Blade-play in top-shelf production knives.

Cornelis and zenheretic, please, discuss this off topic personal argument by email.
Thanks.
 
Cornelis Böhms;4125359 said:
I think I'm falling in love with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbup:
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Understandable. :rolleyes: :p :D

Next time I hope we argue about something a bit more high brow.
 
Some of my smaller FRN Spyderco lockbacks have a little vertical give if you push the tip of the blade in a downward motion on a hard surface. I can't get them to move if I try and move them by hand. Knowing how lockbacks work, it's not really a concern of mine. They all pass moderate spine whacks with no problem.

My Benchmade Axis & Cold Steel Ultra lock knives don't exhibit any play, nor do any of my Spyderco liner/compression/ball-bearing locks. Ditto for frame locks from several manufactuers.
 
May I point out that Brownshe is Spyderco's most prolific, consistent, dissenter on the forums, who never misses an opportunity to knock Spyderco.

I have tried on several occasions to appease his negative fire, but I have failed. My bad.

Lock-backs, especially mid lock-backs are very difficult to make, but they are quite reliable when made properly. They are also legal where many other types of locks could be considered "flick" knives.

lock-backs do not have "self adjustment" like many other locks so the tolerances are much closer. That's why many of the knife companies don't try to make them, and if they do, it's very few models. How many of the knife companies mentioned even make lock-backs? How many are mid lock-backs?

sal
 
Gentlebeings, we are here to talk about knives, not to talk about each other. Take it to email.
 
71cuda said:
I'm intrigued. Would you please mention some "top shelf" production knives?
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This ought to prove interesting but I'll play along...

Allow me to clarify, this thread centered specifically on how Spyderco knives seem to wiggle in directions that no other manufacturers have the same problems. The only Spydercos mentioned were SS and FRN Spydercos. These are not top shelf knives. Delicas, Enduras, Natives, and Spyderflys are not top shelf knives. I just double checked the thread, but those were the only ones specified that I could see.
 
zenheretic said:
Allow me to clarify, this thread centered specifically on how Spyderco knives seem to wiggle in directions that no other manufacturers have the same problems.
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It focused on Spyderco as the thread went on, but not initially.

1)The title implied a discussion regarding, arguably, all brands.
2)This was posted in the general Blade Discussion Forum, not a Spyderco-specific forum.
3)In the first post, the OP inquired about other brands.

So, I tossed out a few high-end brands that the OP didn't mention (see post #4). However, you seem to think the production knives I mentioned aren't "top shelf." Would you please enlighten me of what you know of "top shelf" production brands? Because, honestly, I'd be very thankful if you direct me to some ultra-high-end production knife that I'd never seen before.
 
71cuda said:
It focused on Spyderco as the thread went on, but not initially.

1)The title implied a discussion regarding, arguably, all brands.
2)This was posted in the general Blade Discussion Forum, not a Spyderco-specific forum.
3)In the first post, the OP inquired about other brands.

So, I tossed out a few high-end brands that the OP didn't mention (see post #4). However, you seem to think the production knives I mentioned aren't "top shelf." Would you please enlighten me of what you know of "top shelf" production brands? Because, honestly, I'd be very thankful if you direct me to some ultra-high-end production knife that I'd never seen before.
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If you are unable to see that there is at least two different conversations going on in this thread, there isn't much I can do to help you. None of my coversation was directed at you, nor did I even notice you existed until you started directed questions regarding my posts. I'm certain the CEO of Spyderco voiced his opinion in this thread had absolutely nothing do with you and your opinions of top shelf knives but rather the discussion of Spyderco.

So to sum it up:
1. There were at least two conversations in this thread.
2. You were part of a different conversation.
3. I've already listed the knives I was refering to with comment regarding top shelf knives.
4. This thread needs to die, let it do so, if want my opinions on top shelf production knives feel free to open a new thread asking what everyone thinks, should I have an opinion I wish to share on the matter, I'm sure you will read it there.

