Blade steel, it's all good.

[Sonnydaze]

My 440c knife cuts things just like the S30v, or elmax, or cpm154. It makes so little difference.

I just knew I shouldn't spend so much for a Paramilitary 2 with S90v. Several times... This super-steel thing; it's all a Commie plot.
Sonny

 

[singularity35]

I just knew I shouldn't spend so much for a Paramilitary 2 with S90v. Several times... This super-steel thing; it's all a Commie plot.
Sonny

The Priori of Scion would like you to think that...

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Just go buy an INFI blade and forget about it... once you go INFI, you never go back... unless you suck, then you go back, but who here wants to admit to sucking?

(that's known as "the argument from intimidation", for the philosophy students in the audience)

Or, to be more technical, ad hominem. Yep, that's right. I went there.

 

[frenchmade]

So you're trying to make the blanket statement that the difference in 440C and high end steels like CPM-154 is "negligible?"

You know what that tells me? You've never used a high end steel in such a way that you can benefit from the composition or hardness of that steel. Grab some ZDP-189, or some M390 (or anything else similar), then grab some 440C or AUS8 - make 400 cuts into some cardboard. Examine the 440C along with the ZDP or M390, THEN try to tell us that the difference is negligible.

knew you would chime in here. The man who's avatar is a microscopic photo of a blade whittling hair!
This is another one of those threads I guess.

 

[Urban Dweller]

From my hero knifemaker Joe Talmadge-

http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml

I think it depends on what kind of cutting your are doing. How many folks cut carrots as opposed to skinning an Elk?

Great article, thanks for that link..

 

[hardheart]

The funny thing about 440C is that owners complained it was too hard to sharpen. Yes, 440C was too wear resistant and a 'super' steel at one time. I don't know what changes were made to beef up cardboard boxes and rope since those days, but that stuff must have also gotten tougher to make 440C crappier.

I never do like the term 'low quality' steel being mentioned in these threads. There's no proper delineation. For folding knives and fixed blades, what I consider 'high' quality excludes several of the steels mentioned. Some steels are across the board superior in properties we usually discuss. More wear resistance, coupled with more toughness, coupled with more corrosion resistance, coupled with all this at a higher hardness. Or steels that are equivalent in some factors and superior in others, so still maintaining clear superiority. Then there are steels that have high numbers in one and poor numbers in another. Try to get more wear resistant than 15V, REX 121, S125V, etc. Now try and find steels less tough after proper tempering. Find something tougher than Staminal, S5, 5160, etc. Now find something with less wear resistance. Seeing INFI or D2 called high quality is always a weird thing for me because of that. On balance, or in one measure, they are pretty good. But there are steels that totally outperform, outperform in that specific measure, or have an even better balance imo. Liking 52100 and not ignoring it for 3V, Vanadis 4, or similar strikes me as odd. Baselining at 154CM or VG10 when S30V is about as common doesn't seem quite right. Taking S30V when S90V is out there is also coming up short. On and on. The bar for quality is an individual thing, and is a goalpost that moves from one end of the field to the other to suit whoever is making whatever argument.

 

[Joshua J.]

Seriously.

If you like something and you can afford it, and it is INDEED marginally better. Why would you not partake?

Do you wear a Timex or Casio watch if you can afford a Patek or AP?
Do you drive a ford when you can afford an infinity?

Come on Brah.

Point of diminishing returns.

I used to have every high end Spyderco Military sprint model there was, but in the end my OLFA does pretty much everything the Military did, and is in some ways superior.

I could be wearing something with a top of the line ETA movement right now, but after looking at how inflated the prices are on mechanical watches (that industry is messed up) I bought a few reputable Chinese watches instead ($75 each). One keeps time extremely well, averaging just over +1 Second Per Day, and the other is well within COSC standards. They are lacking in a few ways, but the price to performance ratio is incredible.

Why bother owning something that comes with so much added risk (loss, damage, theft) when you can use something that performs effectively the same at a small fraction of the cost?

