Blade steel, it's all good.

[bdmicarta]

More apt would be comparing a 200 hp Mercedes to a 500 hp Mercedes when going to the store. As a daily activity, where you are probably following the speed limit or close to it, the extra 300 hp does nothing for you.

I have 400hp. I drive pretty sedately and watch the speed limits closer than 95% of the other drivers, but I frequently do tip into the 400hp.

 

[jdk1]

I could also do a thread for.............1075, and 1095 knives, but those steels are so boring.

I agree , except that last part I've really been amazed, and actually fascinated, by what I've seen from these 'ho hum" steels. I watched in wonder as a lowly 14" Tramontina machete was batonned through a bowling pin. The pin was even riddled with slugs (bullets) and the blade sliced right through. I was able to slice Johnson Grass with the edge afterward. In these days of tight budgets, I'm finding the performance of $5 worth of 1070 mighty interesting! I'm glad you brought up the industrial use, as I believe that's where most of the super steels come from. Take care.

 

[jackknife]

For the most part, it is all marketing hype. They develop the steel (including mystery magical ones like Infi and Carbon-V) just to sell it to you. Most users don't care, and the guys who work hardest with knives, every day of their lives, go with whatever their employers supply. Mont Blanc pens have alot going for them, but just about everyone uses cheap disposable pens for work. The same principle applies here. The only real and unique attribute to these latest and greatest super steals is their ability to empty a collector's wallet.

n2s

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

For the most part, I can agree with this. Snobbery is rampant in any hobby, especially ones where obsession gets out of hand. No matter knife forums, gun forums, car forums, motorcycle forums, whatever. Companies love to come out with an "improved" material to lure you into b using a brand new whatever in spite of the fact there is nothing wrong with the old one. The truth is for most of you here on this forum, you wouldn't know one steel from another in day to day use. Unless you have a job slicing uniform thickness cardboard from the same manufacturer everyday, you spend way more time fondling and admiring your knives than you do cutting things with them. For knife nuts on a blade forum, the knife is part toy, part status symbol, part cult worship. Very little to do with real world cutting.

We account for maybe 1% of the knife buying public. Maybe, on a good day. The rest of the world don't give a holy crap about what the knife is made out of, they just want to cut up their dinner. And they get by very well with knives that most of you wouldn't touch out of snobbery. You have guys in Kenya hacking up hippos's with panga's made out of an old truck spring, and Okapi's made out of some very cheap plain carb on steel. Yet the hippo gets cut up and carried off. Same thing in China, Brazil, and lots of other parts of the world where there's way more important things in life than what kind of knife you have, like living through the day.

It's easy to loose real world perspective when you get obsessed. The truth is, most of us could walk out the door with a just an old pen knife in our pocket, and get through the day very well. Just like driving a Toyota or Honda to work instead of a an over priced Benz. But then you won't have bragging rights. How many of you carry a Mont Blanc pen vs a Bic, Zebra, Papermate or other cheap pen?

Carl.

 

[hardheart]

I agree , except that last part I've really been amazed, and actually fascinated, by what I've seen from these 'ho hum" steels. I watched in wonder as a lowly 14" Tramontina machete was batonned through a bowling pin. The pin was even riddled with slugs (bullets) and the blade sliced right through. I was able to slice Johnson Grass with the edge afterward. In these days of tight budgets, I'm finding the performance of $5 worth of 1070 mighty interesting! I'm glad you brought up the industrial use, as I believe that's where most of the super steels come from. Take care.

That's cool, I was joking . There is a real, measurable, and important difference in steel properties when you change the alloy content. It just isn't so important a lot of the time when it comes to knives. Creep resistance, red hardness, adhesive wear resistance, not that critical in a blade. Even toughness isn't important if the blade isn't used for percussive cutting. Wear resistance is good for those who like it/don't mind the sharpening that eventually comes. I buy knives with 'super' steels because I like knives, but I spent several hours under the hood the last couple of days and the only thing I had to cut was a blister pack on a code reader. I buy tons of knives, but whenever I have to do manual labor I'm using wrenches, ratchets, hammers, etc that cost way less than the components of this hobby.

 

[GatorFlash1]

well tell that to the one whose hunting in Alaska and skinning a thousand pound elk the steel dose matter.

I'm not saying that he doesn't need a real good knife, and better yet a good meat and bone saw. But how many knife users are like him with his needs. I would say he is pretty rare. That link to Joe Talmadge's article about knife styles and steels speaks to the advantages of using good steel in knives. Did you read it?

Queen Mountain Man D2 steel

 

[jackknife]

well tell that to the one whose hunting in Alaska and skinning a thousand pound elk the steel dose matter.

What about the guys who skinned a 2000 pound buffalo with Green River skinning knife? I plain old carbon steel butcher knife did well, and these guys were doing it for a living.

