Bladeforums and China: Broaden your perspectives, reconsider your prejudices.

[G. Scott H.]

Comeuppance, some of the points you made in your original post reminded me very much of a very thought provoking article I read years ago. That article is available here (among other places): http://capitalismmagazine.com/2003/09/buy-american-is-un-american/. I hope the mods are okay with this, as my intent is to share a particular philosphical position that I feel is apropos to this discussion, rather than a political one. I have to say your post was well thought out, and that I agree with your statements. :thumbup:

 

[Angus McGunnigle]

People on the other side of the planet need to feed their families too. We're all people. The us vs them only benefits the powerful.

Well said.

 

[gonebad395]

Of course the people over there need to eat too but right now your tax dollars are paying for the one here that can't eat due to losing their jobs to over there.

 

[Comeuppance]

You have accomplished nothing but reaffirm my desire to spend my money in America and to continue keeping our U.S. labor force working and earning paychecks. I strongly disagree with your essay, as you forgot to mention that keeping koney in the U.S. keeps the unemployment lines smaller.

This in turn should keep more people off of welfare, provide more American jobs, and possibly result in better spent tax dollars. Not to mention we would not be strengthening the economy of a probably future enemy.

In conclusionYOU spend YOUR money where and how you want, and I will do the same.

My intent is not to convince people to start buying more Chinese-made knives, nor am I an economic expert. My main goal is to present a perspective that will make those with unjustifiable positions question their assumptions, prejudices, and perspectives.

Keeping money in the US is impossible, however, as we lack the workforce and materials to produce goods at the price level that has been established. It seems likely that our quality of life would drop dramatically were we to attempt to be entirely self-sustaining.

Strengthening the economy of a probably future enemy? China depends on us as much as we depend on them. Their economy is almost entirely based on exported goods. They're not likely to pick a fight with us, or us with them. Really, our continued trade combined with the ever-increasing transparency nature of their communist-come-capitalist nation is more likely to increase the standard of quality of life there, which means that we're likely to help them out so much that they stop being particularly cheap to buy from.

 

[gonebad395]

My intent is not to convince people to start buying more Chinese-made knives, nor am I an economic expert. My main goal is to present a perspective that will make those with unjustifiable positions question their assumptions, prejudices, and perspectives.

Keeping money in the US is impossible, however, as we lack the workforce and materials to produce goods at the price level that has been established. It seems likely that our quality of life would drop dramatically were we to attempt to be entirely self-sustaining.

Strengthening the economy of a probably future enemy? China depends on us as much as we depend on them. Their economy is almost entirely based on exported goods. They're not likely to pick a fight with us, or us with them. Really, our continued trade combined with the ever-increasing transparency nature of their communist-come-capitalist nation is more likely to increase the standard of quality of life there, which means that we're likely to help them out so much that they stop being particularly cheap to buy from.

Is it our quality of life that would drop or the quality? or the ceos of the companies selling us out that would fall if the pay gap from worker to ceo wasn't so big?

 

[JR88FAN]

This thread really misses the point on so many levels.

I have been involved in my share of these "debates" and the only thing that I have learned is that nobody learns anything from them.

What so many people fail to realize is that this has nothing to do with China.
Most of us who take issue with the topic of "Chinese Knives" do so from a political standpoint.
That all starts and ends in America.

 

[fp627]

This thread really misses the point on so many levels.

I have been involved in my share of these "debates" and the only thing that I have learned is that nobody learns anything from them.

What so many people fail to realize is that this has nothing to do with China.
Most of us who take issue with the topic of "Chinese Knives" do so from a political standpoint.
That all starts and ends in America.

What do you think the point is? I've made mine above, I don't think anyone is wrong or right, and my ultimate idea was that things have ultimately sorted themselves out in a way that makes sense for the current market conditions (which includes that the US does generally speaking currently have better knife production capability). My other points/ideas were rhetorical questions meant to examine the above further.

