Brand New BK9 Failure!

[CarpScot]

the blade was being hammered right into a double knotted area - the wood must be incredibly dense there, even if it were soft wood.

:thumbup:

That is an odd brake. If I had seen it without an explanation I would have thought the knife had been wedged into something and struck from the side.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Trying to baton through wood like that CAN put significant side loads on the blade, causing a break like that.

 

[dcgisme]

Out of curiosity, what were you using as a baton? If it was a piece of wood, then that should never have happened. If, however, you were using steel (a hammer, for instance), then a fracture would indeed be possible.

It looks like -- and this is just a personal observation -- you got a BK-9 with a bad heat treat, which can happen with any steel, from any manufacturer.

As far as fair use, Ethan Becker has stated that he considers batonning to be normal usage of his knives, and he stands behind them. My suggestion would be to tell the manufacturer (Ka-Bar) what has happened, tell them the circumstances, and send your pictures, too. Ka-Bar is an old and reputable manufacturer who has a history of standing behind their products. If, for some reason, you don't get any satisfaction from Ka-Bar (which I can't imagine), I suggest you email Ethan Becker directly. He's said in the past that he wants to know about this kind of thing: I suspect he will make sure that it gets taken care of. Not only does he check in here from time to time, but he's also moderator on this board. You should be able to click his signature to get his email address.

We never use metal of any kind on our knives; the baton was a smaller log of the same species of wood.

Again, that was kind of the irony and in my limited experiences the knife tends to get stuck, resulting in our typically focusing on a different piece of wood. I posted because I've never had a knife just break in the maner this one did.

I'll attempt to resolve this with Ka-Bar (first and foremost) and bear in mind your helpful suggestions regarding Mr. Becker himself.

 

[dcgisme]

no one is commenting on the wood (structure).

take a look at it, brethren.

the blade was being hammered right into a double knotted area - the wood must be incredibly dense there, even if it were soft wood.

what do you think?

vec

You make a good observation vector001, and that is what part of this discussion is evolving into: what constitutes fair use for a 9 inch, 1095 heat treated blade? Is the occasional batoning of hard, even knotty wood considered fair game?

I mean, I got a large Becker BK9 for a very specific reason and the intent was to replace a small woods hatchet. The idea was to see how well it could chop and baton down wood (I have smaller 3-4 inch blades for lighter, more delicate work) in lieu of a more traditional small ax.

 

[dcgisme]

It's difficult to tell from a 2 word reply, but B&B may mean that the blade is too hard. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but that was my first thought when I saw the break. Is it possible that the blade twisted when it hit a knot?

I have...ahhhh...a negative opinion of this guy, but here's a video of a destruction test of a BK9. I don't know what kind of wood he in batoning the blade into, but it looks pretty hard.

http://www.knifetests.com/page5.html

Cliff Stamp (GASP!) also tested a BK9 and broke it during a flex test.

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/becker_combat_bowie.html

Your links also kind of make a point UffDa: we were in no way intentionally trying to break this tool. No stabbing tanks or putting this thing into a vise. No hours of batoning the hardest, most knot riddled wood on the planet.

Just out for all of (maybe) half an hour with a brand new BK9 batoning down, admittedly, some pretty hard wood. Nothing more then that.

So my evolving question is what dose the gang consider to be practical limits for a large, 9" cutting tool like a Becker BK9? Knowing I purchased it for bushcraft, campcraft and survival purposes with the intent of possibly replacing a small ax or large hatchet with it.

Only conifers and pine wood are permissible? Strait grained, virtually knot free wood only? I ask for personal edification and future use (not to be any kind of a smart ass), as I may not always have the convenience of cabin and could be much deeper in the woods, having a much more primitive focus.

 

[Any Cal.]

Once again, I am not saying whether that use was within the practical limits of that knife, but consider this: That piece of wood is one that you could not have touched with a small axe or hatchet. You would have a difficult time making a split through that with a maul.

This begs the question, "Is using a large knife for a job that would be a chore for an 8lb maul considered within the practical range for the knife?" Also, what would be the particular need for splitting through a knot like that rather than leaving the knot intact and removing other sections? Not that the answer matters, but if cutting through a knot such as that is not required, is it part of what should be considered a requirement for the tool?

I would bet that if the knot was farther down in the log, the knife would have fared better, as it would have been better supported laterally due to being pinched between the two sides of the splitting wood.

 

[dcgisme]

Once again, I am not saying whether that use was within the practical limits of that knife, but consider this: That piece of wood is one that you could not have touched with a small axe or hatchet. You would have a difficult time making a split through that with a maul.

This begs the question, "Is using a large knife for a job that would be a chore for an 8lb maul considered within the practical range for the knife?" Also, what would be the particular need for splitting through a knot like that rather than leaving the knot intact and removing other sections? Not that the answer matters, but if cutting through a knot such as that is not required, is it part of what should be considered a requirement for the tool?

I would bet that if the knot was farther down in the log, the knife would have fared better, as it would have been better supported laterally due to being pinched between the two sides of the splitting wood.

I think you make a really good point Any Cal.

