Bladeforums and China: Broaden your perspectives, reconsider your prejudices.

[herisson]

You don't need to be an economic expert to suffer from the current state of things (AKA the globalized economy) and to reject it. China is only a part, but a very obvious one, in this matter. And by the way, whatever your reasons, be they geopolitics, macro or micro-economics, personal or social commitment, they may be well founded, or not, that's why we discuss and share opinions.

 

[herisson]

[But I don't buy knives to do good. I buy them to cut stuff.]

Yet I believe if you can buy knives to cut stuff and at the same time do the right thing, you would do it.

 

[22-rimfire]

My sense is that where stuff is being produced is decided very high above the level of simple consumer preference. This the chaff on the floor of global economic policy that's being fought over by multi-national corporations and their private investors (gaining power) and nation states (loosing power). Workers and consumers are just cogs.

Strip down and check the tag on your skivies. This emperor has no clothes. At least not made in the USA.

This be right. Pretty hard to be a purist. Simply snubbing a product because it was made in China is self defeating. What about stuff made in India, the Phillipines, South America, Mexico, and Canada?

Where were your shoes made? Where was the cloth made used to manufacture your shirt and pants? Where was the coffee grown that many people can't live without? We live in a world that the cogs of the wheel are intertwined and most complex. That's why when China stumbled in the last two weeks our stock market dropped 1000 points in a couple days. It is not just about the stability of a single country. It is about the stability of the entire world. This is why politics and economics are intermixed. Why do we care if Greece crumbles? It isn't Greece so much as Greece dragging down other countries and economies. Why do we care if Iran gets the nuclear bomb beyond the death/destruction threat? Stability...... it's ankles and elbows out there with companies clawing for market share.

If China stopped making knives tomorrow, would it really matter other than for an adjustment period as the balance is re-established? What about computers?

 

[HusslinHoosier]

I haven't read all five pages but I'll throw in my two cents. Knives to me functional art. I want to support makers who I can trust are treating their artists well so I will spend on Scandinavian, Japanese, Taiwan (Spyderco), and U.S.A. I don't have the time or desire to follow up every Chinese company and I trust some are fine but most seem to be out to primarily undercut labor costs so I avoid Chinese assembly. I also just don't like 813CrMoV, why eat margarine when butter is better?

 

[herisson]

That 8Cr13Mov performs actually well when made by companies who enforce efficient quality control on the chinese maker (and/or pay them according to the quality required). The butter is not only in the letters.

 

[The Mastiff]

I take being called a nationalist as a complement. I do try to buy american when the product value and quality is right. I have no intention to spend my money on an inferior product just to keep some americans job intact. He/She has to do that themselves just like everyone else.

I won't buy anything over Byrd price and value and that only because it is warranted by an american company I trust.

I would never trust a PRC company to provide the steel they say they are any more than I would buy food from them. Any people that are as corrupt from bottom to the top of their government as the PRC is doesn't get trust from anyone I'd count as sane without some form of testing and verification of the products authenticity and safety. We are talking about a country whose government encourages and takes part in the corrupt business practices that have seen counterfeiting on scales so vast it seems unimaginable. They have killed by some estimates over 20 thousand american pets with their lack of ethics and even have done the same with the baby milk sold to their own children. When someone gets caught in a way that embarrasses the government or riles up the citizens they merely make an example of that person(s) by taking them out and shooting them in the head and and billing the family for the bullet. Then they go about business as usual allowing people to steal as long as they don't get too greedy as the saying goes ( which now means don't cause public embarrassment, it's bad for business).

If you trust them to really sell you CPM S35VN in that knife then good for you. I think it's more than just naive to do so though.

Any for those that spout nonsense about they are not looking for a war because they need us for trade get real. They are exactly looking for a short, fast and decisive war to embarrass us and put fear into their neighbors. Their government officials and military officer class writes about this pretty often. It's out there waiting to read. They have a large need for nationalism to keep their own people from looking to hard inward and seeing the problems there. Do you think their laying claim to the entire sea of china is just a joke? Funny but the Vietnamese, Japanese, and Philippine people would disagree with the Chinese government having already committed what would be acts of war already if the opponents had a way to fight back.

The Chinese people themselves are very proud and nationalistic about their country and even their race and heritage.. What does it say when they flood our markets with counterfeits, knockoffs, mislabeled and even poisonous consumer products? To me it means trust but verify when doing business. If you buy directly from a PRC company you have no way of knowing what you just spent your money on. Looking almost eye perfect means nothing in the high end knife design area where I mostly reside. The Byrds are sure nice though. I have a box of them and have given away about 6 so far to people needing a quality knife to learn off of.