For the most part, it is all marketing hype. They develop the steel (including mystery magical ones like Infi and Carbon-V) just to sell it to you. Most users don't care, and the guys who work hardest with knives, every day of their lives, go with whatever their employers supply. Mont Blanc pens have alot going for them, but just about everyone uses cheap disposable pens for work. The same principle applies here. The only real and unique attribute to these latest and greatest super steals is their ability to empty a collector's wallet.

n2s

Your analogy with the Mont Blanc is a little off. Comparing a $500 fountain pen with a ball point pen is like comparing a pocket knife with a stamping machine. They achieve similar results, but the mechanisms are different. Once you're comparing apples to apples, saying that a $10 fountain pen can write just as well as a $500 fountain pen, then you've got a statement comparable to saying that a $10 knife can be made just as sharp as a $500 knife. In both cases all that is needed for optimal performance is half decent materials and a good understanding of the required geometry. Where the analogy drops off is that there's just a few more characteristics that only mildly affect writing performance in the pen (counting the ink and paper as separate issues), where sharpness is just one of many characteristics of steel that can affect performance.

The trouble is that the variables surrounding what makes a good knife steel are not fully understood. We can take guesses, see what happens when you improve one attribute or another, but coming to solid conclusions is very difficult (mostly because knives are directly operated by people).
That we have many high performance and incredibly good steel types in use today is unquestionable. Whether or not the improved attributes they bring to the table are useful to your specific application is highly debatable, and that's half the reason you see so much fuss and hoopla about them. We're exploring the unknown, reaching into new frontiers. It's all very exciting stuff and people like to see for themselves (which is why I have a kiln and a few bars of the highest alloy steel I can get my hands on sitting in the toolshed).
If you're just trying to point out that the newfangled steel types have made little impact on the basic function of a knife, I heartily agree. If you actually think that people are putting expensive and difficult to work with steel into knives not expecting to see any benefit to the end user, you might want to loosen the tinfoil hat a bit (I do think there are plenty of good reasons to wear one, this just isn't one of them).

 

[lutejones]

What began as a very rude post with the "steel is in your head" thing, ended up like a very nice and polite discussion and that's why this site is so cool.
I've tried some new quality steels, non top end, but generally consider as quality steels like vg-10 and S30V, and for me they are not worthy and I'll explain:
maybe if you have to do the same cutting job over and over you'll see the advantages like making 400 cut into cardboard instead of 200, but for me that's not the case, i'm more likely to need now cutting some cardboard and maybe hit an staple in the middle, then at a BBQ some meat and hit a rib bone, and then some plastic evil blisters, etc. That's what EDC means to me. In that scenario where EVERY knife gets dull, I prefer the easy of sharpen one over the mega steel, non to mention the chipping on the harder steels.

I'm moving to another town and my bench stones are at the old house, i always carry with me a DC4 sharpener though, yesterday I sharpened a C75 steel Barlow knife and a S30V Para 2 from DMT coarse all the way to mirror polish with 8000 japanese waterstone and strop, while I'm at home for some days, the Spyderco took DOUBLE OR MORE time to get to the point of sharpness I wanted. So, for me It's not and advantage the super steel because when you have to do a job that dulls a knife, it dulls every knife and every steel and to put back a razor edge in one of those is sometimes a pain in certain place, while a good "old" steel like case's of solingen's C75 will be back to razor sharp with a couple of swipes on the ceramic side of the fallkniven stone and the portable strop.

Besides carbon steel is perfect for cutting and It's only a problem when collecting, if you actually carry and use the knife every day taking a minimun care the knife will not rust(letting away extreme enviroments).
Nice thread in the end
Mateo

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

It's worth noting that many ultra-premium steels don't cost much more than more basic steels in terms of material cost with regards to a knife. What often makes the real difference in production cost is how hard that steel is to machine. More wear resistant steel = more machining time = more tooling costs = higher product costs. This ignores manufacturer markup, of course.

 

[Tim616]

Point of diminishing returns.

I used to have every high end Spyderco Military sprint model there was, but in the end my OLFA does pretty much everything the Military did, and is in some ways superior.

I could be wearing something with a top of the line ETA movement right now, but after looking at how inflated the prices are on mechanical watches (that industry is messed up) I bought a few reputable Chinese watches instead ($75 each). One keeps time extremely well, averaging just over +1 Second Per Day, and the other is well within COSC standards. They are lacking in a few ways, but the price to performance ratio is incredible.

Why bother owning something that comes with so much added risk (loss, damage, theft) when you can use something that performs effectively the same at a small fraction of the cost?

Because you can, and because you enjoy it. If I gave you an Audemars Piguet Royal Oak right now, (hypothetical situation of course) with a Jaeger le coultre in house movement, and told you that you could never sell it, would you still wear the other watch just because it got the job done, or would you relish in knowing you have a superior product, even if it did the same job...?