Have a nice day. :)
 
Mr. Glesser:

This was uncalled for:

"May I point out that Brownshe is Spyderco's most prolific, consistent, dissenter on the forums, who never misses an opportunity to knock Spyderco."

In the past 6 months I have let at least 10 opportunities pass by where people have complained about the same problems I have. Many of them have been on your "home" forums. This thread is in the open forum and my posts are the factual truth. On this thread, I only posted my warranty experience when asked. You've never been refuted me with facts. Also read my posts, I have supported spyderco many times; particularly in the battles over your FRN handles, single liner construction, kitchen knives, etc.


Per your statement:

I have tried on several occasions to appease his negative fire, but I have failed. My bad.

You want me to be quiet then change your warranty policy back to what it once was. Remember your tag line "fair and honest". However, as a good american, I can also be bribed to let by gones be by gones. I'll shut up if you give me a new Starmate when they come out. You do either and you have my word, I never will post about spydercos again.

Per your statement:

"Lock-backs, especially mid lock-backs are very difficult to make, but they are quite reliable when made properly. "

Why can't spyderco make them reliably? Other companies can do it.

Per your question:
"How many of the knife companies mentioned even make lock-backs? How many are mid lock-backs?"

My cold steel voyager has been through hell and back and is 10 years old mid lock-back. It's been batoned with a brick, driven into a two by four and twisted, etc. It's as tight as a drum. Could have been made in the same factory that used to make your enduras.

By the way, has the management team that allowed the warranty department to fall apart twice in about 6 years been disciplined? Oh yeah, it's a family business, easy to fire the lower level help, not so easy the management.
 
Cornelis Böhms;4125254 said:
Sorry, I was just asking if you use your knives. Every folding knife that has
a life of real use will develop some play over the years. That is inherent to
the construction of a folder. To much play is an other thing.


I have many edc knives that are over 10yrs old that get used and flicked and still no blade play. I wanted to get a SOG trident folder but all 4 i held had excessive play right out of the box.
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I have ~15 Spydercos (so far this includes Jess Horn, Dodo, Calypso, Delica, Meerkat, and Manix) and none have had any blade play - lateral or vertical. In fact the only blade play I have ever had in a folder was in an old Pakistani knife I used to throw a long time ago. Lucky? I don't think so. Do the knives come with some play or does it develop over time? I never use my knives for anything harder than cutting food, cardboard, and some plastic.

My grey Caly which I've been flicking pretty consistently over the past ~2 years has rock solid lockup.
 
brownshoe said:
Mr. Glesser:

This was uncalled for:

...

In the past 6 months I have let at least 10 opportunities pass
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LOL! That is the second funniest thing I have seen today. (Most days it would be the funniest, but there's a clown of rare mental abilities performing in TGB&U today.)
 
Hi Brownshoe,

If you feel that I have been out of line, then I apologise. But It seems to me that when I read your name, I assume a negative post. I'll pay more attention in the future.

Sorry, We won't change the policy back...too many abused it.

Probably won't make the Starmate again, so perhaps another bribe? (Besides, I don't think you can be bribed. Am I overestimating you?)

Besides, I wouldn't want you to stop posting about Spyderco. You are intelligent, articulate and knowledgeable about our line. I just don't think we can be "all bad".

I would also prefer to be on better terms with you. I really don't wish to argue with you about things that may have happened years ago. Spyderco is a work in progress, we do good things, we also make mistakes and try to improve. When we see something that isn't right, we try to make it right. We have a good reputation world wide.

Regarding lock-backs. I introduced Cold Steel to my maker, who makes their locks with our geometry. We use better materials, but their locks are no better than our locks.

What "other" companies are you saying makes better, more reliable lockbacks that Spyderco?

We've changed W&R personnel 3 tmes in the past 6 years. Not ideal, but that happens. We also have 20 year crew. We get lucky once in a while.

