Blade steel, it's all good.

[FortyTwoBlades]

For cutting lots and lots of boxes...utility knives are actually pretty much ideal. Extremely thin stock with a very narrow edge angle. When dulled, blades are easily and quickly swapped. And blades CAN be resharpened, so it's not like you necessarily need to dispose of the dulled ones if you don't like the idea of throwing them out. I resharpen mine all the time. I just need to finally invest in a decent one.

 

[jdk1]

Actually no one else carries a knife besides me, I'm the shipment manager though, so no one has to go through 100's of boxes per week, the first 2-3 weeks I did use Benchmade Vex, but it just didn't cut it, switched to a ZDP-189 Delica (didn't like the saber grind that much, but there was a very noticeable edge holding difference, even though the Vex had the better geometry). When they need to cut something/a lot of something they struggle with cheap wal-mart scissors that are they can really only "chew" through string/cardboard other people use their keys to open things sometimes, although they're cutting (breaking/ripping actually) tape just to open the box not break it down. I do carry a SAK as well, but its mostly for the screwdriver and smaller blade for use in front of customers or loner for lighter jobs like cutting wrapping/tissue paper off of items.

I fully understand the desire to carry and use something different for all sorts of reasons. It could be to get more hands on experience with the blade you plan to always have and use, or just because it makes you happy. I'm good with all of that, but most shipping department employees use utility knives. As 42Blades (darn you for stealing my ideas and posting them first) said, a utility knife with the removable or break-off razor blades would likely be a vast improvement over the fanciest knives made of the best super steel. For $20 you could probably equip all those other people without blades as well. Again, using it for the sake of using it makes perfect sense to me. I've used a khukuri and a Junglas regularly to clean bushes and palm trees around the house for no other reason than I like those blades. But, it doesn't really make sense to say I must have super steel because I cut boxes and don't have time to sharpen. No offense meant. If you said you use a BUSSE Killa Zilla to cut pallets, I'd say awesome and ask for pics Take care.

 

[arty]

When I have a lot of boxes to break down, I reach for one of those boxcutters that takes single edged razor blades. The blade lasts a long time before you need to reverse the blade. These suckers cost about $1.50 now and do a better job on cardboard than any knife I own.....it is the blade geometry.

 

[hardheart]

Price really just isn't the issue, nor is the name brand or build quality. You can get S30V knives for $50, or $500 bucks. You can spend $100 an inch on a damascus blade, and it will not outperform a 440C blade. You can spend over $5000 on that 440C blade depending on who made it.

The comparisons to watches and cars doesn't work based on price. Someone can try to feel high end for carrying a $600 knife, but there are $10,000, $30,000, $80,000 folders out there. Knives can and do cost just as much as watches, cars, and even homes, and the performance of the steel has no impact at these price levels. Under $50, pickings are slim for the super steel crowd. At around $150 where most of us enthusiasts seem to remain comfortable buying, you get all the steels also used in long production run knives at four times the price.

 

[Ankerson]

I use both, knives and box cutters..

I use the box cutter for crap and cutting around metal, for everything else I use a knife.

 

[not2sharp]

Price really just isn't the issue, nor is the name brand or build quality. ...

I long suspected that the chief culprit is simply that knives are rather boring. We may like them, but there isn't a whole lot to say about a modern factory knife. Once you get past the who made it, what may have inspred them, and what it might be used for, you have a couple of paragraphs down on paper that could easily been pagarized word-for-word from a thousand other knife stories. There isn't a whole lot of technical jargon, specifications or construction details of the kind that comes up when we talk about most modern appliances; no MPG, decible output, votage consumption, component lifespan, lift capacity, turning radius, accuracy, etc. etc. etc. About the only thing on a knife that is worthy of a spec sheet is the blade material, which is probably why it is so frequently changed and so prominantly featured.

