Boo to Tactical Knives

[Brian_T]

Originally posted by Spark
So how many of you are ready to boycott Blade as well? How many of you are ready to boycott Wal-Mart & Sam's Club for carrying knockoffs?

Heck, how many of you are willing to stop using Pay-Pal for trying to take away our Second Amendment rights?

It was wrong for TK to review Linton, no doubt. But if you are going to punish, you need to punish equally, right? Or is it just because there's a special place in some people's hearts for Linton?

I fail to see how Linton is going to suffer for any boycott of Tactical Knives - they are still going to sell to all the major distributors, and be trickled down to any & all dealers who carry them. Where do you draw the line? For that matter, why stop at half measures? Boycott everyone who has anything remotely derivative.

Spark,

You can be part of the problem or you can be part of the solution. I would think you had a dog in this fight and I'd hate to think it was on the wrong side.

You run the largest online discussion forum in the world of knives. There are 17,000 members here that look to you for some sort of leadership. Cowboy up and take a stand.

You're attempting to cloud the issue. This isn't about our Second Amendment Rights. Focus. If Paypal supported the theft of legitimate knifemakers' designs then I would certainly leave them in the dust. Unfortunately I have already walked away from Paypal for their own dubious practices.

It isn't just about a boycott of TK. Read the posts. I know you're a busy man with lots to do but understand that this is an extremely complex problem that is going to require many intelligent minds and many powerful people within the industry to come up with a viable solution. It's not going to be an overnight success and it's not just about Linton or TK.

 

[hardheart]

Originally posted by Brian_T
this is an extremely complex problem that is going to require many intelligent minds and many powerful people within the industry to come up with a viable solution.

doesn't require a bitch session on a message board

 

[R.A.T.]

Originally posted by Brian_T
Jeff,

It stinks that the meeting has been cancelled but now is not the time to just walk away from the table. If you hold an open meeting with all interested parties and come to some sort of organized agreement on how to deal with these knockoffs you're going to be MILES ahead of where we are now.

I'm willing to meet with anyone at anytime on this issue. I'm not walking away from the issue, but from past experience I am walking away with further discussion on it with TK.

All I'm looking for is a little bit of honor in the way the knife industry is portrayed in the knife media.

I'm a free market capitalist through and through. I don't care who gets into this industry. I don't care if they sell knives LIKE ours for 2 dollars. If they can find a way to make a profit and do it, then more power to them. What I do mind is unethical copying, then it being SUPPORTED and GLORIFIED by industry media.

Will I still read TK? Sure. Am I pissed off at Steve Dick or anyone at Harris, personally. No, it's just a business issue, nothing else. I just realize I'm fighting a losing battle at trying to get a change from them.

I wish them all the best and hope they continue to do well with their mag, but I don't have to support it directly with advertising dollars when I disagree with the editorial policy. That's simply a personal decision and MY opinion. I don't have to base MY opinion on Wal Mart, Sams club, other magazines, or even legal issues.

Anyway, any of you that are going to be at SHOT, drop by the Ontario booth and visit us. Would love to meet you guys.

Take care,

Jeff

 

[Brian_T]

Originally posted by Spark
So who's ready to boycott Strider for knocking of Ek's cordwrapped handles (or anyone else who ever cordwrapped a knife)? Who's ready to boycott Strider for badmouthing me, this site & 1SKS over a $5 discount, when they stood silent over SureFire's 25% discounting on their collaboration ($200+)? How many of you are willing to boycott SureFire for discounting Strider Knives? Again, where do you draw the line?

Spark, this is not, nor has it ever been about you and your problems with Strider Knives. I'd appreciate it if you could keep your perspective on this issue.

Justice goes both ways. You want to do some good? Find a lawyer who is willing to sue Linton into the ground over copyright infringement. If you can. Go after the people who commit the crime, not the third parties who are tangental to the entire process.
EDIT - Strider did the right thing in pulling their advertising. Perfectly reasonable response. I'd also go a step further and make sure none of my knives get reviewed there again. Same for anyone else who was directly knocked off. But a reader boycott? C'mon.