If I can have a knife with s30v instead of a knife with aus 8, I'm taking s30v every single time. Maybe it's only a little bit better than a mid level old timey steel, it's still better.

If you can have better, you should have better, why short yourself in life.

 

[Buffalohump]

Once you get into custom knives you'll find that many makers will use high end steels as readily as low end steels and not charge you any extra. Seems the height of foolishness to me to choose a low end steel when you can get a super steel for the same price. There is absolutely no disadvantage to having a better steel. You will spend less time sharpening your knife and more time cutting with it. Anyone who says he doesnt mind sharpening his knife is talking through his hat. That's like saying I dont mind stopping to fill my car with gas. Its a schlep. So why not eliminate it from the process as far as humanly possible?

Knife collecting is a great hobby because its truly a 'cutting edge' industry (scuse the pun). Innovation is as close to knifemaking as it is to Formula One racing. In how many other industries do you find materials like titanium and carbon fiber used to such a great extent? Unless you are really into traditionals and couldnt give a rat's ass about the blade steel (beyond whether its carbon or stainless) then you are missing out on one of the most interesting and exciting aspects of the whole game.

 

[crom]

blah blah blah I had you mixed up with somebody else and tried to get a dig in, sorry. But I do use my knives and I am not a collector by any stretch of the word.

Edit: my current edc is an M4 steel knife, perfectly aware of its advantages over something like chinese steel. My pointr was it seems a LOT (not all) of people chasing the super steels are doing it for reasons other than the NEED for the steel. It seems to me it's more of a status symbol to most folks here.



I got this in March with nary a scratch on the blade, this pic is now a month old, I use it daily and not for edge retention testing. For you to presume I don't use my knives is for me to presume you're a pretentious youtuber who has more money than they know what to do with.
My apologies, I thought you were crimsontideshooter, I feel like an ass, go ahead and take a free punch.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

My pointr was it seems a LOT (not all) of people chasing the super steels are doing it for reasons other than the NEED for the steel. It seems to me it's more of a status symbol to most folks here.

I would not be surprised if this were the truth at all.

This particular topic was rather timely for me in particular, because I was looking to see if there was a steel out there (besides INFI, so don't even go there, Chris ) that would hold an edge better and longer than 5160, while still retaining good toughness and impact resistance. Fortunately, it sounds like CPM 3V might be my cup of tea (3V gladius, anyone?). I can't imagine trying to get the same performance out of, say, 440C, or 15N20 or something. I've broken my fair share of stainless short swords in my life (although I'm pretty sure the HT on those sucked).

But if your point was that many people probably don't NEED their super steels, I wouldn't be surprised if that were true. Still, if they like the extra performance and they want to spend their money, I'm certainly not going to criticize them, just like I wouldn't criticize the OP if 440C does the job for him. It's their money, and their collections. For me, I like to push the envelope of what's possible with the blades I make, so I'm going to occasionally make a blade design I like out of better quality steel than the "good enough" 1095 and 5160 I usually use.

 

[arty]

As someone who used to use low end knives for skinning (mostly 440c) and who now uses as his primary skinner, either a custom D2 skinner, or a CPM-D2 folder, i can say without hesitation that if you don't think there's a difference, you don't have a clue what you're talking about

I can go through 4 deer without sharpening my current skinners, and still have a working edge. My Buck 768 was dull after 2, and i do mean DULL...

I am not proficient at field sharpening, and don't WANT to be... i would prefer to finish my work, then take my knives HOME for sharpening

so i don't use cheap steel

I don't believe that 440C is "cheap" steel. If the heat treat is done properly, it should be close to 154cm. I prefer the edge holding of VG10 and 154CM to 440C, but the stuff is not junk. 440 C will take a fine edge, and I wouldn't be surprised if D2 actually costs less to buy. I have a number of knives in D2 and 440C, and I admit that there have been times when I wanted better edge holding from the 440C, but this was when fishing. I'd rather have 440C than D2 for fishing. However, I'd rather have a fishing knife in VG10 than 440C.

 

[GatorFlash1]

Great article, thanks for that link..

You are welcome. I've seen this topic dozens of times with similar reactions. I can't speak for anyone but myself. I'll pay a little more for a knife with supposedly better steel. Not because I necessarily positively know I need it but because it gives me a bit of insurance (at least in my mind) should I have a need for it. You also have to remember there are two types of knife makers, the mass producers and the custom dudes. Each has a type of steel that meets his production needs and they are often not the same.

