Bladeforums and China: Broaden your perspectives, reconsider your prejudices.

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I'm not actually certain what it is that we're supposed to discuss in this thread.

"Bladeforums and China: Broaden your perspectives, reconsider your prejudices"

You say you want "intellectually-sound argument that doesn't include broad sweeping generalizations or ad hominem."

Do you see the irony of your statements are an obstacle in themselves in fostering intellectually sound arguments in that your title makes sweeping generalizations that are ad hominem attacks? 1) That the people who would be against buying knives from China are narrow-minded and 2) that they are prejudiced. Do you not realize that you started this thread with sweeping ad hominem generalizations - something that you ask others to refrain from?

Before I address what I think is the point of contention, I would like to discuss your first presupposition -- "First, before I address those individually, I'd like to state something that seems to be ignored when discussing China: (0) China isn't one singular company." What makes you think that China can't effectively be considered as a singular company? Do you not understand that China is a communist society that is still ruled by the Communist Party? Do you not know that a tenet of communism is centralized control of production? If you look at the current "owners" of companies, you will find that they come from history of deeply entrenched connections in the Communist Party or the military. While it may appear to you as separate companies, it's silly to not consider that those companies may be related to some degree. Even in Japan which isn't communistic, the concept of keiretsu has a strong dominant influence on the economy even though the relationships have been "informal" - how much more would the formal relationships between Chinese companies have carried over during the transformation into a more palatable facade for western tastes?

To the point of contention, I have no prejudice against buying Chinese products. But neither do I have a bias towards buying them. It is what it is. In any market, there are order qualifiers and order winners for each consumer segment. Order qualifiers are attributes necessary for the consumer to even consider buying a product -- is it fixed or folding, US or China made, etc. Order winners are attributes that sway a consumer to buy one product offering over another after both products have been qualified for consideration. What may be an order winner today may become an order qualifier tomorrow. Not all consumers are the same, each subset would have their own sets of order qualifiers and winners.

All this to say, I suggest you take your own advice and broaden your perspectives -- there's going to be a segment of knife consumers that consider "made in China" as an order disqualifier. You should accept that and reconsider your prejudices. To rephrase a meme I see here often -- stop trying to make people not hate what you like.
 
I'll explain it to you. A blade that is HAND ground, by a HUMAN, who has the care and discernment to craft it to a high standard, is more valuable to me than a production-ground blade.

This is not a wild notion. I have received many messed up production-ground blades (my Paramilitary 2s, for example), but have never had that problem with a custom/mid-tech.
 
Why? Looks like a lot of good discussion to me. I have never understood why BF seems so wary of discussion of knife economics.
 
AlvaroDPD said:
i wonder when this obsession with wondering/ stamping everything with "made in X" became popular? Is it a relatively new concept? anyone know anything about this?
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It's actually regulations that require it in most countries -- for the purposes of tariffs, protectionism, taking advantage of favored nation status, etc.

Here's something China related although I don't know if it applies to all products -- I know one product made in China that is not allowed to be sold in China with the "made in China" stamp. I don't know why this is.
 
btinder said:
Why? Looks like a lot of good discussion to me. I have never understood why BF seems so wary of discussion of knife economics.
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The site owner as well as an overwhelming majority of the members feel that knock offs, clones, and counterfeit knives hurt the hobby instead of helping it. It's hard to explain to some people that are new to the hobby and have not met the major players over the last 20-30 years, seen the impact of counterfeit items in other industries. Unfortunately some people just don't get it, and other don't care. If people like knock offs and whatever, that is great. There are groups elsewhere that would be a perfect fit, because this place is not going to turn into a haven for that sort of thing.
 
btinder said:
I'll explain it to you. A blade that is HAND ground, by a HUMAN, who has the care and discernment to craft it to a high standard, is more valuable to me than a production-ground blade.

This is not a wild notion. I have received many messed up production-ground blades (my Paramilitary 2s, for example), but have never had that problem with a custom/mid-tech.
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Funny you should say that, but when I spoke with Medford about the blade centering being off on my $600.00 Praetorian, I was told it is probably off because the blades are hand ground (and thus less precise). Nor was he surprised that I had a knife with poor centering. He even went so far as to say he doesn't like selling to collectors because they are "too picky." This was after I said I was a knife collector. If you want to pay extra for that sort of thing, feel free.
 
rob32 said:
Quite sure. I have personally seen enough quality issues from high end knife companies in the USA without even taking into account all of the issues one can easily find online. My $10.00 SanRenMu has perfect blade centering and lock up, zero play in the blade, and it opens well enough. When I ot my hands on a $600.00 USA made knife for the first time, the lock stick was so bad I couldn't use it and the centering was off to the point where it rubbed. When you have big name companies in the USA who are known to produce knives with lock-rock, bad detents, and warranties that may or may not be honored, it is really hard to point the finger at Chinese knife makers as a whole to be avoided.

Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of USA made knives, as well as others around the world. The blind hate for Chinese knives on here is just silly at this point. Sure, there are some crappy knives coming out of China, but there are some crappy knives coming out of the USA too. Difference is, if I happen to get a bad Enlan knife for $16 bucks, (which I have yet to find) it's no big deal. Spending hundreds on a knife just for that made in the USA stamp just to get a crappy product? Kinda disappointing.
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First off- I don't have an issue with Chinese makers. Many are quite talented.. I would certainly buy original knives or anything for that matter from China..Just haven't found one that speaks to me.

What you didn't address was the counterfeits being better than the original. Your SanRenMu isn't supposed to be counterfeit anything..although,..one model resembles a Sebenza. Is that your example?
When you found issues with your higher end knives,..did you contact the manufacturer about it for warranty support? Trust me..Nobody is infallible when it comes to making parts and nobody does 100% inspections on individual parts unless it's NASA or similar. If not..Why not?

So far,..I am not hating Chinese knives- I don't own any to hate. The ones I do not support have already been discussed many times. Countfeits, copies and homages..

It's not a surprise that people want to defend their choices. We are in a knife forum..Everybody wants to discuss the things we are fanatical about. For various reasons, the choices we made are highly polarizing to each one of us..For financial reasons for some...pride for others..Could even be frugality...It doesn't really matter too much. The common denominator is that we are all freakish about knives..

That's not a bad thing :)
 
I like Turtles. I don't even care where they are made. ;)

But to keep on subject, this is seriously a pointless thread IMHO...I feel my way you all feel yours..Some of us agree and some do not, I for one can tell you what I will take from this...And that is that some of you have the same tastes and preferences as me and those are the people likely to help me make better informed decisions on future knife purchases.
 
bhyde said:
What you didn't address was the counterfeits being better than the original. Your SanRenMu isn't supposed to be counterfeit anything..although,..one model resembles a Sebenza. Is that your example?
When you found issues with your higher end knives,..did you contact the manufacturer about it for warranty support? Trust me..Nobody is infallible when it comes to making parts and nobody does 100% inspections on individual parts unless it's NASA or similar. If not..Why not?
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The counterfeit I am referring to was a Strider SNG. I have one made by Kevin John from China, and it is better than the one Strider I have held, and better than most I have seen online. It has none of the problems that has been associated with Strider, lock rock, ect. It also came with a nice box, and a cloth similar to the CRK cloth that came with my Sebenza. After seeing this, I just cannot bring myself to purchase a real Strider for the prices he asks when they are known for having issues, but a China made copy has a good reputation.

I have had mixed results with customer service buying knives. I did recently return a ZT knife and they were great. I have had issues with both custom knives I have ordered, one a quality issue that is going to cost me time and money, and the other was just bad business practice by the new defunct Uberknives, who was at the time a forum supporter.

It's not a surprise that people want to defend their choices. We are in a knife forum..Everybody wants to discuss the things we are fanatical about. For various reasons, the choices we made are highly polarizing to each one of us..For financial reasons for some...pride for others..Could even be frugality...It doesn't really matter too much. The common denominator is that we are all freakish about knives..

That's not a bad thing :)
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Heh, true. People are rabid about their hobbies, myself included. I admit, frugality has much to do with my choices in knives. Not that I won't spend the money on a higher end item, because I have and I will, but because I want to know that my money is well spent. Many of the Chinese knives offer that. When I can get a knife like my CKF Sukhoi, which is made in China, but assembled in Russia, and I am seriously shocked that the knife costs as little as it does...that's awesome. However, when I get a $600.00+ knife made elsewhere that has quality issues, I am bound to be underwhelmed.
 
My view is that of a non-US amateur knife person.

I don't care much where a knife is made, just if it is value for money.
Here in New Zealand there is a limited range of folders available and they are expensive compared to buying them online from overseas.
I have a modest collection of Spyderco, Benchmade and ZT folders, most of which I acquired when NZ$1 was up around 84 to 88c US. Even including freight cost I got what I consider to be some good deals.
Now the NZ$ has dived to about 62 - 63c US and that has curtailed my buying nice folders. I'm a blue collar worker and not exactly well off.

I have also purchased quite a number of Chinese made folders from the Ali site and a couple of similar sites, these also purchased in US$. These I get freight free which is a saving, and I get them not for myself but to on-sell to other people here that see the price of a nice Spyderco et al as just too much to pay for a pocket knife.
I can sell an Enlan or Inron for ~NZ$40 and that's a great deal compared to what is for sale at retailers here. For example a local sports shop sells Gerber Paraframes for NZ$100.
I do this to introduce people to the hobby I enjoy, or just as a useful EDC tool for them. I make very little in doing so.
Thus, I see cheaper Chinese made folders as having a place in the scheme of things.