Legal avenues have not been terribly successful at stopping knockoffs so far have they? Why try to handle the problem on a company by company basis when we might just be able to organize those companies that are being knocked off and present a unified front to the distributors who are allowing the knockoffs to come into this country in the first place?

You can't change the world, you are right. But punishing a magazine for writing articles is ass backwards. First off, it's the responsibility of the company who is being knocked off to protect their designs. Spyderco does this. So does Gerber. So does Benchmade. So does Buck.

TK has provided an outlet for a company that has stolen the very designs they market and produce and that review has legitimized an otherwise unscrupulous company. Punishing a magazine for featuring a maker who steals designs is one good way of getting the message out that we are no longer going to stand for the constant stream of lesser-quality imported knockoffs.

It is NOT solely the responsibility of the company being knocked off to protect themselves. How much money do these companies have to pay every year in legal fees to protect that which they have worked so very hard to create? With your 17,000 members it seems like you could have a significant impact on the wallets of those who choose to do business with companies who make knockoffs. If we're not here to support and discuss our favorite knifemakers and companies then what the heck are we doing wasting so much bandwidth? It's not just about talking the talk.

Second, the only thing that these knockoff companies listen to is their wallet. Anything that doesn't DIRECTLY affect their wallet will be ignored. Get their cargo containers seized & the contents destroyed a few times because of Customs, and they'll get the message. Short of that, even lawsuits will have little effect.

See above. Cut off the distributors who choose to allow these knockoffs to come into our markets and see how long it takes for them to either drop the knockoffs or go toes up. Imagine if a company like Moteng no longer received product from Spyderco, Benchmade, Emerson, Kershaw, and Ontario. What the heck would they sell?

I know it's more fun to froth at the mouth and pretend that our righteous anger can actually have an effect on the real criminals, but it doesn't. At the same time, punishing those we can hurt, instead of those who actually deserve it, isn't really justice.

Who's pretending? The do-ers are always going to have more success than the say-ers. Sitting back and saying it's impossible is the easy way out. Why try to change things when status quo is good enough? The status quo is NOT good enough. Perhaps the companies that advertise here at BFC would like to know that they spend their advertising dollars supporting a forum that really doesn't care about them or their hard work.

I'm not saying you should support TK in light of this issue. Far from it. But if you are going to lay waste, make sure it's done to the appropriate people.

It seems the list of appropriate people might be growing every day. Magazines, distributors, retailers, manufacturers...the list may never end. Why give up before you've even tried to fight it though?

 

[Spark]

Ah, I see, it's much more reasonable to punish those who aren't involved in the actual crime than those who did it. Just like all those lawsuits against gun manufacturers instead of punishing the criminals who did the crimes, right?

Brian, you need to get a bit more clear headed on this. You have this burning urge to do something, anything. Yet, instead of taking action against those who actually did wrong, you'd rather punish those around them. Wow, that's a great attitude. How about if I come over to your house and burn it down because you know someone that slighted me? Would that be reasonable?

Unless I'm mistaken, none of these magazines, distributors, or dealers have "exclusivity" agreements with any particular company. Heck, I'd be willing to bet that if Moteng was cut off by Ontario, Spyderco, etc for carrying Linton, they'd have an actionable case with regards to restraint of trade. Of course I'm not a lawyer.

Again, you have a burning in your liver to do something. I don't have a problem with that. But unless you put that urge to do something into a productive course of action, all you are going to do is hurt people that don't deserve it, and generate a lot more harm through unintended consequences. If you can live with that, be prepared when it turns around and bites you in the ass.

Again, where do you draw the line, Brian? You don't like Linton - neither do I. So do your part to educate everyone you know about the crappy quality of their knives. Destroy them in your own testing & post the results. But don't be stupid about it. "BOYCOTT EVERYONE RARRRRRRRRRR!" may make you feel good, but it's hollow talk and ultimately ineffective. Worse, it can do more harm than good.