Joe

 

[Capolan]

My only concern is really with the blatant copying that's happening. I understand a varient of design, but if you go on DHGate for example they have "Striders" and "Chris Reeves" and "CKF Decepticon 1" and so on - and they aren't just similar, they are blatant rip offs of the real thing. A Decepticon with slightly less quality and a terrible blade steel can be had for 42 dollars. A blatant ripoff of a DD custom Strider - 15 dollars. This isn't a question of emulation, this is outright stealing, at least from a western culture perspective. China has shown one thing time and time again - they can reverse engineer ANYTHING but they have a very hard time creating anything.

One thing of interest is the whole intellectual property angle -- A great example is the rampant plagiarism that Chinese students here in the US are known for. They, when caught "cheating" genuinely do not understand what they did wrong. They genuinely feel that they were asked for an answer, and they provided said answer - they don't understand that they were supposed to derive that answer on their own. They don't value intellectual self, they value information as a a"thing" to be passed around. Intellectual property doesn't make sense to them, because intellectual property is a cultural thing not an inherent aspect of humanity.

This doesn't condone it, but it does explain it. To me, it's stealing - but I also recognize that to them it's not, they're simply using information. I also know that the Chinese produce exactly what is asked of them, regardless of the circumstances of how they get to the success of the ask. This means that when a toy company asks them "why did you put lead in the paint???" the Chinese company responds with "you told us to get the price per unit to "x", you never said get the price to "x" but don't use lead paint" They produce exactly what you ask. This means that they are entirely capable of producing to a quality level that is on par with any other "great" thing...if asked. They are, in many ways - like machines. They are like early back-in-the-day software developers that didn't infer, didn't really "think" - they did what was asked and only what was asked. I heard a software developer say to me "If you ask for vanilla pudding, I'll give you exactly that, in your hand. You didn't ask for a bowl, you didn't ask for a spoon - I did what you asked." This is China.

Knowing this - it's hard to be upset about any of it. It's the very way people are trained since they were children in China. As I said, I'm not condoning it but I can explain it, as well as understand it.

 

[22-rimfire]

My only concern is really with the blatant copying that's happening. <snip> This isn't a question of emulation, this is outright stealing, at least from a western culture perspective. China has shown one thing time and time again - they can reverse engineer ANYTHING but they have a very hard time creating anything.

The copying, intellectual property infringement, ignoring copyrights and patents, and so forth genuinely bother me.

One thing of interest is the whole intellectual property angle -- A great example is the rampant plagiarism that Chinese students here in the US are known for. They, when caught "cheating" genuinely do not understand what they did wrong. They genuinely feel that they were asked for an answer, and they provided said answer - they don't understand that they were supposed to derive that answer on their own. They don't value intellectual self, they value information as a a"thing" to be passed around. Intellectual property doesn't make sense to them, because intellectual property is a cultural thing not an inherent aspect of humanity.

Was not aware of the plagiarism angle especially after grade school age where students don't really understand the concept. Many US kids also are guilty of this.... just giving the right answer, but can't derive it on their own.

This doesn't condone it, but it does explain it. To me, it's stealing - but I also recognize that to them it's not, they're simply using information. I also know that the Chinese produce exactly what is asked of them, regardless of the circumstances of how they get to the success of the ask. This means that when a toy company asks them "why did you put lead in the paint???" the Chinese company responds with "you told us to get the price per unit to "x", you never said get the price to "x" but don't use lead paint" They produce exactly what you ask. This means that they are entirely capable of producing to a quality level that is on par with any other "great" thing...if asked. They are, in many ways - like machines. They are like early back-in-the-day software developers that didn't infer, didn't really "think" - they did what was asked and only what was asked. I heard a software developer say to me "If you ask for vanilla pudding, I'll give you exactly that, in your hand. You didn't ask for a bowl, you didn't ask for a spoon - I did what you asked." This is China.

Knowing this - it's hard to be upset about any of it. It's the very way people are trained since they were children in China. As I said, I'm not condoning it but I can explain it, as well as understand it.

Good post by the way. As a people, the Chinese are very nationalistic. Copying and selling products (counterfeiting) is a huge problem. Their government is under tremendous pressure to keep things rolling. Wars also keep the cogs of industry rolling and divert people's attention to national interests versus self interests. So, beware.

 

[herisson]

I understand quite well what you explain about the producing side but what about the buying side ? There always was, is and will be a market even for the most shameless counterfeits. It boggles my mind, but it's a reality. Knives are the smallest part of it. If there are enough people to buy counterfeit watches, handbags, shirts, tees, suitcases, (everything)... why wouldn't a dedicated industry thrive on this demand ? Especially in countries with low competencies (doesn't apply to China any longer, watch out...). It seems like a logical step-in (and available money pump...).

 

[craytab]

I was Wondering why he started a thread like this a day after his China counterfeit(sebenza) thread was closed. Their(CKAS) knife does look a lot like a Sebenza, but I can't see all of it, so it may not be a clone ???



