Bladeforums and China: Broaden your perspectives, reconsider your prejudices.

[Gator97]

(1) - Quality

...
** Reate, Rike, SanRenMu, Kizer, and Enlan are fairly prominent on these boards, some with their very own Subforums.

And there are far more nameless producers of knockofs and sub par knives. Which would explain general perception. I doubt that will change until majority changes.
And I'd be curious to know if SanReMu you listed above is actually licensing axis lock from Benchmade/ McHenry and Williams.

(2) - Intellectual Property

It strikes me as a gross oversimplification that borders on xenophobia to swear off all Chinese-manufactured knives just because some manufacturers in the country produce products that violate intellectual property. It's a true double-standard that exposes one's unjustified prejudices. How so? Consider US knifemakers: Will you never buy a U.S.-made knife because Microtech copied the 0777 with their Matrix design? What about Cold Steel copying the GI Tanto? Those are just a couple examples, but the point is made.

IMHO is is you who is grossly oversimplifying and at the same time downplaying the damage done by rampant IP theft in China. It's not just knives though. Anything that gets produced there has 99% or higher chance of having some part of IP stolen, or all of it.
What are you trying to say above, you can't tell the difference between producing counterfeits and using similar designs by established brands? Really?

...
I don't want to downplay the issues that counterfeits and clones present. I'm not saying that nothing crappy comes from China. What I am trying to get across is that you should reconsider making broad generalizations about China as if the entire country is culpable for the shoddy goods that US manufacturers commissioned in the first place.

You just did. And could you clarify how do we jump from don't wanna downplay counterfeits/clones into shoddy goods commissioned by US? What shoddy goods and how is that connected or how does it justify massive amount of counterfeits produced in China?

The counterfeits, while not commissioned, need a market to sustain the production. People are buying them. It's not a good thing, but, from their a business perspective, it's just a material good that can be produced for cheap without repercussions. However strongly you feel about intellectual property, it is not fair to lump all Chinese manufacturers together as if they all were mutually guilty.

For one, a lot of people are buying those counterfeits believing they are buying the real thing. If you can steal without repercussions, that doesn't make it any better does it? Aside from IP theft, it's also deception.

In the end, as you said yourself quality knife makers from China have a presence on this very forum, so what exactly is your worry? For the sake of PC we never discuss huge amount of issues with Chinese products and counterfeits?
Based on what evidence do you assume that most of the BF has the xenofobia issues anyway?

 

[ichor]

Vietnam and Korean wars ring a bell.

hmm...I was too young for Korea, but I don't recall seeing a single Chinese person in Vietnam...except for the occasional restaurant in Saigon, certainly not shooting at me....but not during the Tet offensive. Maybe if we had conducted an "official" war with China, and then spent years and billions building them back up ( as with Germany and Japan) to the point that they are our toughest competitors.) folks wouldn't be so tough on China, who have done it all without our help. Oddly, I haven't seen anyone spewing self righteous vitriol with regard to BMW's or Toyotas ( and Ferragamos, since there were without doubt, a few Italians who killed a few of us as well) Globalization is here to stay....grow up and accept the inevitable...Chinese copies of expensive knives is a fact which appears unlikely to change any time soon. People, especially Americans, just don't seem to be happy without rules.

 

[Surfingringo]

...People, especially Americans, just don't seem to be happy without rules.

I'm not sure its that so much as they're not happy when people come along and tell them they shouldn't call a spade a spade. We've been asked to dance to that pc tune for a while now and its gotten a bit tiresome.

eta: I like knives!

 

[Norcaldude]

Sort of relevant article about how Snapper decided to not do business with Walmart since they would have to lower the quality of their products and/or outsource their manufacturing: http://www.fastcompany.com/54763/man-who-said-no-wal-mart

You can be super gungho about buying only American made knives, but if you then buy everything else at Walmart because it saves you a few bucks, you're part of the problem.

 

[rob32]

My only question is why don't the Chinese companies producing knives put their name on the knife. Then it would be much easier to judge quality. Maybe that's the reason.

Many Chinese knife companies have their name and/or logo right on the knife. Some of them have been mentioned in this thread, SanRenMu, Enlan, Ganzo, and Triumph Precision (Kevin John). Those are all quality knifemakers in China.

