Bladeforums and China: Broaden your perspectives, reconsider your prejudices.

[Comeuppance]

Please keep your comments civil. If you're just going to blast hate, keep it to yourself until you can use big-boy words and present an intellectually-sound argument that doesn't include broad sweeping generalizations or ad hominem.

I know this is a touchy subject for many people here, but there's no need to turn this into a pointless nationalist argument or start fights with people. We're a mature bunch. We carry sharp things and generally don't fantasize about stabbing people with them. Let's bask in our maturity and have a good, clean discussion.

- - -​

It's inevitable. Every time someone mentions a Chinese-manufactured brand, regardless of the context, people begin make negative statements whether or not they are relevant to the conversation at hand.

The most common stated reasons for disliking Chinese-manufactured goods seem to stem from concerns about (1) quality, (2) intellectual property, or (3) economic competition / autonomy.

First, before I address those individually, I'd like to state something that seems to be ignored when discussing China: (0) China isn't one singular company.

China is an incredibly large country undergoing an almost unprecedented economic boom, with new businesses and factories opening daily. Just because you have an issue with "X" knife that came from a Chinese manufacturer doesn't justify eschewing "Y" or "Z" knives from other manufacturers, as they are separate and unrelated entities, the only shared characteristic being the country of origin. It's incredibly silly to generalize all knives made in China as if they are made in just a few factories. It is plainly not the case, given the broad spectrum of quality and materials being sold to US wholesalers and/or consumers.

(1) - Quality

This is related to (0), in reference to the manner in which the concern is usually brought up. Someone will chime in with a statement along the lines of "Chinese knives are crap", which is an insane statement to make given that there are many prominent and known examples of Chinese knife manufacturers that produce quality products** - some simultaneously producing them for US companies. More on that later, though.

** Reate, Rike, SanRenMu, Kizer, and Enlan are fairly prominent on these boards, some with their very own Subforums.

(2) - Intellectual Property

It strikes me as a gross oversimplification that borders on xenophobia to swear off all Chinese-manufactured knives just because some manufacturers in the country produce products that violate intellectual property. It's a true double-standard that exposes one's unjustified prejudices. How so? Consider US knifemakers: Will you never buy a U.S.-made knife because Microtech copied the 0777 with their Matrix design? What about Cold Steel copying the GI Tanto? Those are just a couple examples, but the point is made.

(3) - Economic Competition / Autonomy

(Unavoidably, there is a lot of crossover with (2) here.)

The perception of all Chinese goods being low-quality is actually largely a fault of our own desire for low-cost goods. US companies cannot afford to get the materials and pay the workers a living wage and still produce some goods at a price that consumers find acceptable. It is the US wholesalers that decide to pass on the inferior product to the consumer.

A perspective to consider:
If someone told you that they would pay you $5 to make something out of $1 worth of materials, you would take that job if you owned a manufacturing plant. That's just good business. If the client you sell to accepts the quality of the product, you're successfully filling the contract and that is all that matters from a business perspective. Your name isn't even on the product - someone else is just buying it from you and putting it in their own name.

"I'll just buy from US manufacturers, then! Support our own economy!"
There are a few problems with that sentiment:
- The US manufacturers are using many machines, parts, and materials that are sourced from China.
- Trade between nations is a major benefit to our economy, undeniably. We do not have the natural resources to produce everything we want at a price we would find acceptable.
- US manufacturers can still make crap products.


I don't want to downplay the issues that counterfeits and clones present. I'm not saying that nothing crappy comes from China. What I am trying to get across is that you should reconsider making broad generalizations about China as if the entire country is culpable for the shoddy goods that US manufacturers commissioned in the first place.

The counterfeits, while not commissioned, need a market to sustain the production. People are buying them. It's not a good thing, but, from their a business perspective, it's just a material good that can be produced for cheap without repercussions. However strongly you feel about intellectual property, it is not fair to lump all Chinese manufacturers together as if they all were mutually guilty.