If manufacturers don't protect their designs, how is a lynch mob going to help things?

You want to do something? Like I said, find a good lawyer and contribute to suing Linton into the ground. Be smart. Educate others. But be realistic - the guy that buys a $15 Linton piece of junk isn't going to turn around and buy a Steve Ryan Black Knight. No one is saying give up; but be smart enough to pick the fights you can win, not the ones that "look good" but are ultimately futile.

Tactical Knives may have certainly aided the dilution of trademarks & copyrights with their article. Again, that is a matter for courts to decide, not you or I.

 

[R.A.T.]

Spark, I totally see your point and for the most part agree with it. I think each maker has to look at this as a personal issue.

I really hold no animosity for TK or its staff. I just look at it as a business decision they made. Obviously they're willing to stand behind that business decision even if the lose the Striders or other long-time advertisers. Hey, that's fair enough in my book. Free market capitalism and the consumer has a way of sorting things out. Especially when companies make certain business decisions.

TK will either change their ways or continue on the current path. Each has its own downfalls, and the consumer and maker will be the final judge over that.

I think each maker/company that advertises has to look at the net loss/gain on doing business with TK. Whichever suits their goals better will be the way they go.

Jeff

 

[Greg Covington]

Originally posted by Brian_T


You can be part of the problem or you can be part of the solution. I would think you had a dog in this fight and I'd hate to think it was on the wrong side.

Brian,

This just depends on what windmills you decide to joust.

Strider owners can get bent out of shape over the the Linton just as much as Rolex owners can be upset over the identical Seiko.

Linton took advantage of the Strider market because they were relatively easy to reproduce aesthetically. I am SURE they don't perform like a Strider. What creeps me out is that if these companies like Linton get a few brain cells and use the same steel with the proper heat treat...and still sell at that price...then you got a real problem.

Witness this with Blackjack.....I always said that if 15 minutes more was spent on a BJ 1-7 that they would be equal to the Randall in quality. One thing for sure, the BJ outperformed my Randall 1 in every aspect,(my Randall was O1), it was sharper out of the box, easier to resharpen, and held and edge longer. I took my BJ 1-7 and gave it that 15 minutes of extra work and now it is superior to a #1.

If Linton got smart and used good steel and heat treat, then that could leave people wondering why they spent so much more money on something else. And it wouldnt take very much to do that, nor would it raise the cost of the knife very much either.

I dont think Strider is losing their sales to Linton at all. But if you dont like a fake Rolex...dont but one. The thing is that if you make a high dollar item that is easy to copy on the surface, expect it to be copied.

Dont think Steve Dick isnt listening to the emails he gets....he is just an "old warrior" and isnt engaging in the mindless bantering going on here.

 

[DumboRAT]

DaveH

Originally posted by DaveH

I think it's a cultural thing, western and european cultures inhereited from Locke and etc. the concept of private property and consequently intellectual property rights. Some eastern cultures did not.

I know where you're coming from, don't worry, I'm not taking you the wrong way, hence the friendly smilies. Please know that it is not my intent to flame nor attack you at all.



Believe me, as a first-generation Chinese-American immigrant (Chinese by ancestry, Taiwanese by birth, proud American citizen ever since I signd my Selective Service card), I can say with certainty that "cloning," "piracy," and other such practices is as repugnant to our eyes as that of Westerners'.

Linton Knives and other such companies which clone have all been shunned by people within its domestic ranks and native culture.

You will not find an Asian blade-enthusiast Forum that holds them in positive light, and some noted enthusiasts have even gone so far as to ban their sales/trade or even mention on their own private enthusiast Forums.

Copying another's work -- taking advantage of another's blood, sweat, snd tears -- is just as wrong and despised in Far-Eastern cultures as it is in the West.

And although sadly most of the world's knock-off goods do indeed emerge from their shores, please know that it stems from the devious minds and black hearts of their respective greedy and honor-less corporate executives only, and is not a trait shared by the beautiful culture nor its people.