Vietnam and Korean wars ring a bell.

Please tell me what Vietnam and Korea have to do with Chinese knives. Looking forward to your answer.

My only concern is really with the blatant copying that's happening. I understand a varient of design, but if you go on DHGate for example they have "Striders" and "Chris Reeves" and "CKF Decepticon 1" and so on - and they aren't just similar, they are blatant rip offs of the real thing. A Decepticon with slightly less quality and a terrible blade steel can be had for 42 dollars. A blatant ripoff of a DD custom Strider - 15 dollars. This isn't a question of emulation, this is outright stealing, at least from a western culture perspective. China has shown one thing time and time again - they can reverse engineer ANYTHING but they have a very hard time creating anything.

One thing of interest is the whole intellectual property angle -- A great example is the rampant plagiarism that Chinese students here in the US are known for. They, when caught "cheating" genuinely do not understand what they did wrong. They genuinely feel that they were asked for an answer, and they provided said answer - they don't understand that they were supposed to derive that answer on their own. They don't value intellectual self, they value information as a a"thing" to be passed around. Intellectual property doesn't make sense to them, because intellectual property is a cultural thing not an inherent aspect of humanity.

This doesn't condone it, but it does explain it. To me, it's stealing - but I also recognize that to them it's not, they're simply using information. I also know that the Chinese produce exactly what is asked of them, regardless of the circumstances of how they get to the success of the ask. This means that when a toy company asks them "why did you put lead in the paint???" the Chinese company responds with "you told us to get the price per unit to "x", you never said get the price to "x" but don't use lead paint" They produce exactly what you ask. This means that they are entirely capable of producing to a quality level that is on par with any other "great" thing...if asked. They are, in many ways - like machines. They are like early back-in-the-day software developers that didn't infer, didn't really "think" - they did what was asked and only what was asked. I heard a software developer say to me "If you ask for vanilla pudding, I'll give you exactly that, in your hand. You didn't ask for a bowl, you didn't ask for a spoon - I did what you asked." This is China.

Knowing this - it's hard to be upset about any of it. It's the very way people are trained since they were children in China. As I said, I'm not condoning it but I can explain it, as well as understand it.

I do understand why people get upset about counterfeits and clones. I get it. If another company designs a knife, and a Chinese company goes out and uses their design to make money, there is definitely an ethical issue at play. That is not the only issue, IMO. Before I became a member here I lurked for quite a while. I have seen videos and read tons of information concerning quality issues that have plagued some of the popular knife makers who sell knives in excess of $400.00. Yet, somehow, my Chinese counterfeit version of a $500 knife has zero issues whatsoever. Perfect fit and finish, perfect lock up, no blade play, ultra smooth action...all for about 25% of the price of the original. That sort of thing makes me wonder who the real crook is.

 

[trevitrace]

Now this thread will get some legs.

 

[Ajack60]

I have my reasons for not buying Chinese which I don't want to discuss.

When someone asks where is my knife made, I proudly say in the U.S.A., enough said.

 

[ichor]

I have my reasons for not buying Chinese which I don't want to discuss.

When someone asks where is my knife made, I proudly say in the U.S.A., enough said.

Well....that's a big phreaking help to the discussion. Thanks for the contribution.

 

[KenHash]

It really is not possible to keep politics out of any discussion on Chinese made knives for the simple reason that
there are geopolitical reasons why many people refuse to purchase them, a fact left out in the OP's initial post.
I also do not think such reasons can be termed "prejudice".

 

[btinder]

The controversy with Chinese knives revolves around two issues, IMO: 1) Counterfeits, which a surprising number of people do not have any issue with, and 2) the notion that spending more than $200 on a knife should get you something hand-made here in America. Spending $600 on a pocket-knife is not a necessary purchase; part of the appeal of a knife that expensive is the idea of it because hand-made by craftsmen, or at least produced in small numbers with discerning quality control. A blade that is hand-ground by a veteran at Greg Medford's shop carries more value (to many) than a Kershaw Brawler that was ground by a nameless machine.

 

[ichor]

A blade that is hand-ground by a veteran at Greg Medford's shop carries more value (to many) than a Kershaw Brawler that was ground by a nameless machine.