Thank you for reading this and keeping your responses civil.

 

[Shotgun]

People on the other side of the planet need to feed their families too. We're all people. The us vs them only benefits the powerful.

 

[dr_fosg8]

I agree for the most part. The economy today is too global to rule out purchasing from only products made by any country.

And as you said, you can get quality products and crap products from ANY country of manufacture. It is a business decision for the companies selling them. If it is good enough to sell it they will.

It is crazy in the automotive realm nowadays as well. I have a Chevrolet manufactured in Mexico and a Hyundai manufactured in the USA, makes no sense to me but I don't sell them.

 

[Sigsog226]

Dont have alot to say on the subject except my reasoning for not buying chinese. I think they produce alot of great blades now days and dont hold it against a company just because they are chinese. But my two cents has to be about their horrible labor laws and unfair treatment of their people. And i know thats not all chinese companies, but there is no way for me decipher which ones are good and which aren't. I do hate when people just spit a bunch of hate about the subject every chance they get. I also hate communist governments, who oppress their people.

 

[rob32]

I have several Chinese made knives, and for the money, they are some of the best knives I own. My Enlan EL 01 would be far more than the $17.00 I paid for it if it were made by an American company. I am fond of my Ganzo knives as well. It's also worth pointing out that the company the makes most of the higher quality clone knives in China is the same company that makes knives for Custom Knife Factory. My CKF Sukhoi 2.0 is a fantastic blade....China made. The CKF Daboia is even an original Chinese design by Kevin John.

People around here can continue to hate on Chinese knives for all I care. That probably just helps keep the prices low for people like me.

 

[Comeuppance]

Dont have alot to say on the subject except my reasoning for not buying chinese. I think they produce alot of great blades now days and dont hold it against a company just because they are chinese. But my two cents has to be about their horrible labor laws and unfair treatment of their people. And i know thats not all chinese companies, but there is no way for me decipher which ones are good and which aren't. I do hate when people just spit a bunch of hate about the subject every chance they get. I also hate communist governments, who oppress their people.

See, now THAT is a perfectly legitimate reason for not wanting to purchase Chinese goods - as a sort of protest against their insufficient / poorly enforced labor laws. The vacuum of routes for verification of proper work environments is very frustrating.

 

[Cipriano]

Two thoughts come to mind.

First, I don't agree with China's labor laws. As in - They have none!

Second, when I spend my money, I want to get a product that has, at least, a little cache and hand-it-down potential.

 

[Comeuppance]

I have several Chinese made knives, and for the money, they are some of the best knives I own. My Enlan EL 01 would be far more than the $17.00 I paid for it if it were made by an American company. I am fond of my Ganzo knives as well. It's also worth pointing out that the company the makes most of the higher quality clone knives in China is the same company that makes knives for Custom Knife Factory. My CKF Sukhoi 2.0 is a fantastic blade....China made. The CKF Daboia is even an original Chinese design by Kevin John.

Honestly, that's kind of a detracting factor for the reputation of that company - that they produce commissioned original designs and clones/counterfeits simultaneously is one of the arguments that people use for swearing off the knives in general.

People around here can continue to hate on Chinese knives for all I care. That probably just helps keep the prices low for people like me.

Actually, increased volume of sale would lead to a reduced need for high profit margins, thus lower prices.

 

[vanslem6]

People on the other side of the planet need to feed their families too. We're all people. The us vs them only benefits the powerful.

Wise.

I'm not really a xenophobe, but I don't own any Chinese made knives. My favorites are from Japan thus far, however.

 

[gonebad395]

Very well written post to tell you the honest truth I do steer away from Chinese made products as much as I can. But we all no well and good you can't 100% do that. I do it most because I'm tired of waking up everyday reading these people lost their job this plant closed and when you read why 80% of the time the company outsourcing to China where child and slave labor run rampent. Is it china's fault yes for along such work practice. But we also forget to blame the American company that sold it's workers down the river to save a dollar instead of standing behind the American people and work force. Am I hard headed yes am I ready to give in to the sellout companies are doing to America NO.