I have never bought anything that is a blatant rip off of a CRK or Strider or Spyderco or whatever, and I don't need to as there are some pretty good for the price options to be had without supporting the really blatant theft of others work.
I've bought some that were real junk too, just part of the learning curve.

Unfortunately it wont be long before the NZ govt caves to retailers here and adds the 15% Good and Services Tax to all things bought online from overseas, to try and make everyone go back to being way overcharged for goods in this country.
 
Rob 32 stated:

"Vietnam and Korean wars ring a bell".
Please tell me what Vietnam and Korea have to do with Chinese knives. Looking forward to your answer.
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He was answering the question "where/when had Chinese soldiers killed American soldiers." Vietnam had volunteers.Combat forces up to divisional equivalent strength by some estimates. Find some old 7th ID troops that served down in the delta if they ran across any. In North Korea after the push back from the Pusan perimeter and all the way up to the PRC border the NORKs were effectively out of the game and Kim Sung was sheltering in Russia the PRC government sent in hundreds of thousands of PRC soldiers to attack right after Thanksgiving. The Marines being surrounded at the Chosin Resevoir strike any memories? They had to fight their way out being surrounded the whole way. There are some nice quotes from various people that were printed in the papers around then.You would likely recognize some of them like the "surrounded, we have them right where we want them" type stuff.

There would be no more North Korea/South Korea if the PRC hadn't intervened and what is now probably the most repressive, brutal country in the world wouldn't be there. It would be a free and democratic and nuclear free unified Korea. The PRC troops were known for not treating American prisoners very nicely as well.

You never learned this stuff? Next time when someone asks when PRC Chinese soldiers killed Americans you can answer it.
 
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The Mastiff said:
Rob 32 stated:



He was answering the question "where/when had Chinese soldiers killed American soldiers." Vietnam had volunteers.Combat forces up to divisional equivalent strength by some estimates. Find some old 7th ID troops that served down in the delta if they ran across any. In North Korea after the push back from the Pusan perimeter and all the way up to the PRC border the NORKs were effectively out of the game and Kim Sung was sheltering in Russia the PRC government sent in hundreds of thousands of PRC soldiers to attack right after Thanksgiving. The Marines being surrounded at the Chosin Resevoir strike any memories? They had to fight their way out being surrounded the whole way. There are some nice quotes from various people that were printed in the papers around then.You would likely recognize some of them like the "surrounded, we have them right where we want them" type stuff.

There would be no more North Korea/South Korea if the PRC hadn't intervened and what is now probably the most repressive, brutal country in the world wouldn't be there. It would be a free and democratic and nuclear free unified Korea. The PRC troops were known for not treating American prisoners very nicely as well.

You never learned this stuff? Next time when someone asks when PRC Chinese soldiers killed Americans you can answer it.
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I stand corrected. If I did learn any of that, it was ages ago and I no longer remember it, obviously. I was never a history major. Even so, it's pretty irrelevant to this discussion. If we never traded with countries that we have fought against, we would never trade at all. One does not need to be a history major to know that, if you go back far enough, we've engaged with pretty much everyone at some point.
 
We've strayed too far away from actual knife discussion. Closed.
 
rob32 said:
I stand corrected. If I did learn any of that, it was ages ago and I no longer remember it, obviously. I was never a history major. Even so, it's pretty irrelevant to this discussion. If we never traded with countries that we have fought against, we would never trade at all. One does not need to be a history major to know that, if you go back far enough, we've engaged with pretty much everyone at some point.
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Sorry to inject but it is quite relevant to many people. A lot of folks don't think twice about buying knives made in Germany, Japan and Italy. Over 70 years ago the U.S. defeated those nations in WWII and destroyed their fascist regimes. They have been democracies and U.S. allies since then. The difference with China is that the "China" that was a US ally in WWII was defeated by the communists and chased off the mainland to Taiwan. The "China" today is the same one-party dictatorship that fought the US (and UN) in the Korean war and supported N.Vietnam against the US (and UN) in the late 60s/early 70s. Although they changed the label on the bottle, "China" is the same Red China, Communist China, Peoples Republic of China that has historically, as well as presently played a role of adversary to the United States. Today the Chinese military train with the U.S. as the "designatd enemy". Since v2002 China has declared their intent to out the US out of the western Pacific and replace it as the dominant strategic power in the region - an agenda that has all of our Asian allies worried. Please use google to look up "Pivot to Asia" and find out what that is all about. While supporting the economy of a country that is adversarial may be "irrelevant" to you, it is understandable that it may be "relevant" to many others.
http://www.businessinsider.com/china-developed-multiple-warhead-missiles-2015-5
 
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