I wonder if Greg names his tools?

 

[AlvaroDPD]

i wonder when this obsession with wondering/ stamping everything with "made in X" became popular? Is it a relatively new concept? anyone know anything about this?

 

[Joshua J.]

I love buying stuff when it's a local brand marketing their own product, that pretty much applies anywhere. Thus the success of places like Himalayan Imports.
Also Condor Knives are awesome (I know they started with German ownership but I'm pretty sure that's not the case anymore).

 

[rob32]

A blade that is hand-ground by a veteran at Greg Medford's shop carries more value (to many) than a Kershaw Brawler that was ground by a nameless machine.

So, a blade hand-ground by some guy who happens to work for another guy named Greg increases the value of a knife to you? That sort of thing blows my mind.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Keep on buying china made stuff... But when your job gets 'delocalized' to china don't whine about it

 

[Sonnydaze]

I have read plenty of reviews, but am not convinced to "jump" at this point. There are so many others, of "known" reputation, to pick from...

 

[RevDevil]

This thread is teetering severely...and is ready to crumble into locked status.

 

[bhyde]

Ssshhhh. Leave him alone. This attitude is why there is a shortage of machinists right now. I'm a 60 year old machinist and I want that to continue for a few more years.

I've seen the definition of a machinist as being someone who does something your boss has no clue about.

Actually, you could tie this into the "global economy" stuff. American workers have had to become technically trained and outproduce the third world countries' workers to keep their jobs. I did it back when Japan was taking over our steel, automobile, and machine tool industries. At the time Japan was found to be stealing our machine tool secrets. They paid the big fine, kept on truckin', and our American machine tool companies withered.

Things aren't so different.

I know..Sometimes, it gets old to see some posted "facts" about the manufacturing community. Truth be known,..Offshoring worked out well for me. It cut down on the competing jobs so well, that I can charge a premium for my services..
There is another funny going on..Offshoring isn't the only thing taking place.. Automation and the software revolution is going to have a profound effect on the world in the coming years..Love me some automation..It means long hours for me in R&D and prototype work.

I do understand why people get upset about counterfeits and clones. I get it. If another company designs a knife, and a Chinese company goes out and uses their design to make money, there is definitely an ethical issue at play. That is not the only issue, IMO. Before I became a member here I lurked for quite a while. I have seen videos and read tons of information concerning quality issues that have plagued some of the popular knife makers who sell knives in excess of $400.00. Yet, somehow, my Chinese counterfeit version of a $500 knife has zero issues whatsoever. Perfect fit and finish, perfect lock up, no blade play, ultra smooth action...all for about 25% of the price of the original. That sort of thing makes me wonder who the real crook is.

Are you sure about the content of what you are posting? It's a counterfeit..No intellectual engagement whatsoever..Just copy and publish. The design was proven by the IP owner.

Well....that's a big phreaking help to the discussion. Thanks for the contribution.

You are pretty good at this yourself- Look at your tenure and post count and look at his...See anything that may be considered ironic?

 

[rob32]

Are you sure about the content of what you are posting? It's a counterfeit..No intellectual engagement whatsoever..Just copy and publish. The design was proven by the IP owner.

Quite sure. I have personally seen enough quality issues from high end knife companies in the USA without even taking into account all of the issues one can easily find online. My $10.00 SanRenMu has perfect blade centering and lock up, zero play in the blade, and it opens well enough. When I ot my hands on a $600.00 USA made knife for the first time, the lock stick was so bad I couldn't use it and the centering was off to the point where it rubbed. When you have big name companies in the USA who are known to produce knives with lock-rock, bad detents, and warranties that may or may not be honored, it is really hard to point the finger at Chinese knife makers as a whole to be avoided.

Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of USA made knives, as well as others around the world. The blind hate for Chinese knives on here is just silly at this point. Sure, there are some crappy knives coming out of China, but there are some crappy knives coming out of the USA too. Difference is, if I happen to get a bad Enlan knife for $16 bucks, (which I have yet to find) it's no big deal. Spending hundreds on a knife just for that made in the USA stamp just to get a crappy product? Kinda disappointing.

 

[Sosa]

If you have issues with a USA knife you send it in for warranty. Has anyone sent in a fancy reate? How was their service?