 

[1badcj_7]

This is a troll thread. hes not defending his opinion at all.. hes just tryin to rattle everyones cage lol..

 

[Maddogg774]

For the most part, it is all marketing hype. They develop the steel (including mystery magical ones like Infi and Carbon-V) just to sell it to you.

I wasn't referring to knife companies, I was referring to materials providers like Crucible. Not many steels, save S30V and INFI, were developed for the knife industry. Most were developed for the aerospace industry or tools. In those applications the R&D goal is to keep improving. The difference is apparent with hard use. I agree most users never will experience the difference and thus pay too much for what they will never use. For some, like my S-I-L deployed in Afghanistan, he had a failure with a Aus8A blade. I bought him a ZT 0300 s30v, told him to do the same thing with it that destroyed the first one. It eased thru the task and kept on cutting without a hitch. It's always better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

 

[bdmicarta]

What about the guys who skinned a 2000 pound buffalo with Green River skinning knife? I plain old carbon steel butcher knife did well, and these guys were doing it for a living.

I wasn't there but it would be interesting to know how well that worked. And my understanding is that back in the days of building the transcontinental railroad they were skinning a LOT of buffalo each day. I wonder how easily they skinned the buffalo with their knives and how often they had to sharpen them. Of course we also know that they rode horses to work, probably lived in tents, and the guy shooting the buffalo did it with a black powder single shot rifle. Are we better off now with automotive transportation, nice houses, and repeating cartridge firearms? We are probably better off with good steel in our knives too. I'm not a nostalgic person, I'm happy to have our modern technology whether I really need it or not.

You've probably heard the story about the guy that got a job cutting firewood because he said he would cut twice as much wood as the other guys there. At the end of the day he got the job but he had to admit that he barely cut more wood than the other guys did. The boss wondered what the problem was, cranked up his chainsaw to see if it was running right, when the new employee said "what's that sound?". Yes we can cut firewood with a chainsaw that isn't running but maybe we are better off with a running chainsaw. Yes we can skin a buffalo with an antique iron knife, but how much faster could they skin that same buffalo with one of Bob Dozier's skinning knives in D2?

Also I've noticed sometimes that the guys "doing it for a living" don't always use very good tools. I've watch people painting in my house, doing carpentry work, and I've watched mechanics working in my father's garage. Most use pretty poor tools. I'm frugal with my spending but the few tools that I have are better than most of the tools I've seen professional workers using. (With the exception of paint brushes. Professional painters seem to like using expensive brushes and they know how to take care of them.) I once took a replaceable blade knife away from a countertop worker in my house, threw it away, and gave him the new one I had in my garage. His knife was almost nonfunctional and clearly dangerous to him.

 

[jwolf90]

So you're trying to make the blanket statement that the difference in 440C and high end steels like CPM-154 is "negligible?"

You know what that tells me? You've never used a high end steel in such a way that you can benefit from the composition or hardness of that steel. Grab some ZDP-189, or some M390 (or anything else similar), then grab some 440C or AUS8 - make 400 cuts into some cardboard. Examine the 440C along with the ZDP or M390, THEN try to tell us that the difference is negligible.

Ditto do want to borrow my S90v para2 Some people think sharp is being able to slice paper, I think my knives are starting to dull if I can't slice phnebook cleanly

 

[BePrepared]

As someone who used to use low end knives for skinning (mostly 440c) and who now uses as his primary skinner, either a custom D2 skinner, or a CPM-D2 folder, i can say without hesitation that if you don't think there's a difference, you don't have a clue what you're talking about

I can go through 4 deer without sharpening my current skinners, and still have a working edge. My Buck 768 was dull after 2, and i do mean DULL...

I am not proficient at field sharpening, and don't WANT to be... i would prefer to finish my work, then take my knives HOME for sharpening

so i don't use cheap steel

 

[davek14]

So how does 440c compare to S30v, or elmax, or cpm154?

I would wonder how 440A, or 420HC, or the like would compare to them.

 

[hardheart]

D2 is actually a pretty cheap steel, which is a nice thing. The prevalence in the tool industry means there is a lot of it and it isn't hard to get.

IIRC, Crucible generally puts S30V about 40-50% higher than 440C in wear/CATRA results.

 

[Tim616]

Seriously.

If you like something and you can afford it, and it is INDEED marginally better. Why would you not partake?

Do you wear a Timex or Casio watch if you can afford a Patek or AP?
Do you drive a ford when you can afford an infinity?

Come on Brah.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Whuff. Yes, to some extent many steels will perform somewhat comparably if heat treated well in a variety of different tasks. But it really comes down to what your quotidian uses might be (sorry, just got finished teaching an SAT class, couldn't resist). If they're just slicing open packing tape for a couple boxes here and there, or opening the occasional envelope, etc, then yes, most steels will probably work fine for you. Then again, you're not really challenging the knife. If you're expecting to be able to chop or baton wood, or worse, pry at stuff, and also expect it to still slice and dice with the best of them, well, you've got another think coming if you think all steels are created equal. For any kind of heavy task, your 440 steels may break where other steels will still be going strong.

