rd grade FFS. Fortunately nothing came of it.
He only wanted to show his mates the knife.Mind you he did get the talking to.
 
I hear too much on here about scouting heritage and it doesnt matter this or that and just bring whatever you want and f!@# the person who comments about it. Read the original scout manual, there is no mention of choppers except for an axe. An official fixed blade was offered of about four inches. Situations and rules are different all around the world of scouting. I am an Eagle scout, class of 1998, and I didnt need a 10 incher to get me there. This thread has lost whatever scouting roots it started with and has become the OP tellingf all that he is right and they are wrong. I am currently an assistant scoutmaster and am very partial to scouting. I live my day to day by the oath and law, motto and slogan. This, in my opinion, has become a tread on one mans rant, and I will no longer be a part of it. Good day to all.
 
I'm glad you are working to teach the boys proper knife usage. I'm an Eagle Scout, and never liked that rule. Luckily, our Scoutmaster was lenient WRT that rule.
 
Hey Chrisber

""and just bring whatever you want and f!@# the person who comments about it.""

Sorry Chris... You've got no leg to stand on...

""Read the original scout manual, there is no mention of choppers except for an axe.""

So What?

Theres no mention of GPS in the Orienteering section Either..

Moot....

""An official fixed blade was offered of about four inches.""

Again,, So What ....


"" Situations and rules are different all around the world of scouting. I am an Eagle scout, class of 1998, and I didnt need a 10 incher to get me there.""

That's Great.. I'm glad you made it


"" This thread has lost whatever scouting roots it started with and has become the OP tellingf all that he is right and they are wrong.""

The only time I said I was right is when old Scouter told me it that my knife broke the BP&P (Bylaws) when in Fact I knew it didn't, because it seems I know the BP&P better than Old Scouter who attempted to intimidate me with it...

I called him on it with "Show Me!", which of course he never produced, or will never produce because it Doesn't Exist...

The fact that I took it to My boss( Scouter in charge of Tri Shores District) who told me not to worry about it, and set Old Scouter straight, Proves I was right...

So what we have here is Pure Opinion.. That's his opinion,, and your opinion.. Fine,, I can Appreciate that,, but that's ALL it is and Carries exactly that much weight..

Nada...


"" I am currently an assistant scoutmaster and am very partial to scouting. I live my day to day by the oath and law, motto and slogan. This, in my opinion, has become a tread on one mans rant, and I will no longer be a part of it. Good day to all.""

"" one man's rant"

LOL

It's people like you who have turned the Scouting Organization into the Glitter and Glue Outfit it is today...

Carry On

YIS

Eric
O/ST
 
Hey Fiddleback

""I'm glad you are working to teach the boys proper knife usage. I'm an Eagle Scout, and never liked that rule. Luckily, our Scoutmaster was lenient WRT that rule.""

I'm a Venture Adviser and I have both male and females in my company.. Age range from 14-18, and Only the Ventures handle the large blades. Scout are also welcome to try them however with Direct one on one supervision..

My Vents all carry the Mora 780 Triflex..

Thanks

Eric
O/ST
 
chrisber said:
I hear too much on here about scouting heritage and it doesnt matter this or that and just bring whatever you want and f!@# the person who comments about it. Read the original scout manual, there is no mention of choppers except for an axe. An official fixed blade was offered of about four inches. Situations and rules are different all around the world of scouting. I am an Eagle scout, class of 1998, and I didnt need a 10 incher to get me there. This thread has lost whatever scouting roots it started with and has become the OP tellingf all that he is right and they are wrong. I am currently an assistant scoutmaster and am very partial to scouting. I live my day to day by the oath and law, motto and slogan. This, in my opinion, has become a tread on one mans rant, and I will no longer be a part of it. Good day to all.
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You are 100% Correct. I'm a pretty big proponent of carry what you want as long as you use it properly, but there is no scout woodcraft task that I ever ran into that can't be handled by a SAK, axe, saw combo. Is the BSA becoming more blade averse? Yup. Scouts Canada? You bet. Should the battle be fought to preserve Scouting ideas and skills? Absolutely. At some point, good sense and the civil society must prevail though.

crackerjax said:
I carried a ka-bar from tenderfoot to life rank yea sometimes I got flack because they jad this BS rule about only having folding knives. I then put my Ka-bar away and asked the leader if I could borrow is Swiss Army Knife.... Later in the evening I was given the task of gathering and preparing firewood for dinner. Well to spite him being such a dummy I split wood by batoning his little red knife through some white oak branches.... The knife broke at the pin he got all mad... I told him " thats why you carry a fixedblade knife,you can carve a spoon and split wood. It then got heated and I left scouting. I still support the BSA but that leader was more "BS" than I cared to deal with I was 2 weeks from my eagle rank when I gave it up I was also in the OA.
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Your wrong, but I have a feeling that the explanation would be lost on you anyway. Enjoy your childish revenge.
 