But the thread title is the main reason I won't give my opinion here.
I don't need anyone telling me to "broaden my perspectives", or to "reconsider my prejudices".

And here is the problem. Asking folks to reconsider their prejudices after starting another thread where you promote a Chinese counterfeit does not compute. It makes zero rational sense.

I have no problem with Chinese manufactured knives, just ones infringing on patents, trademarks, or are "homages". And guess what? So does bfc thankfully! I'll leave the rest of my bs opinion out of this because this should be about knives, right?

 

[22-rimfire]

And here is the problem. Asking folks to reconsider their prejudices after starting another thread where you promote a Chinese counterfeit does not compute. It makes zero rational sense.

That is a different twist that I was not aware of.

Regardless of what I have said, I do have some basic prejudice against Chinese made knives. But I try to keep an open mind. Three years ago I would not have considered buying one to use. I did buy a couple Frost slippies to check out and was not impressed. But they were like $10 and $12.

 

[craytab]

That is a different twist that I was not aware of.

Perhaps promoting a counterfeit is a strong phrase but in essence that is what happened. The pictures that were posted for "discussion" while not hosted by the offending counterfeiters did have their company name in them. Not hard to figure out where to go buy one.

 

[OldSteel62]

I take being called a nationalist as a complement. I do try to buy american when the product value and quality is right. I have no intention to spend my money on an inferior product just to keep some americans job intact. He/She has to do that themselves just like everyone else.

I won't buy anything over Byrd price and value and that only because it is warranted by an american company I trust.

I would never trust a PRC company to provide the steel they say they are any more than I would buy food from them. Any people that are as corrupt from bottom to the top of their government as the PRC is doesn't get trust from anyone I'd count as sane without some form of testing and verification of the products authenticity and safety. We are talking about a country whose government encourages and takes part in the corrupt business practices that have seen counterfeiting on scales so vast it seems unimaginable. They have killed by some estimates over 20 thousand american pets with their lack of ethics and even have done the same with the baby milk sold to their own children. When someone gets caught in a way that embarrasses the government or riles up the citizens they merely make an example of that person(s) by taking them out and shooting them in the head and and billing the family for the bullet. Then they go about business as usual allowing people to steal as long as they don't get too greedy as the saying goes ( which now means don't cause public embarrassment, it's bad for business).

If you trust them to really sell you CPM S35VN in that knife then good for you. I think it's more than just naive to do so though.

Any for those that spout nonsense about they are not looking for a war because they need us for trade get real. They are exactly looking for a short, fast and decisive war to embarrass us and put fear into their neighbors. Their government officials and military officer class writes about this pretty often. It's out there waiting to read. They have a large need for nationalism to keep their own people from looking to hard inward and seeing the problems there. Do you think their laying claim to the entire sea of china is just a joke? Funny but the Vietnamese, Japanese, and Philippine people would disagree with the Chinese government having already committed what would be acts of war already if the opponents had a way to fight back.

The Chinese people themselves are very proud and nationalistic about their country and even their race and heritage.. What does it say when they flood our markets with counterfeits, knockoffs, mislabeled and even poisonous consumer products? To me it means trust but verify when doing business. If you buy directly from a PRC company you have no way of knowing what you just spent your money on. Looking almost eye perfect means nothing in the high end knife design area where I mostly reside. The Byrds are sure nice though. I have a box of them and have given away about 6 so far to people needing a quality knife to learn off of.

Joe

Could not have said it better myself. Thank you Joe.

 

[Bludgeon]

I only buy knives made in USA. I don't care where they source their knife making supplies as buying in the USA is as far as I'm willing to take it. So many other important things I prefer to deal with day to day including but not limited to...

"NFL FOOTBALL".

 

[madcityjim]

My only question is why don't the Chinese companies producing knives put their name on the knife. Then it would be much easier to judge quality. Maybe that's the reason.

 

[ichor]

I like you.


Best of luck to you all, Many soldiers have fought and died to keep America alive, and some of you are seriously spitting on their graves and dishonoring them and what they died for by purchasing from the very same countries that have killed them, just to save a few bucks.

Wow...that seems a bit of a stretch. Could you send a link regarding Chinese killing American soldiers? I couldn't find anything with a quick perusal on Google.