It is likely to remain that way until someone devises standards that would provide something more to say about the knife. Perhaps we can establish a test where we apply a know amount of pressure against the edge as we run 1/2 the blade length accross a 1/4 inch thick lead bar; we can then measure the depth of the resulting cut as a relative cutting index. Perhaps we could measure the performance again after 200 runs to get a read on edge retention/wear. The abscense of other relevant objective criteria is why we talk so much about knife steels.

n2s

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

*snip
n2s

Interesting point you raise here. I think there's actually quite a bit more than just the blade steel to talk about (blade geometry, ergonomics, balance, edge geometry, etc), but I think you're right to point to the lack of standards. It's not like we have much in the way of specific jargon and contextual language to use when explaining why one knife cuts better than the other. I think it's telling that when we hear people talking about why one blade cuts better than another, it's just about some unspecified "blade geometry," with very little in the way of actual facts behind it. About as close as it gets is when folks like Ankerson talk about the amount of material behind the edge, etc. Very few people talk about the actual geometry behind blade shape in context of supporting a cut, or even about things like handle ergonomics. Yet those features are present, and often important, when we think about what we want out of a knife.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

knew you would chime in here. The man who's avatar is a microscopic photo of a blade whittling hair!
This is another one of those threads I guess.

Your point?

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

You foolishly assume that every time I pull my knife out a camera is rolling. Can't think outside of your own fantasy huh?

blah blah blah I had you mixed up with somebody else and tried to get a dig in, sorry. But I do use my knives and I am not a collector by any stretch of the word.

Edit: my current edc is an M4 steel knife, perfectly aware of its advantages over something like chinese steel. My pointr was it seems a LOT (not all) of people chasing the super steels are doing it for reasons other than the NEED for the steel. It seems to me it's more of a status symbol to most folks here.

View attachment 290281

I got this in March with nary a scratch on the blade, this pic is now a month old, I use it daily and not for edge retention testing. For you to presume I don't use my knives is for me to presume you're a pretentious youtuber who has more money than they know what to do with.
My apologies, I thought you were crimsontideshooter, I feel like an ass, go ahead and take a free punch.

 

[tinstaafl93]

you guys can use any steel you want to and if some knuckle head wants to call you out for it, just laugh at him, I carry cpm m4 deal with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hardheart]

I long suspected that the chief culprit is simply that knives are rather boring. We may like them, but there isn't a whole lot to say about a modern factory knife. Once you get past the who made it, what may have inspred them, and what it might be used for, you have a couple of paragraphs down on paper that could easily been pagarized word-for-word from a thousand other knife stories. There isn't a whole lot of technical jargon, specifications or construction details of the kind that comes up when we talk about most modern appliances; no MPG, decible output, votage consumption, component lifespan, lift capacity, turning radius, accuracy, etc. etc. etc. About the only thing on a knife that is worthy of a spec sheet is the blade material, which is probably why it is so frequently changed and so prominantly featured.

It is likely to remain that way until someone devises standards that would provide something more to say about the knife. Perhaps we can establish a test where we apply a know amount of pressure against the edge as we run 1/2 the blade length accross a 1/4 inch thick lead bar; we can then measure the depth of the resulting cut as a relative cutting index. Perhaps we could measure the performance again after 200 runs to get a read on edge retention/wear. The abscense of other relevant objective criteria is why we talk so much about knife steels.

n2s

Interesting point you raise here. I think there's actually quite a bit more than just the blade steel to talk about (blade geometry, ergonomics, balance, edge geometry, etc), but I think you're right to point to the lack of standards. It's not like we have much in the way of specific jargon and contextual language to use when explaining why one knife cuts better than the other. I think it's telling that when we hear people talking about why one blade cuts better than another, it's just about some unspecified "blade geometry," with very little in the way of actual facts behind it. About as close as it gets is when folks like Ankerson talk about the amount of material behind the edge, etc. Very few people talk about the actual geometry behind blade shape in context of supporting a cut, or even about things like handle ergonomics. Yet those features are present, and often important, when we think about what we want out of a knife.

There are actually many research papers on edge life and geometry, and I'm working on one myself based on 16 purpose built test blades run through the CATRA with multiple edge finishes and angles. The most telling thing when comparing the results to other CATRA numbers for various alloys is that it is very easy to replicate the cut number of even the most highly alloyed steel that I am personally aware of being tested with a steel that has less than one third the carbon and no reported vanadium alloy content. And from what I know of two separate tests run on that super high alloy, the difference between the two blades with the same steel was 167%. Geometry makes the difference. For the tests I had done, changing edge geometry without changing alloy, heat treat, or sharpening method could increase performance by up to 400%. The same steel/heat treat sharpened two different ways gave a 1048% improvement in cut number.