 

[ichor]

I have several Chinese made knives, and for the money, they are some of the best knives I own. My Enlan EL 01 would be far more than the $17.00 I paid for it if it were made by an American company. I am fond of my Ganzo knives as well. It's also worth pointing out that the company the makes most of the higher quality clone knives in China is the same company that makes knives for Custom Knife Factory. My CKF Sukhoi 2.0 is a fantastic blade....China made. The CKF Daboia is even an original Chinese design by Kevin John.

People around here can continue to hate on Chinese knives for all I care. That probably just helps keep the prices low for people like me.

I recently bought a Ganzo, Enlan, and Sanrenmu, just to see what all the hubbub was about. Short shipping time ( from 3 different ebay sellers.) Great fit & finish, take great edges. I couldn't be more pleased, and for well under 50 bucks for the trio. I'm with rob32. If people want to hate'em and depress the prices...I'm all for it. LOL

 

[AlvaroDPD]

Comeuppance, some of the points you made in your original post reminded me very much of a very thought provoking article I read years ago. That article is available here (among other places): http://capitalismmagazine.com/2003/09/buy-american-is-un-american/. I hope the mods are okay with this, as my intent is to share a particular philosphical position that I feel is apropos to this discussion, rather than a political one. I have to say your post was well thought out, and that I agree with your statements. :thumbup:

Very interesting article! thank you for posting it! I must read it a few more times before i can decide to comment on it or decided to comment on this thread, however it creates some very interesting points! Again, thank you!

 

[powernoodle]

This in turn should keep more people off of welfare

[scratching head]

If your purpose in buying a knife is altruism, then we should acknowledge that a Chinese worker is probably much more desperate to keep his job than is his American counterpart. The latter lives in the land of opportunity and, if he loses his knife job, can become a truck driver or a school teacher or a million other things. And if not those, then bountiful welfare is encouragingly laid at his feet, which provides him with free rent, free food, free medical care, a free cell phone, free education, free meals for his kids at school, and on and on. The Chinese worker who loses his job may very well be destitute. So if human decency is at issue, we should all buy Chinese knives.

I contend that instead, we should buy the best knife at the best price, or the knife that makes us happiest, irrespective of politics or social engineering or any other misplaced feel good-ism. If serving the public good is part of our calculus when buying knives or any other products, however, then we do the most good by not artificially inflating the value of poor or overpriced products, and allowing them to die a natural death in the marketplace. This does the most good for the most people, including both workers and consumers.

But I don't buy knives to do good. I buy them to cut stuff.

 

[Firestrike]

My money is spent on support U.S. families unless I cannot find a reasonable U.S. equivalent.

As in I will buy an American made Spyderco over any other Spyderco, and be happy doing it even if it costs more.

If more people did this more U.S. jobs would exist, as demand rose jobs would start appearing to keep up with demand.

In the economical root form we can get base supplies from other countries when needed (at a cheaper cost) to use for manufacturing here and we are still strengthening our economy and providing jobs, when its the importing of manufactured goods we are xestroying american jobs and strengthening other economies..I am 100% against starving our own to feed someone else's.

 

[JR88FAN]

People on the other side of the planet need to feed their families too. We're all people. The us vs them only benefits the powerful.

This is the most ignorant thing I have read in a long time.

If you think that this is what "Globalization" is about, and, if you really believe this point of yours is actually accurate, then you have done zero homework.

Nobody is getting saved here.
It's just a shift in the way things are done in the name of growing profit margins.
That profit goes to less and less people everyday.

If you think this is a movement to help the "working man" in China, then you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[Comeuppance]

My money is spent on support U.S. families unless I cannot find a reasonable U.S. equivalent.

As in I will buy an American made Spyderco over any other Spyderco, and be happy doing it even if it costs more.

If more people did this more U.S. jobs would exist, as demand rose jobs would start appearing to keep up with demand.

In the economical root form we can get base supplies from other countries when needed (at a cheaper cost) to use for manufacturing here and we are still strengthening our economy and providing jobs, when its the importing of manufactured goods we are xestroying american jobs and strengthening other economies..I am 100% against starving our own to feed someone else's.

US job loss to outsourcing is usually unskilled labor or menial tasks. That means our education system needs work, and that we need to refocus on establishing an economy based on things that the US does better than others. The outsourcing you're seeing won't stop until all profitably-outsourceable jobs are outsourced, with or without your money - so you're protesting in vain in that regard.