 

[bhyde]

I speak as someone who is head of Business Development for DHD Metal Fabrications, Dallas NC. Company can make anything out of metal. PERIOD. CNC machines, Laser cuts, Cad design, the options are endless. Every ATM machine made is from parts engineered at our plant. We use Ats-34, 1090, S30v, etc daily. We could laser cut a thousand knife blades in less than 20 mins. So If in fact you have a design, contact us. PROBLEM is $$, not labor. Machines cost millions and thus must produce products that turn CASH. Next is Union involvement at a Machinist level. With technology being what it is today and program designers doing most of the work, Machinist are simply not necessary, and certainly not at a Union Scale, which inflates cost and restricts development. We mfg. parts everyday that far outreach skill levels necessary to produce knives. That is why Chris Reeves, smiles every time a knife is sold. Tolerances are so exact and material so controlled, duplicating a product is easy. GOD bless the true talents of this world, the custom makers or the small shops. But CRK has proven that design, computer technology and proper machines = super products. We would welcome any product into our shop and could, without question produce a flawless product. However, our cost is higher and only the American buyer can support that option. Remember Japan and Germany have made the best knives produced, including the best Spydercos, for years. Global knife making is hundreds of years old. Anyone say, Seki City ??

This may be true for your company,..that is selling an entrenched product- That was setup and optimized by machinists and now employs button pushers. Introduce a new product and me an my ilk are very necessary. Slice it anyway you want to, but engineers cost too much to set up and run machinery..people off of the street can't typically do it..Push buttons? Sure..those are NOT machinists.
Judging by what you posted,..you have no idea what a machinist does. It's easy to look at someone and say all they do is push a button on a computerized machine..I often joke about the perception people have about this.. We just wave the blueprint around in front of the controllers on the machines and they do all the magic..It's a great laugh for us..Here is another one..just take raw material and set it inside any CNC and put it on for two minutes and DING..the part is done...WE MACHINISTS R DUM.
Yes...Chris Reeve is laughing all the way to the bank..because he doesn't pay for skilled machinists and high wages?...Pshhht...Because keeping those tolerances is easy? Where do you come up with this crap?

 

[Sosa]

Wow...that seems a bit of a stretch. Could you send a link regarding Chinese killing American soldiers? I couldn't find anything with a quick perusal on Google.

Vietnam and Korean wars ring a bell.

 

[davek14]

This may be true for your company,..that is selling an entrenched product- That was setup and optimized by machinists and now employs button pushers. Introduce a new product and me an my ilk are very necessary. Slice it anyway you want to, but engineers cost too much to set up and run machinery..people off of the street can't typically do it..Push buttons? Sure..those are NOT machinists.
Judging by what you posted,..you have no idea what a machinist does. It's easy to look at someone and say all they do is push a button on a computerized machine..I often joke about the perception people have about this.. We just wave the blueprint around in front of the controllers on the machines and they do all the magic..It's a great laugh for us..Here is another one..just take raw material and set it inside any CNC and put it on for two minutes and DING..the part is done...WE MACHINISTS R DUM.
Yes...Chris Reeve is laughing all the way to the bank..because he doesn't pay for skilled machinists and high wages?...Pshhht...Because keeping those tolerances is easy? Where do you come up with this crap?

Ssshhhh. Leave him alone. This attitude is why there is a shortage of machinists right now. I'm a 60 year old machinist and I want that to continue for a few more years.

I've seen the definition of a machinist as being someone who does something your boss has no clue about.

Actually, you could tie this into the "global economy" stuff. American workers have had to become technically trained and outproduce the third world countries' workers to keep their jobs. I did it back when Japan was taking over our steel, automobile, and machine tool industries. At the time Japan was found to be stealing our machine tool secrets. They paid the big fine, kept on truckin', and our American machine tool companies withered.

Things aren't so different.

***********************************************************************


Three machinists and three engineers are traveling by train to a conference. At the station, the three engineers each buy tickets and watch as the three machinists buy only a single ticket.

"How are three people going to travel on only one ticket?" asks an engineer. "Watch and you'll see," answers an machinist. They all board the train. The engineers take their respective seats but all three machinists cram into a restroom and close the door behind them.

Shortly after the train has departed, the conductor comes around collecting tickets. He knocks on the restroom door and says, "Ticket, please." The door opens just a crack and a single arm emerges with a ticket in hand. The conductor takes it and moves on.

The engineers saw this and agreed it was quite a clever idea. So after the conference, the engineers decide to copy the machinists on the return trip and save some money. When they get to the station they buy a single ticket for the return trip.

To their astonishment, the machinists don't buy a ticket at all. "How are you going to travel without a ticket?" asked one perplexed engineer.

"Watch and you'll see," answered an machinist. When they board the train the three machinists cram into a restroom and the three engineers cram into another one nearby. The train departs.

Shortly afterward, one of the machinists leaves his restroom and walks over to the restroom where the engineers are hiding. He knocks on the door and says, "Ticket, please."

*******************************

And to think, years ago I couldn't even spell CNC.

 

[Neomentat]

These types of discussions always brings out the worst in people. That's the thing, opinions are like you know what and everyone's got one.

And everyone's perception of reality is based on their social, economic background, life experiences, race, nationality, age, sex, education level, religious beliefs, political orientation, personality of their associates and so many other factors.

So many factors shape our individual perception of the world, and these type of discussions never yield anything positive because one can never change the opinion and attitude of another.