IMHO any requirement on the size and style of a knife used in Scouting is purely political without thought to peoples right to choose for themselves. There has been little argument to which type of blade is actually useful .
 
Eyegor said:
You are 100% Correct. I'm a pretty big proponent of carry what you want as long as you use it properly, but there is no scout woodcraft task that I ever ran into that can't be handled by a SAK, axe, saw combo. Is the BSA becoming more blade averse? Yup. Scouts Canada? You bet. Should the battle be fought to preserve Scouting ideas and skills? Absolutely. At some point, good sense and the civil society must prevail though.
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Blanket bans and restrictions serve no purpose except to hinder.
Some people prefer the big knife over the hatchet. Why force them to use something else just because you don't feel it is a worthy tool?

Limbing, clearing brush and vegetation from trails and campsites, game processing, cutting poles and saplings, are all things where a big knife will outshine a hatchet.

The only rule should be "Carry what you wish, as long as you use it properly"
 
Normark I couldn't agree more with what you stated, you and I and many here on this thread are frustrated because we are old school. We grew up practical more in touch with ourselves and the land. However much has been lost in the younger generations who have become separated from the land.

By teaching the young what we know about living with the land, we pass on the knowledge of true life skills, the kind that make a difference between life and death as well as ethics. We cannot let this knowledge die.
 
mkhop

"" IMHO any requirement on the size and style of a knife used in Scouting is purely political""

That's Exactly Correct.....

That mentality is driven by Political Correctness and fear... As soon as he said "Rambo Knife" I knew right there the type of person I was dealing with.. Legitimate use or not he doesn't like it because of his poor perception and mentality..

""There has been little argument to which type of blade is actually useful .""

That's because there is No Argument.. Each person has their own idea of what the perfect knife is.... I use the right tool for the right job..

Why would I take a chance on destroying my "camp" knife on a job it's not suited for? I wouldn't. I go for the tool that is right for the job...


ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
My Scoutmaster was an Eagle Scout, former Army Ranger, and an LEO officer with various NRA instructor certifications and countless other qualifications. He was a unique Scoutmaster with a great knowledge of bushcraft and know-how. We were allowed to carry whatever knives we liked as long as we used them in a safe and knowledgeable manner.

I took advantage of this, and my kit for the camp usually consisted of a Becker BK9, Victorinox Hiker, and a Cold Steel X2 Voyager or Spyderco Military. It was not uncommon for me to carry a Cold Steel Rajah I as part of my uniform to Scout meetings - my Scoutmaster typically had one tucked in the rear of his waistband (not sure how effective this method of carry was for him, but he swore by it).

He was a great influence and I learned alot from my experiences with him, both locally and at places like Philmont. His knowledge and understanding of knives made my time with the troop enjoyable and I have missed it a great deal.

There ARE beacons of hope in Scouting - you just have to find the light.

God bless.

KATN,

Wade
 
Hey Bufford

"" Normark I couldn't agree more with what you stated, you and I and many here on this thread are frustrated because we are old school. We grew up practical more in touch with ourselves and the land. However much has been lost in the younger generations who have become separated from the land.""

Very true... And they aren't taught properly because their parents aren't taught properly,, so nothing gets handed down....

This is the big problem in Scouts right now.... There are very few skills being passed down, simply because no one knows them any more.... And this goes with anything...

Just in the last few weeks as Scouts are updating permits and such,, I've seen improper teaching of orienteering,lanterns and stoves and knife handling..

The orienteering was done OK, except for the fact the instructor was teaching how to hold a compass wrong... Lanterns and stoves.. Scouts were taught how to set it up, both on a propane and a pumper.. There was no trouble shooting taught and no disassembling...

When I teach it, Everything gets field stripped and it gets gone over and cleaned part by part... One Scouter was telling to kids to lube up the pump seal with veggie oil. Yaa that will work in a pinch,, but you don't keep doing that year after year.. That's when the parts cleaner and brushes come out...

Since I'm a venture leader, I don't want to interfere with a Scout leaders teaching, but I asked if I could do it and started from the beginning tearing both the lantern and stove down including the mantles... Getting Everyone on the same page is a Huge problem when you have this many people who have been teaching it the same way year after year.. The training gets diluted and fluctuates Drastically from person to person and group to group.

""By teaching the young what we know about living with the land, we pass on the knowledge of true life skills, the kind that make a difference between life and death as well as ethics.""