If we're losing jobs to overseas competition, then the solution isn't an embargo or a protest, but rather finding a product that the US can manufacture cheaper than other countries. Fighting outsourcing by not buying the products is like throwing peas at a tank. The solution is to make a bigger, better tank that they can't produce as well or as cheaply.

I am 100% against starving our own to feed someone else's.

Your nationalism is showing, by the way.

 

[JR88FAN]

What do you think the point is? I've made mine above, I don't think anyone is wrong or right, and my ultimate idea was that things have ultimately sorted themselves out in a way that makes sense for the current market conditions (which includes that the US does generally speaking currently have better knife production capability). My other points/ideas were rhetorical questions meant to examine the above further.

I have no doubts that this thread is on a very short leash....I try very hard not to speed up that process.

BF rules dictate zero political discussion in this area of the forum, so I will respect that.

Like I said, this is a political issue.

It's not about quality, racism or chest pounding pride.
What has happened in China over the past 30 years has nothing to do with China....

It's been driven by American Corporations, and it has nothing to do with making a "better world" for the Chinese or for Americans.

 

[22-rimfire]

[scratching head]

If your purpose in buying a knife is altruism, then we should acknowledge that a Chinese worker is probably much more desperate to keep his job than is his American counterpart. The latter lives in the land of opportunity and, if he loses his knife job, can become a truck driver or a school teacher or a million other things. And if not those, then bountiful welfare is encouragingly laid at his feet, which provides him with free rent, free food, free medical care, a free cell phone, free education, free meals for his kids at school, and on and on. The Chinese worker who loses his job may very well be destitute. So if human decency is at issue, we should all buy Chinese knives.

I contend that instead, we should buy the best knife at the best price, or the knife that makes us happiest, irrespective of politics or social engineering or any other misplaced feel good-ism. If serving the public good is part of our calculus when buying knives or any other products, however, then we do the most good by not artificially inflating the value of poor or overpriced products, and allowing them to die a natural death in the marketplace. This does the most good for the most people, including both workers and consumers.

But I don't buy knives to do good. I buy them to cut stuff.

You should think of China like the US was in the late 1800's and early 1900's. The good stuff at that time came from England and Germany by the way. But the US became an industrial power house centered around a few key industries; steel, oil, and transportation. You add in all the industries that supported those industries and you had "America". Few worker rights. Workers lived in camps. Workers were totally dependent on their jobs as there was no safety net. The first safety net was Social Security and FDR.

These things do not exist in China regardless of how much pressuring the US does for them to improve worker safety, reduce environmental discharges, wages, and so forth. If the country collapses as it is likely to do in the next 10 years, unions will become common place as they were in the 20th Century US. Only after Federal and State laws providing protections for workers have unions seen a decline.

I buy knives to cut stuff. Sometimes they are made in China. Most aren't. But the proportion of chinese products in my accumulation is increasing as their quality increases.

 

[gonebad395]

US job loss to outsourcing is usually unskilled labor or menial tasks. That means our education system needs work, and that we need to refocus on establishing an economy based on things that the US does better than others. The outsourcing you're seeing won't stop until all profitably-outsourceable jobs are outsourced, with or without your money - so you're protesting in vain in that regard.

If we're losing jobs to overseas competition, then the solution isn't an embargo or a protest, but rather finding a product that the US can manufacture cheaper than other countries. Fighting outsourcing by not buying the products is like throwing peas at a tank. The solution is to make a bigger, better tank that they can't produce as well or as cheaply.



Your nationalism is showing, by the way.

We cant produce a cheaper product without taking a pay drop to lets just say 55 cents a day for example. why because the 1 perecnt isnt giving anything up not a dime. so tell me how do we live here working for less then that to make a better tank for cheaper?
answer is we cant we would have to work for 35 cents a day to entice a company to come back here move factories back to show a profit not to mention we have coppy write laws the companies would have to skate so now we are down to 15 cents a day because lawyers dont work for free. then insurance omg now we are at 5 cents a day how the hell are we going to pay our mortgage

 

[JR88FAN]

US job loss to outsourcing is usually unskilled labor or menial tasks. That means our education system needs work, and that we need to refocus on establishing an economy based on things that the US does better than others. The outsourcing you're seeing won't stop until all profitably-outsourceable jobs are outsourced, with or without your money - so you're protesting in vain in that regard.