 

[Comeuppance]

Two thoughts come to mind.

First, I don't agree with China's labor laws. As in - They have none!

Second, when I spend my money, I want to get a product that has, at least, a little cache and hand-it-down potential.

There is something odd about a "heritage" import item, but I would say that mostly stems from perception rather than inherent quality - I think it's the knowledge that the item was produced in bulk in a factory. A nice Handmade Italian stilletto might seem like a good potential heirloom, but a Lionsteel SR1... Not so much, even if they were the same price.

 

[22-rimfire]

I picked up a AG Russell two blade Sowbelly Trapper (traditional) this week. It is a a pretty beastly folder. Have no complaints other than it is DEFINITELY not a knife you would want to stab something and expect the blade not to fold back on you. But for cutting, it appears to be well made. Has pretty weak snap too. It feels good in the hand and I like the large clip and wharncliffe blade choices in one knife.

My other chinese made knives are CRKT Razels (three of them-different models), and a Kershaw boot knife. Not fond of the Kershaw. I like the Razels for work applications. And of course one needs to own a few Rough Riders and perhaps a Frost that are chinese made. I do the Frost Cutlery thing occasionally hoping that something has changed.... it hasn't. At least they're cheap.

 

[fp627]

My own views:

TLDR version: China is paid to make cheap junk right now so they will make cheap junk. If they only get paid enough when they can keep costs down by doing all of the bad things they have done to earn a bad name from labor abuses to questionable materials to IP theft, they will do all of the above to get paid - to be 100% clear that doesn't make any of these bad things right.

Full version:
Quality:
If companies in China or ANYONE ANYWHERE are being paid/expected to and make money from making cheap, semi to fully disposable items, guess what they are going to make? Compound that with the fact that the same serious users probably won't buy from you anyways if you try to make a genuinely nice product and guess what you will really want to do now?

- With that being said, I also have no doubt that as of right now, generally speaking, the average US knife maker has much better production capabilities than the average Chinese knife maker. This is several things:
1. Training, education, and skill level of the workers at all levels in the org. Many workers in China are relatively uneducated as of right now, especially people from the countryside who go to cities to work in factories. They often go between factories every year as well or work where ever they can find work for a set period of time.
2. Production capability - while China as a nation has the ability to make things in large amounts, they do not always have the most advanced or best tooling needed to make things.
3. Mentality - the mentality of the average worker in China is SO VASTLY DIFFERENT than the mentality of the average worker here. It is also different in a way that in my own opinion is bad for making high quality products. Not that things can't be taught or things can't change...

I say all of the above from personal experience working with Chinese companies as well as friends and co-workers who have worked with Chinese companies and/or IN many parts of China. Some as Chinese people familiar (or Taiwanese people mostly familiar) with the language, culture, etc there for business. Some as "outsiders" there for business.

- Advantages China may have over us:
1. More people available to make more stuff. Pure numbers, plain and simple.
2. More dexterity in hands. Some may not believe in this. Some may say this is not PC, or even outright racist. But in my own experience and observation, while I have NO firm proof or evidence, I would not be surprised if genetically the Chinese people on average simply have more potential for more dexterity in their hands (not necessarily actual training or current capability) vs most other people in the world. Good dexterity in the hands is an obvious plus for a knife maker.

Int Property:
A knife is not complex enough to where only a few nations have the know how to produce them or a few people can think up ideas. As a matter of fact, if anything, in history China was probably one of the first nations to use forged steel on a wide scale for anything, and definitely one of if not the first for their soldiers/warriors/fighters. They have also had many designs throughout the ages that were made to meet certain needs. So in that sense I have no doubts about China's ability to conceptualize and produce a good blade/knife.