Do you think you can just take your 1085 knife out and use it regularly on the ocean?

The simple fact of the matter is that different steels are better, often quite a bit so, at different applications. Some are very well rounded at a LOT of applications. Some are specialized for certain applications. Steel type DOES matter, although what you choose depends on your applications.

I think it's great that 440C is working for your applications and needs. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone, and you'd do well to consider that other people don't use their knives in the same way that you do.

And as to Tim's argument about if I can afford to buy something that's only marginally better... well, it depends on whether I need it. Would I buy a Lambourghini if I could afford it, considering that all I do is drive from point A to point B? Not likely. I'll stick to my Subaru. Cheap and reliable, and gets me from point A to point B with a minimum of fuss (and a minimum of getting pulled over by the cops for going 2 mph over the speed limit). Blowing your wad on things that you can afford, but don't need, when there's something else that gets the job done at a much better price point is a great way to end up going bankrupt. I buy only the things that I really need or want. If 440C does well for the OP, I for one don't think he should be forced to try a different steel.

On a completely unrelated note, when did it become cool to call people "brah"? I mean, basically, we just saw one dude call another dude a name that's frighteningly similar to that of a ladies undergarment, and not even intend it to be an insult. I just find that weird. /digression.

 

[bdmicarta]

As someone who used to use low end knives for skinning (mostly 440c) and who now uses as his primary skinner, either a custom D2 skinner, or a CPM-D2 folder, i can say without hesitation that if you don't think there's a difference, you don't have a clue what you're talking about

I can go through 4 deer without sharpening my current skinners, and still have a working edge. My Buck 768 was dull after 2, and i do mean DULL...

For some reason I was thinking about this thread this afternoon and I remembered something I was told many years ago. This was from the late 1960's or maybe early 1970's. My father had a friend who had been a hunting guide and was moving. He gave my father some elk meat from his freezer and an almost new Gerber folding hunting knife. The knife had an unusual shape for the day, a wide blade with a lot of belly like a normal skinning knife. It sort of looked like the current ZT 300 knives. The story goes that this guide used a simlar Gerber in his work and said it held an edge much longer than other knives he used. IIRC the Gerber used 440C. I also remember looking at Gerber catalogs or literature from that time or slightly after and they had some presentation fixed blade hunting knives of a similar style with wide skinning blades and finger grooved wooden handles. What I remember now from that time is that this fixed blade knife was available in stainless, probably 440C, but also in some form of carbon tool steel. They stated that the Rockwell hardness of the carbon steel blade was a couple of points higher than the hardness of the stainless steel blade. I thought Rockwell hardness was the ultimate measure of edge holding and therefore that knife must be the ultimate skinner. I don't know why I had forgotten all of that until just now.

 

[matt123abc]

All steels are good. But some are amazing, like the m390 found in my recently acquired para 2

 

[Dan57]

So you're trying to make the blanket statement that the difference in 440C and high end steels like CPM-154 is "negligible?"

You know what that tells me? You've never used a high end steel in such a way that you can benefit from the composition or hardness of that steel. Grab some ZDP-189, or some M390 (or anything else similar), then grab some 440C or AUS8 - make 400 cuts into some cardboard. Examine the 440C along with the ZDP or M390, THEN try to tell us that the difference is negligible.

When's the last time you had to make 400 cuts into a piece of cardboard?

 

[EZ Bake]

When's the last time you had to make 400 cuts into a piece of cardboard?

You've obviously never spent any serious time building a kick-ass fort.

 

[manowar669]

I've been surprised by some "cheaper" steel, so some of what the OP says is true. And most people would be well served by 440C type steel or better. In fact, I carry Vic Saks a lot, and their blades hold up to most things. Sometimes I think, "that's gonna be dull" and the blade is still sharp. If it IS dull, A couple of swipes on a sharpmaker, and I'm back in business. I have a $11 Mora in 12C27 steel, and I went thru 3 deer last year without sharpening, breastbones, hide, everything a "field dress" entails, and that knife still shaved. I was impressed. I could throw that knife away and get another each season if I wanted. Ho hum steel, good performance. Supersteels a few years ago are "garbage" today. I have knives with supersteels, and I don't use them. Why? Not too many working designs in supersteels. Nobody who works with a knife regularly wants to spend a lot of time bringing the edge back. I see longshoreman, and fisherman using Moras. Lumberjacks and woodworkers using "cheap" carbon steels. It all depends on your needs. It's cool to have a sprint run of a supersteel in a nice model of something and marvel at its performance, but until it can cut rocks, it'll dull.