If we're losing jobs to overseas competition, then the solution isn't an embargo or a protest, but rather finding a product that the US can manufacture cheaper than other countries. Fighting outsourcing by not buying the products is like throwing peas at a tank. The solution is to make a bigger, better tank that they can't produce as well or as cheaply.



Your nationalism is showing, by the way.

You really have no clue about what the global economy is, how it started, and who it benefits do you?

Are you copying text out of a government brochure on "how to compete in a global economy" ???

You will make a fine CEO one day sir.......

 

[rob32]

I recently bought a Ganzo, Enlan, and Sanrenmu, just to see what all the hubbub was about. Short shipping time ( from 3 different ebay sellers.) Great fit & finish, take great edges. I couldn't be more pleased, and for well under 50 bucks for the trio. I'm with rob32. If people want to hate'em and depress the prices...I'm all for it. LOL

I'm not sold on the SanRenMu knives. They aren't bad, but they just don't speak to me. My Ganzo and Enlan knives are ridiculous knives for the money. I prefer that $17.00 Enlan over Spydercos that cost 10x more. I occasionally buy new Enlan knives and give them away as gifts. I have yet to see a better knife at a price that is anywhere close to what they ask for Enlans.

I will also point out that my Ganzo knife with an axis lock has zero blade play, unlike many Benchmade knives.

My money is spent on support U.S. families unless I cannot find a reasonable U.S. equivalent.

As in I will buy an American made Spyderco over any other Spyderco, and be happy doing it even if it costs more.

If more people did this more U.S. jobs would exist, as demand rose jobs would start appearing to keep up with demand.

In the economical root form we can get base supplies from other countries when needed (at a cheaper cost) to use for manufacturing here and we are still strengthening our economy and providing jobs, when its the importing of manufactured goods we are xestroying american jobs and strengthening other economies..I am 100% against starving our own to feed someone else's.

People also get paid to refine those "base supplies" you speak of. Those are jobs you are happy outsourcing elsewhere, but want to keep manufacturing here?

The problem is, there is demand for products made in China. As long as that demand exists, people are going to continue buying products made in China.

 

[Comeuppance]

You really have no clue about what the global economy is, how it started, and who it benefits do you?

Are you copying text out of a government brochure on "how to compete in a global economy" ???

You will make a fine CEO one day sir.......

Please stop being antagonistic and insulting. You have contributed nothing to this discussion but dismissal without content or arguments or information of your own. If you're not willing to to anything but stand on a pedestal and look down on those having a discussion, then I would kindly ask you to refrain from posting in this thread until such time that you have a coherent point to make that doesn't involve demeaning statements, dismissive remarks, or implied or direct insults.

You stated you did not want to speed up this thread's demise, but you are actively doing so with your posts.

 

[JR88FAN]

You should think of China like the US was in the late 1800's and early 1900's. The good stuff at that time came from England and Germany by the way. But the US became an industrial power house centered around a few key industries; steel, oil, and transportation. You add in all the industries that supported those industries and you had "America". Few worker rights. Workers lived in camps. Workers were totally dependent on their jobs as there was no safety net. The first safety net was Social Security and FDR.

These things do not exist in China regardless of how much pressuring the US does for them to improve worker safety, reduce environmental discharges, wages, and so forth. If the country collapses as it is likely to do in the next 10 years, unions will become common place as they were in the 20th Century US. Only after Federal and State laws providing protections for workers have unions seen a decline.

I buy knives to cut stuff. Sometimes they are made in China. Most aren't. But the proportion of chinese products in my accumulation is increasing as their quality increases.

American corporations are already looking at moving out of China for some of the reasons you mentioned.
It's just getting too expensive to produce there.....

They are now looking at some area's of Africa for labor pools.
I am sure it's because they want to raise the "quality of life" in those countries as well....