Bladesport chopper

Thats awesome Rick!!

I really like your style. My favorite i seen yet was the Bush Waki... An awesome looking piece there as well. And your leather work is also very impressive with a very cool style.
 
Just to throw my 02 in. I am a new Bladesport member. Most of the guys I know and I don't know all of them use CPM M4 except as mentioned Dan is using Vanadius 4E. There have even been comp knives made from 5160 and several other steels, but M4 is better. I am currently working on one made from W2 as I could not find 52100 in think enough stock. I am shooting for 5/16" finished spine. Some guys go as thick as 3/16". Also I am making my own and figure it might take a knife design or 2 or more before I find something I really like and M4 is very expesive for proto type stuff.

The fit of the knife makes a big difference. I am fortunate that I live fairly close to Donavon Phillips and he is helping me with my design. All the guys I have met in Bladesport are very willing to help. Real good bunch of guys there.
 
Am I to believe that if Dan K. switched from Vanadis 4E to 52100 or O1 he would not perform as well? I see a man who can handle a knife well and a well designed knife... but I think that the user and the geometry have more to do with it than the steel type.
 
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No Rick. I think Dan would do just fine with 52100 or O1 or a host of other steels. Hope my post didn't cause anyone to think you had to use M4 or some other exotic. He could probably beat me with a lawn mower blade. This is just my opinion based on my limited experience as there are a lot of guys that know more about cutting comps than me. I think for 1 or 2 rounds many steels could do fine in a contest, they would just need more sharpening. There are steels that take and hold a finer edge and M4 is one of them. but I would use 52100 and have no issue with it.

As you say geometry is a part of it as well as technique. Actually technique/practice, is probably the biggest part of it. Again, I am one of the new guys and have only been in 2 contest so far.
 
Do blades of 52100, 5160, L6, or O1 fail to make the fine cuts in the pool noodles, straws, paper towel tubes, or rope? Are the cuts made by CPM M4 superior?
 
Do you want to compete in Bladesport or do you want to win?

Many of the top competitors use M4. The winner uses others steels (Vanadis 4 Extra & PD-1). Maybe Dan uses the other steels as a handicap to give his competition a better chance of winning? Or maybe he uses other alloys to gain an advantage over his competition? What does common sense tell you?

Chuck
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
Do you want to compete in Bladesport or do you want to win?

Many of the top competitors use M4. The winner uses others steels (Vanadis 4 Extra & PD-1). Maybe Dan uses the other steels as a handicap to give his competition a better chance of winning? Or maybe he uses other alloys to gain an advantage over his competition? What does common sense tell you?

Chuck
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What? I'm just trying to figure out if M4 cuts straws better than L6. Obviously Dan cuts straws, among other things, better than anyone else.
 
me2 said:
What? I'm just trying to figure out if M4 cuts straws better than L6.
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That depends. From a standing start, probably not.

After hacking through two or more 2X4s and a few sections of coarse rope, not to mention a few golf balls and hardwood dowels, yeah probably. Otherwise everybody would be using low-allow, low-carbide steels like O1 or L6 or...

You guys need to remember that these are timed events and the winners are decided by points (cuts made or missed) and sometimes fractions of a second. There is no sharpening or touch-ups allowed during or between runs. Watch a few videos of sanctioned events and it will become clear.
 
me2 said:
Do blades of 52100, 5160, L6, or O1 fail to make the fine cuts in the pool noodles, straws, paper towel tubes, or rope? Are the cuts made by CPM M4 superior?
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I cut pool noodles, straws, paper towels tube, tennis balls, golf balls and so on with 52100 without any issues.

For the price of the steel 52100 is hard to beat IMO.

Here is a link to a thread on my comp cutter in 52100.. There are pictures and a few videos.... Now i have never competed and have no real training or experience to speak of.... And even in a novices hands this blade is impressive. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1192511-Keffeler-Competition-Cutter

Now like mentioned it has more to do with geometry and technique than the steel itself.... But "better" steels can be ran thinner and harder... Meaning better geometry with less risk of a failure, like rolling or chipping.

One big difference between a camp knife and a competition knife is if your out in the woods and you get a chip in the blade a lot of times you can keep working with it... If your in a competition and your blade chips out you can be disqualified. So picking a steel that can be ran thin enough for the slicing events yet stay strong enough for the chopping events is very important.
 
So that blade has about a 4 degree per side primary flat grind, with just a little flat near the spine? A full flat grind on a 1/4" x 2" blade gives a 3.6 degree per side primary angle, or ~ 4 degrees. This is before any curvature or other blade profiles are taken into account.
 
I think that Dan, like so many of us, uses what he feels is the appropriate steel... based largely on research done by others. Which works. I am not trying to downplay a knifemaker's ability to test their own knives but that steel exists because industry developed it. I met Dan at Blade Show this year and he is the nicest guy, intelligent and funny. He is also a substantial brute of a man... I can see why he uses a Silverback image for his business. I am willing to bet that if someone, somehow, swapped out his Vanadis blade for an exact duplicate in 1084, he would still do as well in that particular course and many would praise Vanadis 4E. I'm sure edge retention issues would rear their head, eventually... I'm not denying the performance potential of modern alloyed steel. I realize that I am making certain assertions here... it is just my personal opinion.
 