Steel affects performance, but geometry does at a whole other level.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

you guys can use any steel you want to and if some knuckle head wants to call you out for it, just laugh at him, I carry cpm m4 deal with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buy what you like, use what you like. That's all that matters.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Hardheart, I would be very interested in reading that once you are done

 

[davek14]

There are actually many research papers on edge life and geometry, and I'm working on one myself based on 16 purpose built test blades run through the CATRA with multiple edge finishes and angles. The most telling thing when comparing the results to other CATRA numbers for various alloys is that it is very easy to replicate the cut number of even the most highly alloyed steel that I am personally aware of being tested with a steel that has less than one third the carbon and no reported vanadium alloy content. And from what I know of two separate tests run on that super high alloy, the difference between the two blades with the same steel was 167%. Geometry makes the difference. For the tests I had done, changing edge geometry without changing alloy, heat treat, or sharpening method could increase performance by up to 400%. The same steel/heat treat sharpened two different ways gave a 1048% improvement in cut number.

Steel affects performance, but geometry does at a whole other level.

I also would love to read that.

Is it just basically sharpening to a small angle and not a lot of steel behind that angle like in a flat ground blade, or is there a whole lot more?

 

[sherlockbonez]

I fully understand the desire to carry and use something different for all sorts of reasons. It could be to get more hands on experience with the blade you plan to always have and use, or just because it makes you happy. I'm good with all of that, but most shipping department employees use utility knives. As 42Blades (darn you for stealing my ideas and posting them first) said, a utility knife with the removable or break-off razor blades would likely be a vast improvement over the fanciest knives made of the best super steel. For $20 you could probably equip all those other people without blades as well. Again, using it for the sake of using it makes perfect sense to me. I've used a khukuri and a Junglas regularly to clean bushes and palm trees around the house for no other reason than I like those blades. But, it doesn't really make sense to say I must have super steel because I cut boxes and don't have time to sharpen. No offense meant. If you said you use a BUSSE Killa Zilla to cut pallets, I'd say awesome and ask for pics Take care.

I have to agree. I used to work in a food factory and disposable box cutters are not allowed in case a piece falls into the food. I would say out of 1000 employees or so, most carried a SAK. Many are razor sharpen, but also many are knock offs or misused and are very dull. Then there are bunch of folders, with BM grip and sog flash 1 are 2 that's in mind. It is always the 60 hours work week when you barely have time to take a shower is when you use your knife the hardest and when you have least time to sharpen. Thats when super steel offers no advantage.

When you are up in a cabin hunting or fishing for a week, I personally find super steel knifes much harder to sharpen. A little pocket stone will bring a keen edge, enough for regular chores like cutting up veg and bacon, cleaning a some large and small game, maybe some simple stuff like making a pot holder from a sapling. You need an arsenal to sharpen a super steel, with fine and medium, or maybe some diamond stone.

For all you guys that have honed your skills with super steel, go pick up a cheap carbon steel knife and be amazed at what you can do. I'm a firm believer that blade geometry and handle ergonomics are of equal importance in a knife. One "test" I always try is cutting up winter squash. I usually make curry with early season goose we shoot here with butternut and peppercorn squash. These are hard, binding material. I would say many of the best super steel knifes would have a hard time keeping up with a well sharpened kitchen knife. The problem is blade thickness, its like trying to cut sapling with a splitting maul.

I agree that blade material is very important, knife that don't take an edge is useless. But when you look at a surgeon's knife, they are not made from some exotic material yet they cut cleaning and precisely. I would venture to say that butchers around the world, from North and South America to Europe to Asia and Africa, no one has a super steel knife at work. These people make long body length cuts repetitively day after day. Probably one of the cut-e-est job in the world where your entire work day involve a knife in hand. If super thick, exotic materials on knifes are such an advantage that it is worth several times the cost of their current knifes, they would all have one. I just can't picture some Argentinian ranchero carrying a some fancy knife then discuss at length to his buddy about micro chips and inclusive angles.