The rest ties into point 1 above - if few people buy your genuine designs but many people buy your counterfeits, what would be the most logical item for you to sell?

Economy:
I personally believe that neither nation has each other's best economic interest at heart. China is probably more bold and blatant in trying to undermine us than we are in trying to do the same to them. Difference is there the mentality seems to be "in it for the long haul" vs the mentality in the US seems to be "how do I get money into my pockets today?" However, we are also tied together on a sinking ship as of right now and for the foreseeable future. As much we the countries or people may or may not like each other (or somewhere inbetween), it isn't in anyone's interest to rock the boat so hard that we all drown together.

 

[Comeuppance]

Very well written post to tell you the honest truth I do steer away from Chinese made products as much as I can. But we all no well and good you can't 100% do that. I do it most because I'm tired of waking up everyday reading these people lost their job this plant closed and when you read why 80% of the time the company outsourcing to China where child and slave labor run rampent. Is it china's fault yes for along such work practice. But we also forget to blame the American company that sold it's workers down the river to save a dollar instead of standing behind the American people and work force. Am I hard headed yes am I ready to give in to the sellout companies are doing to America NO.

It's an interesting position to be in - China really isn't to blame, as it's just a company accepting a contract, but you don't want to buy the products because it supports the practice. The US company is just doing what is best for the business (but not necessarily the wokers), so they are the ones who should be scrutinized. Ultimately, though, the companies commissioning the cheap labor are enabling the practice, which puts them arguably at a lower moral standing than those producing the goods.

 

[22-rimfire]

Ten years from now when all the inexpensive knives are made in Vietnam or where ever there is cheap labor, people will talk about Chinese quality just like they do today with Japanese products. Japan turned the tide with their cars actually being "better" than the US counterpart. The same will happen in China eventually. Things have a way of evening out.

However, I try to support US manufacturing or at least manufactured widgits made in the US versus oversees. It is hard to tell sometimes where things are made.

 

[Firestrike]

You have accomplished nothing but reaffirm my desire to spend my money in America and to continue keeping our U.S. labor force working and earning paychecks. I strongly disagree with your essay, as you forgot to mention that keeping koney in the U.S. keeps the unemployment lines smaller.

This in turn should keep more people off of welfare, provide more American jobs, and possibly result in better spent tax dollars. Not to mention we would not be strengthening the economy of a probably future enemy.

In conclusionYOU spend YOUR money where and how you want, and I will do the same.

 

[gonebad395]

It's an interesting position to be in - China really isn't to blame, as it's just a company accepting a contract, but you don't want to buy the products because it supports the practice. The US company is just doing what is best for the business (but not necessarily the wokers), so they are the ones who should be scrutinized. Ultimately, though, the companies commissioning the cheap labor are enabling the practice, which puts them arguably at a lower moral standing than those producing the goods.

Yes don't get me wrong I don't hold the Chinese working man at fault by any means. When I say China I mean their government and the practices they alow to manufacture these products at such a low cost. When a person with no food has a offer to work for 55 cents a day to provided food for their family but said food to feed the family is 1.25 a day so said families kids have to also work even though they are only 6 and 9 years old so said family can eat yes I have a problem. supporting that. That's what I was loosely trying to say.

 

[rob32]

Honestly, that's kind of a detracting factor for the reputation of that company - that they produce commissioned original designs and clones/counterfeits simultaneously is one of the arguments that people use for swearing off the knives in general.

None of that changes the fact that they make fantastic knives at a very low price. I have owned and handled two knives made by Triumph Precision (Kevin John) one a Strider clone which, IMO is better made than the genuine Strider I have handled, and also my CKF Sukhoi. Both have been perfect. That Sukhoi is the absolute smoothest opening knife I have ever seen. I took it with me to a local knife shop recently and the owner wanted to show it to everyone because of how great it was.

Actually, increased volume of sale would lead to a reduced need for high profit margins, thus lower prices.