Allen
aka DumboRAT

 

[Brian_T]

Spark,

You are exactly right. I do have an urge to do something about this. I'm not satisfied with the reasoning that it's hopeless so we should just sit around and allow it to happen.

If going after those who support knockoffs isn't the way to stop knockoffs then please give me some guidance. That's what I've been looking for ever since I started this thread.

 

[Spark]

Originally posted by R.A.T.
Spark, I totally see your point and for the most part agree with it. I think each maker has to look at this as a personal issue.

TK will either change their ways or continue on the current path. Each has its own downfalls, and the consumer and maker will be the final judge over that.

I think each maker/company that advertises has to look at the net loss/gain on doing business with TK.
Jeff

My point exactly. Magazines pay more attention to advertising dollars than comments on the forums. Like I said, if I was Strider, I'd make sure that they never saw another of my $$$ again, never had one of my knives for a review, and would advertise with one of their competitors. Furthermore, if I'd had my designs copywritten or trademarked, I'd hit them for trademark dilution. But I'd hit the main culprit first and deal with the small fry later.

 

[Spark]

Originally posted by Brian_T
Spark,

You are exactly right. I do have an urge to do something about this. I'm not satisfied with the reasoning that it's hopeless so we should just sit around and allow it to happen.

If going after those who support knockoffs isn't the way to stop knockoffs then please give me some guidance. That's what I've been looking for ever since I started this thread.

If you can stomach it, get a couple for review and rate them head to head. Spread the word about their quality (and lack thereof). Make a big stink. Advertise better alternatives for the same price. Bug your Senator to tighten import restrictions. Heck, use a lawyer. Send copies of your knife purchase receipts that you got from other dealers to ones that carry the knockoffs & let them know why you don't do business with them. ETC ETC ETC. There's tons of ways to work within the system.

But be smart and pick your battles. That's all I'm asking.

 

[DaveH]

Allen, I sure you're right and I'm ignorant about that. Sorry. :footinmou

 

[lifter4Him]

It has been said before but I'll say it again.
Even though we on the internet think it's all about us or we control so much, knife collectors on the internet are only a very small part of the knife buying public. We are important but not that important.

Steven Dick doesnt care what we think and Harris Pub., his boss cares even less. It's about money, nothing else. And they are no different than the other mags. Where was the boycott when Mike"the king of the cloners" Turber's knife was on the cover of Blade a few months ago?

I have been told by 2 folks whose knives have been on the cover of both these magazines that despite the mags vehement denials, the covers are bought every month, sometimes for as little as $3000. They are no different than most other businesses, they are whores. Try talking to the editors when you see them at shows, you'll get some of the funniest double talk, and watch them do a michael jackson dance around the issues. I tried having a conversation with one editor who claims he was a ranger back when the Ron Hood internet debate was going on. Let's just say I felt like I needed a shower after we talked.

Personally I would like to see TK get a new editor and that is what my letters to Harris Publications read. But boycotting the mag will not do a thing, just dont buy the knives.

Anyway, just MHO.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Spark, you are right that we should go after the crimals, but we should also go after those that facilitate the acts of the criminals. Writing a glowing review of a Linton product is in my opinion aiding and abetting this company in carrying out its objectives.

When I first saw the Strider knockoffs that Linton were producing I emailed Linton in Taipei and let them know what I thought of what they were doing. I never received a reply. It is hard for an individual like myself to go after Linton in any meaningful way. I have boycotted the company and let everyone that I could think of know about what they have done. Besides that I don't have any ideas on how to do something that would be more effective.

 

[Greg Covington]

I have been told by 2 folks whose knives have been on the cover of both these magazines that despite the mags vehement denials, the covers are bought every month, sometimes for as little as $3000.

Dave,

I dont know about the covers, but when TK ran an article on me last year I had and have never advertised with them. Their main concern was if I was a serious knifemaker or just a hobbyist. It was expressed to me that they did not want to run an article and then let the reader down. They also wanted to use the knives and the writer did that very well. The article an testing was not just fluff. TK has never received advertising dollars from me...not that I would not advertise with them, they would be my first pick, but I simply have all the business I can handle right now.