Absolutely... Respect has to be taught across the board.. I see it all the time.. A honey bee was flipped upside down and a kid was about to stomp it, so I told him to stop then let the honey bee grab onto a finger it walked across my hand then flew away..Kids were shocked that I would touch it.. Another kid ripping the back of of a Shag bark Hickory.. I asked him if he would like me to peel strips of skin off of his body... Things like that...

Just remembered something..

I witness one Scout leader telling a class of Scouts and Ventures that if they had to pee, to do it into a stream or water source.. Couldn't believe my ears.. We were standing outside of the door,,myself and a couple of other leaders.. I turned around looked at them and shook my head "Don't do that".

I didn't question him on that but through a couple of tester questions his way enough to realize he was full of crap.. So right there Everything he teaches in my mind is suspect...

There's a Outdoor skills class on Sat at the camp, so I'm going to pop over and just observe....I want to see first hand who's teaching what and how they are doing it... If I see matches or lighters being used I'm going to pound my head off the nearest tree..

"" We cannot let this knowledge die.""

It's headed that way if we don't step in and do something about it...

Rick Marchand and I did a Schools and Scouting program last year.. This is the first time I had worked with Rick in this kind of setting, but we bounced back and forth and got a really decent flow going,, and I'll tell you we opened some eyes in a Big way.. They've simply never had that level of skill being taught...

I urge Any of you Bushcrafters to approach your local Scout troop and get involved..Start teaching these skills and become a roving teacher,,go from group to group doing demos.. These Scout troops are Dying for this kind of thing.. I Guaranteed if the right people see it, you will be asked to come back...

If WE don't teach it,,,Who Will ??

Break the Cycle and teach what you know.. It's your Absolute Responsibility as a fellow human to pass this information along to as many people as possible....

YIS

Eric
O/ST
 
Steelscout

""His knowledge and understanding of knives made my time with the troop enjoyable and I have missed it a great deal.""

Now it's your turn to teach Brother !!

Find a Troop, and get involved.. Pass what you have been taught down,, it is your Duty,, plain and simple..

YIS

Eric
O/ST
 
I'm right there, Eric. I've repeatedly had to educate adult leaders in my troop and even instructors at our district's Adult Leaders Outoor Skills Training (ALOST). Hopefully I will be on staff for future training.

Next weekend I will be presenting Edged Tool Safety, Selection & Use as well as Fire Preparation and Survival Shelters at a troop activity. Be assured the FFBM will make an appearance!

That being said, I do NOT subscribe to the notion that Scouts can carry whatever they want. These are kids - typically other people's kids. They need guidance. Our purpose as adult leaders is to help them learn to make good decisions (while hopefully retaining all of their digits). I'm guessing you agree with the idea of guiding your scouts on proper knife selection and use; you just bristle at knee-jerk prohibitions by unthinking, unqualified quislings of the mommy state.

Personally, horseplay with knives, double edged knives, and butterfly knives those stupid "survival knives" with the big exposed compass on the pommel (you know the ones!) are my hot buttons.

Giant knife one upmanship can be countered by contests of fine carving.
 
The policy of the BSA on sheath knives is wishy washy at best. They discourage them on BSA sanctioned activities. My troop allows our boys to bring sheath knives with blades up to 5 inches on troop outdoor activities. We find that is ample size to accomplish any task they need to on a campout. If they need something bigger they should look to the hatchet, axe or bow saw for that job. If we are going to an activity that includes more than our troop, we limit it to folding knives. Most activities with more than one troop are usually Council sponsored event. Our Council has a stated policy of "NO SHEATH KNIVES AT COUNCIL EVENTS"....emphasis by council.
I know it is simply bowing to political correctness. The sheath knife is ultimately more safe when doing scout crafts.
At least we haven't sunk to the level of Brittish Boy scouts....their new policy is they don't need knives at all. WTF?
 
Hey Pritch

""That being said, I do NOT subscribe to the notion that Scouts can carry whatever they want.""

Nor do I...

Our Scouts are lucky to carry a knife at all...They are Closely watched.. I believe our Scouts are older than US Scouts as well(11-14)..

As I stated my Vents all carry 780 Moras.. If they want to carry anything bigger they must show they are proficient with a large blade or a Hawk... They generally use mine although my son (17) carries his own hawk as well as a variety of knives, nothing over 5"

The old Scouter has a problem with *Me* carrying and promoting a large blade, and allowing the use of that large blade by Ventures; and Scouts that are Supervised one on one.

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
Actionshooter

""At least we haven't sunk to the level of Brittish Boy scouts....their new policy is they don't need knives at all. WTF? ""

BP is spinning in his Grave...

Pathetic...

When that happens here I'm Out....

Eric
O/ST
 
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