That is one possibility, however unlikely. Increased demand tends to raise prices, not lower them. I run a business and we dictate prices almost exclusively on demand. If the Chinese companies making knives suddenly find their products in even higher demand, I can assure you that the prices will most likely increase, not decrease.

 

[fp627]

As for pollution, human rights, labor laws, and the "other" factors not related to the knives themselves but that people still consider, all of the above definitely contribute to my avoiding stuff from China or any other country rife with the above when I can. However, we in the US are not without our own problems in these departments. Ex how many people in the US do you know who complain about their boss, the way corporate America is structured, have been "abused by the system", etc? And my same friends who have worked in China said things are not always (although they frequently are) as bad as people make them out to be here (although they all definitely agree that things are better in these sense here). Hence, just another aspect of why I will not totally boycott avoid from China nor will I always buy US made.

As for supporting local jobs, I personally try to buy US when I can IF the product is both a good product and offers good value (notice I don't say inexpensive or expensive). If all else is equal and value is very close, then I will try to buy US made simply b/c American.

With that being said, the way I see it, if China (or anyone anywhere) can make the same or better knife for half the cost WITHOUT abusing the above (not that we aren't guilty either), then why would I continue to reward failure, laziness, bloated salaries/overpaying, lack of innovation, etc. locally by buying local products?

Also in regards for local jobs - if a Chinese company were to do well and wanted to expand to the US and employ US citizens (or other peoples here legally), would you say this is ultimately good for the economy (Americans have jobs + owners invest some of the money on the company domestically + America's economic capability) or bad (owner/s take some of the profits elsewhere)? Likewise, if a US company were to lay off it's people and outsource labor, is this ultimately good or bad for the economy?

I saw an interesting video stating that many "Americans" (defined in the video as 2nd generator or longer) simply weren't doing things like getting advanced degrees in engineering (and starting tech or manufacturing companies afterwards) or going into trades/skilled labor (semi to skilled manufacturing, mechanic, doctor, nurse, electrician, farming, mining, etc.) but many immigrants (defined in the video as 1st generation that moved here) and other countries are. These were the same things that the video felt powered the US economy from the 50's to the 90's when the US was very strong as an economy. I'd argue that knife making would be one of the things that could fall into this category (as a mix of design, trades/skilled labor and production, and engineering).

 

[Comeuppance]

- With that being said, I also have no doubt that as of right now, generally speaking, the average US knife maker has much better production capabilities than the average Chinese knife maker. This is several things:
1. Training, education, and skill level of the workers at all levels in the org. Many workers in China are relatively uneducated as of right now, especially people from the countryside who go to cities to work in factories. They often go between factories every year as well or work where ever they can find work for a set period of time.

The average factory worker in China does not have a particularly good education, it's true. They are generally shown a procedure and then follow it. However, that doesn't necessarily reflect a poor-quality knife. You can take an artisan's skill and break it up into dozens of small simple actions that can be repeated endlessly.

2. Production capability - while China as a nation has the ability to make things in large amounts, they do not always have the most advanced or best tooling needed to make things.

I would argue that it's not so much a lack of capability, tools, or materials, but a lack of a need for such things to make a product that companies overseas will purchase and re-brand under their own name. Low-quality imports exist because local companies look for the lowest bidder.

The rest ties into point 1 above - if few people buy your genuine designs but many people buy your counterfeits, what would be the most logical item for you to sell?

There's an interesting point as well - we should actually be actively supporting the Chinese manufacturers that produce solely original designs, as that makes it a more viable option to produce them. The market is known for counterfeits, but that's because China has the labor laws / intellectual property laws (or lack thereof) and materials to make starting up a counterfeiting business profitable and safe.

On top of that, the established framework is already there and there are dozens of examples for startups to emulate. Heck, a vast majority of our CNC machinery is manufactured in China already, which makes it that much more affordable to set up a high-precision operation.