However, this thread has kinda become two parts and I agree I would not, on any routine basis, make use of a BK9 in place of a 8lb maul. No doubt. Likewise, I'd fully agree that "cutting through a knot" is not a practical or routine need - let alone a desirable thing to do. Again, this was a pure fluke and/or accident of placement.

All that said, in my experience, a hatchet and/or small forest ax make use of different mechanics then a large 9 inch blade when being batoned. The force of energy and distribution of cutting surface is a bit different between the two tools and, thus, my attempts to see if a well made, large bladed knife can suffice for light to moderate chopping and (perhaps?) even out perform a small ax for some batoning work?

I figure couple up a 9 to 10 inch blade with a well made compact saw (along with a 3-4 inch bushcrafter) and I've got most critical need (cutting) bases covered?

The bottom line (second part of the discussion) is: should the blade have broken in the way that it did - as many who have viewed the pictures agree it looks like a defect and/or uneven hardening. Perhaps a portion of the blade had become too brittle?

 

[moonwilson]

Wowsers. That is the most spectacular, catastrophic blade failure I have ever seen. You shouldn't be able to break 1095 that thick, no matter how how hard you wail on it. There might have been an inclusion/air pocket in the steel, or it wasn't tempered properly. I would think any manufacturer would cover that under warranty. I have beaten my Ka-Bar cutlass (same steel, same maker) with all of the force I could muster countless times, and it hasn't so much as whimpered. And it's not as thick as that beast.

Send that puppy in! Ka-Bar will probably replace it.

 

[Any Cal.]

thus, my attempts to see if a well made, large bladed knife can suffice for light to moderate chopping and (perhaps?) even out perform a small ax for some batoning work?

The 9" will definitely outperform a small axe for splitting, unless you get into the use of wedges. Really, my preferred woods combo is a saw coupled with a long blade. While the axe can chop better, IMO the knife will do a better job of splitting tougher wood,(straight grained stuff doesn't really matter) and the saw makes the need to chop a non issue.

If I sound like I think they work, check out my BK9 review here.

I don't mean to derail the thread, just to say that I think that you are on the right track with your combo idea.

 

[dawsonbob]

I think you make a really good point Any Cal.

However, this thread has kinda become two parts and I agree I would not, on any routine basis, make use of a BK9 in place of a 8lb maul. No doubt. Likewise, I'd fully agree that "cutting through a knot" is not a practical or routine need - let alone a desirable thing to do. Again, this was a pure fluke and/or accident of placement.

All that said, in my experience, a hatchet and/or small forest ax make use of different mechanics then a large 9 inch blade when being batoned. The force of energy and distribution of cutting surface is a bit different between the two tools and, thus, my attempts to see if a well made, large bladed knife can suffice for light to moderate chopping and (perhaps?) even out perform a small ax for some batoning work?

I figure couple up a 9 to 10 inch blade with a well made compact saw (along with a 3-4 inch bushcrafter) and I've got most critical need (cutting) bases covered?

The bottom line (second part of the discussion) is: should the blade have broken in the way that it did - as many who have viewed the pictures agree it looks like a defect and/or uneven hardening. Perhaps a portion of the blade had become too brittle?

This thread has become a two parter, and there have been some interesting observations. Addressing the splitting maul vs. knife issue, I think we all agree that we're comparing apples and oranges. A splitting maul is able to split well through redirection of force, as it turns forward (or downward) force into lateral force due to its wedge shape. A maul is basically two inclined planes forming a wedge; downward force becomes lateral force due to the thickness of the maul and the shape. A knife such as the BK-9 has much less thickness and is far more dependent upon cutting ability, rather than lateral redirection of force. Even the BK-2, having a thicker blade, transfers more lateral force and is therefore a better splitter. An axe or a hatchet is thicker still, and transfers more lateral force for splitting.

Regarding the material that dcgisme was trying to split: yes, it was a really nasty piece of oak that would have been better handled with an axe or a maul, but, in my humble opinion, should not have caused the catastrophic failure of the BK-9 that he experienced. As moonwilson said, there is no way that 1095 should have failed like that. I think he's right that it could have been an inclusion or a bad heat treatment.

I would think Ka-Bar would be very interested (for their own QC reasons) in this failure, but should replace the knife without question. If, for some reason they don't, Ethan Becker will take an interest and make sure that Ka-Bar does right by dcgisme. Ethan has also suggested that, if anyone has problems with customer service on an issue like this, they contact the president of Ka-Bar. Apparently he and Ethan are of the same mind on this kind of thing.

As an aside, I might mention that this week might be a bad time for this kind of thing, since both Ethan and Ka-Bar are pretty wrapped up in the upcoming Blade show (this weekend) at the moment.

 

[chewbacca]

I am pretty shocked at the way it broke as well.

I would say most of us buy these knives to play with. If I was in a survival situation, I would do my best to preserve my most important tool, my knife.

However, if I have access to other knives, and I am not in the middle of nowhere...Yeah I would try to baton that log with my BK9.