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Rick Marchand said:
I am willing to bet that if someone, somehow, swapped out his Vanadius blade for an exact duplicate in 1084, he would still do as well in that particular course and many would praise Vanadius 4E. I'm sure edge retention issues would rear their head, eventually... I'm not denying the performance potential of modern alloyed steel. I realize that I am making certain assertions here... it is just my personal opinion.
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Rick, you're saying that there's skill, strength and stamina involved in this sport as well as the science behind the blade. I don't think you need to be out on a limb to make that claim.
 
me2 said:
So that blade has about a 4 degree per side primary flat grind, with just a little flat near the spine? A full flat grind on a 1/4" x 2" blade gives a 3.6 degree per side primary angle, or ~ 4 degrees. This is before any curvature or other blade profiles are taken into account.
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Personally i would shoot for .32" thick not .25" but really anyone who wanted information on how to make a competition knife should contact Dan or another one of the competitors directly. Dan is a member here and a great guy. He has always been a pleasure to talk to and will explain thicknesses, primary angles, and steels with great knowledge.

Rick Marchand said:
I think that Dan, like so many of us, uses what he feels is the appropriate steel... based largely on research done by others. Which works. I am not trying to downplay a knifemaker's ability to test their own knives but that steel exists because industry developed it. I met Dan at Blade Show this year and he is the nicest guy, intelligent and funny. He is also a substantial brute of a man... I can see why he uses a Silverback image for his business. I am willing to bet that if someone, somehow, swapped out his Vanadius blade for an exact duplicate in 1084, he would still do as well in that particular course and many would praise Vanadius 4E. I'm sure edge retention issues would rear their head, eventually... I'm not denying the performance potential of modern alloyed steel. I realize that I am making certain assertions here... it is just my personal opinion.
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Rick, I talk to Dan quite a bit and from what i have gathered is he personally tests these steels himself. He also tests different HT protocols for the steels he uses and helps develop some of these HT protocols himself.. He doesnt just go off the research of others. He might start there... But he takes it and his cutlery to a whole new level.

Now im a NOOB when it comes to steels... But if 1084 or 01 or other steels performed as good as the harder to find, more expensive, steels id think logically more people, or someone... at least 1 person would compete with them... This is just my opinion though, as i would never pretend to know more than someone who works with steels all day.
 
Does no one use anything like O1 or L6, aside from whoever buys Rick's knife above? It's not as though O1 and 52100 are hugely different. O1 is easier to find in any given thickness/size.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I am willing to bet that if someone, somehow, swapped out his Vanadius blade for an exact duplicate in 1084, he would still do as well in that particular course and many would praise Vanadius 4E.
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I would take the bet.

For years I've watched Dan test his knives. I'm lucky to own an M4 short sword he made for testing. It is one of the sharpest knives I own. The edge geometry is amazing.

Dan continually tests new alloys, heat treating and edge geometry. He is a serious competitor who is always searching for an advantage. He told me Vanadis 4E and PD-1 were better than M4. The results of his research, testing and skill are apparent.

Chuck
 
worldwood said:
Now like mentioned it has more to do with geometry and technique than the steel itself.... But "better" steels can be ran thinner and harder... Meaning better geometry with less risk of a failure, like rolling or chipping.
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There it is!
 
Greater edge stability at thinner cross sections will surely trump in a cutting competition. If I came across as saying that alloyed steels aren't what they're cracked up to be, that was not my intention. I know the "ol' switcheroo" scenario with Dan was a stretch but I wanted to stress that it isn't just the steel. As knifemakers, many of us take for granted that when we discuss the advantages of steels, we mean when everything else(geometry/user skill) is highly tuned. There are some makers(not just the ones participating in this thread) that will read "M4 knives win competitions." and may either be disillusioned with the steel they have or dish out money for steel they may never be able to use to its full potential... and there are some knife buyers/users who will make ill-informed purchases based largely on steel type.

I'm probably just overthinking this whole thing... stuck in the house on a rainy day.
 
Rick Marchand said:
Greater edge stability at thinner cross sections will surely trump in a cutting competition... I'm probably just overthinking this whole thing... stuck in the house on a rainy day.
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Exactly. Apparently a couple guys didn't notice the several posts mentioning that, despite often looking similar in profile, comp knives and camp knives are very different ;)

It would be ill-advised to take a great camp knife with camp geometry to a competition, and sheer folly to take a race knife with race geometry into the woods for a week.
 
Wow, thanks for all the great info gents. I think I might have come to a decision in regards to what I'm gonna use for the steel on my first competition-style(probably won't compete for a while)knife. The info gleamed in this thread really helped. I think I'll use 52100 for my first blade and build technique/skill with it and if I decide I want to compete down the road I will buy a slab of M4 and make another one. This initial blade will give me time to get familiar with the blade design and refine it for a M4(or other expensive super steel) knife later on.

In terms of affordable steels like 52100, do you guys think there would be any better options for my first chopper?

Also, the only thing I haven't been able to figure out yet is the blade geometry on these things. I've looked for a bladesports forum and done "bladesports knives" searches on google and haven't been able to dig up much. Anyone know where I could find some more technical specs on these blades?

Again, thanks for all the great insight folks, I really appreciate it.
 
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