I love the fact that knife industry is doing well in this economy, and so much time and effort is made to further our understanding of blade materials. Hopefully one day our dream (I know all of you have the same dream!) of having a knife that is super tough, can cutting through almost anything and never needs to be sharpened will be achieved. (And guns that don't need to buy ammo for while we're at it)

 

[hardheart]

Is it just basically sharpening to a small angle and not a lot of steel behind that angle like in a flat ground blade, or is there a whole lot more?

Yep. Nothing on a knife cuts except where the two sides of the blade meet at the apex. All the other material is in the way of cutting, but provides strength, stiffness and toughness. Think of a wire cheese cutter, all that is needed to cut is the wire, but the frame behind it is necessary to keep the wire straight and prevent it from flopping around instead of cutting through the cheese. The amount of steel you need to get a job done without destroying your knife is all you should have in front of the handle. The least force needed to make a cut will come with the thinnest blade stock, ground to the thinnest dimensions before sharpening, and sharpened at the lowest angle.

Tactical knives today are often sold on being thick and heavy duty, but that does nothing to improve cutting ability, no matter the alloy.

 

[Bill1170]

Yep. Nothing on a knife cuts except where the two sides of the blade meet at the apex. All the other material is in the way of cutting, but provides strength, stiffness and toughness. Think of a wire cheese cutter, all that is needed to cut is the wire, but the frame behind it is necessary to keep the wire straight and prevent it from flopping around instead of cutting through the cheese. The amount of steel you need to get a job done without destroying your knife is all you should have in front of the handle. The least force needed to make a cut will come with the thinnest blade stock, ground to the thinnest dimensions before sharpening, and sharpened at the lowest angle.

Tactical knives today are often sold on being thick and heavy duty, but that does nothing to improve cutting ability, no matter the alloy.

In fewer words, "Thin is in." Tom Krein better prepare himself for a deluge once this gets out!

 

[Ankerson]

I have to agree. I used to work in a food factory and disposable box cutters are not allowed in case a piece falls into the food. I would say out of 1000 employees or so, most carried a SAK. Many are razor sharpen, but also many are knock offs or misused and are very dull. Then there are bunch of folders, with BM grip and sog flash 1 are 2 that's in mind. It is always the 60 hours work week when you barely have time to take a shower is when you use your knife the hardest and when you have least time to sharpen. Thats when super steel offers no advantage.

Except for the fact that the knife in the super steel wouldn't have to be sharpened all that often.

When you are up in a cabin hunting or fishing for a week, I personally find super steel knifes much harder to sharpen. A little pocket stone will bring a keen edge, enough for regular chores like cutting up veg and bacon, cleaning a some large and small game, maybe some simple stuff like making a pot holder from a sapling. You need an arsenal to sharpen a super steel, with fine and medium, or maybe some diamond stone.

Not really, once the edge bevel is set they are really no harder to sharpen than most other steels, that's if they would even need to be touched up at all.

And if they did something like a ceramic rod that works on the simple steels works just as well on the super steels.

For all you guys that have honed your skills with super steel, go pick up a cheap carbon steel knife and be amazed at what you can do. I'm a firm believer that blade geometry and handle ergonomics are of equal importance in a knife. One "test" I always try is cutting up winter squash. I usually make curry with early season goose we shoot here with butternut and peppercorn squash. These are hard, binding material. I would say many of the best super steel knifes would have a hard time keeping up with a well sharpened kitchen knife. The problem is blade thickness, its like trying to cut sapling with a splitting maul.

That depends on the knife and I wouldn't be amazed what those cheap steels can do because I have seen what well made knives in the better steels can do.

Nothing really amazing at all really in fact.

I agree that blade material is very important, knife that don't take an edge is useless. But when you look at a surgeon's knife, they are not made from some exotic material yet they cut cleaning and precisely. I would venture to say that butchers around the world, from North and South America to Europe to Asia and Africa, no one has a super steel knife at work. These people make long body length cuts repetitively day after day. Probably one of the cut-e-est job in the world where your entire work day involve a knife in hand. If super thick, exotic materials on knifes are such an advantage that it is worth several times the cost of their current knifes, they would all have one. I just can't picture some Argentinian ranchero carrying a some fancy knife then discuss at length to his buddy about micro chips and inclusive angles.

Scalpels have disposable blades so that really doesn't matter...