TK has done infinitely more good for Strider than any damage from one article with a knock-off.

 

[DaveH]

If covers are $3000, maybe we should chip in together and buy a "Just say NO to the RIP-OFF Clones!!"

Bwhahaha,

 

[BigMike]

Originally posted by Spark

Unless I'm mistaken, none of these magazines, distributors, or dealers have "exclusivity" agreements with any particular company. Heck, I'd be willing to bet that if Moteng was cut off by Ontario, Spyderco, etc for carrying Linton, they'd have an actionable case with regards to restraint of trade. Of course I'm not a lawyer.

This is not true at all.
This trend has been going on for at least 10 years in the firearms industry.
Name one distributor (not a retailer or reseller) that carries Glock, S&W, and Ruger.

Each one has some type of agreement (probably better worded as a "Threat to cut-off") with their distributors over the other 2 companies. Smith may not be a player in this, but if memory serves:
Glock will not sell to a nationwide distributor if that distributor carries Ruger or Smith.
Ruger will cut off anyone that carries Glock or Smith.
A distributor I worked for in the late 90's had to liquidate or not offer for sale any S&W if they wanted to continue as a Ruger distributor.

I believe the kerfuffle arose from Sigma infringing on Glock's patents and then just evolved into knocking the others out as competition. Several knife companies have done well if not better by going dealer direct...perhaps that may be an answer.

As to the magazine, I agree infringed upon manufacturers should pull advertising from offending publication. See how many issues of TK can be sold with Craptastic knives on the cover, in the ads, or up for review.

Perhaps the makers should look into forming their own combined catalog/magazine etc. Surefire has done it, are people trying to say that the Tactical knife market is smaller or more specialized than the tactical Light market?

 

[Spark]

Originally posted by BigMike
This is not true at all.
This trend has been going on for at least 10 years in the firearms industry.
Name one distributor (not a retailer or reseller) that carries Glock, S&W, and Ruger.

That may play in the gun world, but not knives. If there is already an agreement in force, more power to them, but good luck getting one in place these days. The gun industry is a multi-billion dollar one, and any of the above companies sales dwarf those of the typical knife company. If you don't have that kind of pull, good luck getting it enforced. Like I said, lack of an exclusivity agreement makes it difficult to take any action like this - at least for that reason.

 

[BigMike]

I just used the firearms industry as an example, because it was my industry for many years.

I've seen it happen elsewhere, any maker could put that forth to any distributor. If it were me I'd even use the argument of patent infringement perhaps even to protect my work from theft. (If Distributor A carries Company B's wares, there's the potential that Distributor A could sell my product to Company B and Company B could reverse engineer it , etc)

The whole situation may not make economic sense, for instance if Wallawalla Knife Distributor carries POS Knives and I say, "Hey...if you sell their crap I'm going to cut you off." Wallawalla could say,"Well we make $x amount of dollars from them which is $y more than we get from you. Good Luck." Then I could be left with no distributors willing to sell my product.

Also, if you read my post, I was speaking of more than just a mere "agreement", it was more or less an issue of "pick one, us or them". The agreement came in after the fact.

Knife companies already do the same with certain companies refusing to let their models be sold or advertised at certain pricepoints, such as C.A.S. Iberia. Another route would be to ammend that to include "you may not advertise with models from Company B, C, or D".
Such an argument would hold up in court on the basis that customers could be misled into buying a knockoff if it's advertised with the model being copied.

 

[Spark]

Actually, price fixing has been found illegal many times over. It's just expensive as hell to fight... which is why some companies try to get around the issue by "holding back" shipments from those that don't comply.

Like I said before, you have to hit someone heavily in the wallet before you can get massive change in something like this, and even then... good luck. Knife sales are small potatoes compared to guns. Good luck getting something like that enforced - especially when dealing with copyright infringement instead of design patents.