 

[chewbacca]

It's difficult to tell from a 2 word reply, but B&B may mean that the blade is too hard. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but that was my first thought when I saw the break. Is it possible that the blade twisted when it hit a knot?

I have...ahhhh...a negative opinion of this guy, but here's a video of a destruction test of a BK9. I don't know what kind of wood he in batoning the blade into, but it looks pretty hard.

http://www.knifetests.com/page5.html

Cliff Stamp (GASP!) also tested a BK9 and broke it during a flex test.

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/becker_combat_bowie.html

Just wanted to say, that cutleryscience.com review is from 2006, making it a Camillus BK9. Different heat treat, different steel, different blade thickness...different knife.

 

[dawsonbob]

Just wanted to say, that cutleryscience.com review is from 2006, making it a Camillus BK9. Different heat treat, different steel, different blade thickness...different knife.

Yes, it would make it the Camillus version. Supposedly, the Ka-Bar version is tougher than the Camillus version.

 

[Any Cal.]

Addressing the splitting maul vs. knife issue, I think we all agree that we're comparing apples and oranges. A splitting maul is able to split well through redirection of force, as it turns forward (or downward) force into lateral force due to its wedge shape. A maul is basically two inclined planes forming a wedge; downward force becomes lateral force due to the thickness of the maul and the shape. A knife such as the BK-9 has much less thickness and is far more dependent upon cutting ability, rather than lateral redirection of force.

I don't have a problem with anything you said, but my point wasn't to compare the BK9 to a maul, but rather to help the OP decide whether or not he believed that was a practical application of the tool.

Other than that, +1 to much of what you said.

 

[chuckinohio]

I would highly suspect the heat treat on that blade. Did it only break in one place or did it break in two or more?
Looking at the pictures, it appears that it may have broken into three pieces. The smaller Radius behind the larger semi circular breakout is what I am referring to.
That is an odd break to say the least, I would have expected a failure of that magnitude to have been more squared off, or to have taken the entire tip off of the knife. Even laterally loading the knife while stuck into a knot wouldn't have resulted in a breakout shaped like that would it?
I am assuming that the KaBeckers are through hardened correct? Being differentially hardened would account for damage staying focused along the edge such as the pictures demonstrate.
I would venture to guess that Ethan would be very interested to see the photos and even the knife itself, and would further suppose that KaBar will make that Knife good for you.

Chuck

 

[dawsonbob]

I don't have a problem with anything you said, but my point wasn't to compare the BK9 to a maul, but rather to help the OP decide whether or not he believed that was a practical application of the tool.

Other than that, +1 to much of what you said.

Apologies if I seemed a little off track there, but I was trying to address the different usages of the two types of tools before the thread became a contest between mauls and knives, and which is better: they're just different, and each has a place. I can see that you were trying to help the OP, and your points were well taken. I certainly wasn't trying to derail that.

 

[dcgisme]

The 9" will definitely outperform a small axe for splitting, unless you get into the use of wedges. Really, my preferred woods combo is a saw coupled with a long blade. While the axe can chop better, IMO the knife will do a better job of splitting tougher wood,(straight grained stuff doesn't really matter) and the saw makes the need to chop a non issue.

If I sound like I think they work, check out my BK9 review here.

I don't mean to derail the thread, just to say that I think that you are on the right track with your combo idea.

Hmm, at the risk of this thread gaining yet a third facet, good to hear others are finding a large blade + pack saw + smaller knife a reliable, maybe even efficient combination.

Thanks for the link to the review and site; both seem well done.

 

[dcgisme]

I would highly suspect the heat treat on that blade. Did it only break in one place or did it break in two or more?
Looking at the pictures, it appears that it may have broken into three pieces. The smaller Radius behind the larger semi circular breakout is what I am referring to.
That is an odd break to say the least, I would have expected a failure of that magnitude to have been more squared off, or to have taken the entire tip off of the knife. Even laterally loading the knife while stuck into a knot wouldn't have resulted in a breakout shaped like that would it?
I am assuming that the KaBeckers are through hardened correct? Being differentially hardened would account for damage staying focused along the edge such as the pictures demonstrate.
I would venture to guess that Ethan would be very interested to see the photos and even the knife itself, and would further suppose that KaBar will make that Knife good for you.

Chuck

Your analysis is pretty spot on chuckinohio: the blade broke in three, possibly four pieces, if I recall correctly. This is why I used the term "shattered" for the Flickr shots.

We only dug out the largest of the pieces for the photos. And yes, all breakage was along the blade edge and bottom half of second bevel.

 

[chuckinohio]

Hmmmm.

Am I wrong in assuming that a differentially treated blade would break like that, or is it simply that it is through hardened to too high of a Rc number?
The reason that I ask is, if it was through hardened would not the whole end of the blade have failed?
I may be all wet with my figuring, the truth of the matter would be to have the blade and any recovered pieces tested to see where they Rockwell.
A local machine shop should be able to test the blade for you if you are so inclined and have access to one.

Chuck

 

[exidor]

Dam,Dam,Dam! I'd say problem with heat treat also.lazy bastards!at ka-bar put down the cel phone and watch your work! send it back send it back!