Sure there are plenty of people who use their knives everyday who have knives in better steels and use them, chefs, butchers etc.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

A scalpel is a really bad example in this case. Scalpels are typically SINGLE use items that often don't make more than one single cut before their useful life is over. Their sole purpose is to make one clean cut, of which steel type has almost no bearing. All that is needed is a clean apex which can be had on a number of materials.

I have to agree. I used to work in a food factory and disposable box cutters are not allowed in case a piece falls into the food. I would say out of 1000 employees or so, most carried a SAK. Many are razor sharpen, but also many are knock offs or misused and are very dull. Then there are bunch of folders, with BM grip and sog flash 1 are 2 that's in mind. It is always the 60 hours work week when you barely have time to take a shower is when you use your knife the hardest and when you have least time to sharpen. Thats when super steel offers no advantage.

When you are up in a cabin hunting or fishing for a week, I personally find super steel knifes much harder to sharpen. A little pocket stone will bring a keen edge, enough for regular chores like cutting up veg and bacon, cleaning a some large and small game, maybe some simple stuff like making a pot holder from a sapling. You need an arsenal to sharpen a super steel, with fine and medium, or maybe some diamond stone.

For all you guys that have honed your skills with super steel, go pick up a cheap carbon steel knife and be amazed at what you can do. I'm a firm believer that blade geometry and handle ergonomics are of equal importance in a knife. One "test" I always try is cutting up winter squash. I usually make curry with early season goose we shoot here with butternut and peppercorn squash. These are hard, binding material. I would say many of the best super steel knifes would have a hard time keeping up with a well sharpened kitchen knife. The problem is blade thickness, its like trying to cut sapling with a splitting maul.

I agree that blade material is very important, knife that don't take an edge is useless. But when you look at a surgeon's knife, they are not made from some exotic material yet they cut cleaning and precisely. I would venture to say that butchers around the world, from North and South America to Europe to Asia and Africa, no one has a super steel knife at work. These people make long body length cuts repetitively day after day. Probably one of the cut-e-est job in the world where your entire work day involve a knife in hand. If super thick, exotic materials on knifes are such an advantage that it is worth several times the cost of their current knifes, they would all have one. I just can't picture some Argentinian ranchero carrying a some fancy knife then discuss at length to his buddy about micro chips and inclusive angles.

I love the fact that knife industry is doing well in this economy, and so much time and effort is made to further our understanding of blade materials. Hopefully one day our dream (I know all of you have the same dream!) of having a knife that is super tough, can cutting through almost anything and never needs to be sharpened will be achieved. (And guns that don't need to buy ammo for while we're at it)

 

[sodak]

Late to the party, as usual...

I wasn't there but it would be interesting to know how well that worked. And my understanding is that back in the days of building the transcontinental railroad they were skinning a LOT of buffalo each day. I wonder how easily they skinned the buffalo with their knives and how often they had to sharpen them. Of course we also know that they rode horses to work, probably lived in tents, and the guy shooting the buffalo did it with a black powder single shot rifle. Are we better off now with automotive transportation, nice houses, and repeating cartridge firearms? We are probably better off with good steel in our knives too. I'm not a nostalgic person, I'm happy to have our modern technology whether I really need it or not.

Bingo. While they used "lesser" steels, would they have jumped at the chance to use "better" steels? We don't know, none of us were alive back then. I suspect they would have. I'm very thankful for modern technology, great steels, flushing toilets, anesthetic during surgery, etc. All good.

Also I've noticed sometimes that the guys "doing it for a living" don't always use very good tools. I've watch people painting in my house, doing carpentry work, and I've watched mechanics working in my father's garage. Most use pretty poor tools. I'm frugal with my spending but the few tools that I have are better than most of the tools I've seen professional workers using. (With the exception of paint brushes. Professional painters seem to like using expensive brushes and they know how to take care of them.) I once took a replaceable blade knife away from a countertop worker in my house, threw it away, and gave him the new one I had in my garage. His knife was almost nonfunctional and clearly dangerous to him.

A lot of guys doing things for a living simply use what their employer gives them. Very few are knuts like us.

Much like I won't buy a knife with the toughest lock ever if it has the edge geometry of a brick.

I agree. But I will buy a knife with a tough lock that has a great steel and superior edge geometry. They do exist, and are great to use.