Only 2 levels here. 6 managers run the company (including me and Eric), 2 others run other depts. We got rid of all of the innefective managers in 2002 & 03. Yes, that happens too.

truce?

sal
 
Initially I ignored this thread but being that I get the chance more than anyone that regularly posts here to work on knives from most all the major and many minor knife companies as well as many customs to, tear them down and rebuild them, get intimate with them in many other ways or just review them and give critique or feedback on I want to mention just a few things from my perspective to try to shed some light on this thread.

I have made my own frame locks and liner locks for years. One of the reasons I did this was simply for the fact that they are the easiest folder to make. Much easier than a slip joint. Many times easier and more forgiving than a lock back and many many times easier than any of the new "high" tech laser cut out locks like some of the ones being done by major manufacturers in the last 20 years or so. It isn't rocket science to figure this out.

I've made lockbacks. In fact I have often stated around here that they are my favorite type of lock. Particularly the well made ones. From my point of view people seem to have selective eye sight in singling out Spyderco for lockbacks with some vertical give in them. For that matter on the blade play issue you would not believe how many knives come into my shop in any given week that the owners set the pivot tension such that there is blade play in their folder. I see it all the time, especially in Waved knives. I just got an Emerson CQC13 in the mail today and it was set that way, according to the owner of the knife because it waves open easier and to him the little bit of play never kept him from using it for skinning out deer or anything else he wanted to do with it. And he is right. A little blade play won't stop you or cause any reason other than your own opinion to not use the folder.

As to some Spydercos with give. I see it. Sure. I see it in Buck. I see it in CRKT. I see it in BenchMade Axis locks, Cold Steel knives ( I have a couple new in the box never used with blade play from them). This happens. Its always happened.

Here is what I see in a nutshell description.

Take any typical folder and examine it regardless of who makes it. Forget about the lock type for now. Lets say you have it laid out. Three screws in the body, with barrels to pin it together. All 1/8" diameter threaded barrels with 2-56 threaded screws.

One pivot pin barrel 3/16" diameter with 4-40 Pivot screws, one on each side.

Lets take the body barrels first. 1/8" body barrels are a precise .125 diameter. Drill a precise .125 hole and what you get is a slowed down assmebly, blisters on your thumb and repeated droppings of the barrel trying to shove it in the hole you just drilled. In short its a snug fit in one liner let alone trying to get it through a liner, a spacer and another liner without frustration if it even goes in. Not to mention how hard it is to get back out if you need to look at something inside again. Lets not forget the fact that if you order a bag of 1/8" barrels from anywhere that each and everyone in the bag will have different measurements when checked with a digital caliper but still be close enough to be within acceptable tolerances. This has nothing to do with the maker, the manufacturer of the knife or the person responsible for the assembly. Its a part ordered from outside, made to order in mass which means some are bigger and some are smaller in diameter. Occasionally one is missing threads or not threaded correctly also.

Back to topic. What most makers/manufactures do is drill slight oversized holes or machine them with their high tech tools to build knives. Typically you would use a #30 drill for a 1/8" barrels. A #30 drill makes a hole .1285 in diameter. .125 vs .1285 you do the math.

Now lets look at the pivot. Same situation. I won't get into the math. In short the pivot is slightly oversized also. If there is a lock bar guess what? Same scenario. This is not unique to Spyderco. It is everywhere. Over time some materials show wear faster and easier than others. FRN, Micarta, (by itself) G10 by itself, Zytel, all these materials are great space age materials and they provide a great service to mankind but over time pressure and torque, friction and constant use will take what used to be a round hole and make it slightly oblong. Oval shaped if you will, which on top of the fact that the hole was probably oversized to begin with only adds to what may have already had some noticed play before. It happens. I have fixed them, I have had guys send me knives for new pins, to start fresh. Its not the end all fix it though. It happens, even with brass liners, stainless, titanium, or combinations of both.

I hope all this typing puts some answers into this otherwise off track discussion. My fingers are tired and I'm done for a while.

STR
 
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