So many knives (steels), so little money!

http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml

 

[wackafew]

If anyone has any old Buck knives made from that crappy 440C please send them to me... just sayin.

 

[jdk1]

It's worth noting that many ultra-premium steels don't cost much more than more basic steels in terms of material cost with regards to a knife. What often makes the real difference in production cost is how hard that steel is to machine. More wear resistant steel = more machining time = more tooling costs = higher product costs. This ignores manufacturer markup, of course.

I was wondering about this. People are acting like expensive knives cost 10X as much as run of the mill knives due to the cost of steel. I have no clue what some of these numbers and letters I'm reading about cost. I would guess most of these high-end knives cost so much because the maker spends a lot of time making them, or just charges a lot (people do these sorts of things). I bet most people also buy them for the quality or features more than the "exotic" steel advantages. I'm sure some buy for the bragging rights, to each his own. I don't have a problem with people spending as much as they want on whatever they want, though judging by what I see around here I would guess the economy is doing much better than I thought. I would hate to think someone is living paycheck to paycheck and buying a $400 knife to cut cardboard. There also seems confusion on what a super steel is. I'm no steel junkie, but it seems D2 is pretty common, so I'm confused by some of this. Maybe a maker can chime in and open our eyes about what exotic steel really adds to the price and why. So far I'm enjoying this thread and learning something

 

[jdk1]

Gatorflash, your "bit of insurance" statement is something I can agree with you on. I've seen with my own eyes that a 14" Tramontina bush machete will do everything I need in a big outdoor blade (Central/South Texas), but I would take my Junglas for that "bit of insurance". But I will say that extremely cheap machete performance made me re-evaluate my plan for any future purchases. As I told a friend, I'm going to become a Tramontina fanboy. I can have the complete collection for like $50!

 

[hardheart]

If I gave you an Audemars Piguet Royal Oak right now, (hypothetical situation of course) with a Jaeger le coultre in house movement, and told you that you could never sell it, would you still wear the other watch just because it got the job done, or would you relish in knowing you have a superior product, even if it did the same job...?

If I can have a knife with s30v instead of a knife with aus 8, I'm taking s30v every single time. Maybe it's only a little bit better than a mid level old timey steel, it's still better.

If you can have better, you should have better, why short yourself in life.

This is really a bad analogy for steel, again. I have a $100 G-Shock that withstands water, shock, and fouling from dirt. It has world time, atomic clock sync, solar charging, stopwatch, timer, multiple alarms. It is tougher, lasts longer, more accurate, and does more. It would be the super steel, while W2, a low alloy, no corrosion resistance, minimal wear resistant steel done up with a clay quench by a master smith to produce a beautiful hamon would be the high end movement. You don't buy that sort of thing for steel performance. An actual steel junky translated to watches would not take a mechanical or automatic. That is old tech, it is less durable, it is less accurate, it has less features. The appeal is that it takes a lot of work to get something operational, but the level of performance does not reach the more modern and more highly developed. The jewelry surrounding the movement would be the handle material, sheath or lock, etc. The movement makes the watch work, the steel makes the knife work. The name, the other materials, none of it does the cutting.

Some steels cost more than others, a five time price increase between two 'super' steels, close to ten times for 'low end' vs 'high end'. But I have custom knives with steels that have an order of magnitude more wear resistance than the S30V in a Sebenza and costs one third less. A steel junky gets whatever features they want on a knife, but they firstly focus on steel. Price doesn't usually have a lot to do with it. The most expensive knives out there have very, very little vanadium in their blade steels.

Anyone who says he doesnt mind sharpening his knife is talking through his hat. That's like saying I dont mind stopping to fill my car with gas. Its a schlep. So why not eliminate it from the process as far as humanly possible?

A lot of us like sharpening. It isn't putting in gas, it's rebuilding the engine and squeezing out more horsepower or torque. It's tweaking the geometry, the finish, experimenting with convexity, multiple relief bevels, trying plates, stones, strops, jigs, belts, wheels, etc. Some people are crazy enough to collect knives. Other people are crazy enough to practice sharpening.

 

[Maddogg774]

I'm still buying an Andrew Demko ad-10 in M4 and every Busse Swamp Rat and Scrap Yard I can.