Breaking skelotonized knife while batoning

schmittie

schmittie

Joined
Nov 28, 2009
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I hope I don't get in trouble asking this here but what do you makers think? There has been some complaints out there over the last few months from some of the users that purchased Spyderco's UK Bushcraft knife and breaking it. I'm refering to the factory seconds, the ones that were having problems with the "stabilized" maple burl. I've read that several people have broken their knife when batoning with it. No I have no broken mine, and yes I have split wood with it. But it was only small pieces. The blade is less than 5 inches so there's not much you can do.

The reason why I'm asking you guys is because I've not seen anyone post this question to knife makers. (If I missed it, sorry!) You guys seem to have the most knowledge on anything technical. It's a full tang knife but the handle is skelotonized. Was that a bad idea on Spyderco's end? Or is that not unheard of? Does a properly made skelotonized knife still not a knife to baton with?

For what its worth, I really like mine so far. It was a steal at $90.

100_0351.jpg
 
I think it depends a lot on how it is skeletonized. A bunch of holes that line up in a way where you've perforated your part like a perforated stamp and the metal gets really thin in important areas is a bad idea.

I feel that this tang was skeletonized in a way that minimizes risk of failure. One could debate the pros and cons of skeletonizing vs tapering, but either improve the balance of most knives.

mete3.jpg


I have not seen the spiderco tang. I can say that non functional hole in the blade doesn't look like a great idea.
 
somewhere there was an article, or blog that batoning incorrectly will break just about any knife. Full tang or hidden tang. I think those who now have broken knives have learned a valuable lesson on what should and should not be done with a knife. Custom or factory.
 
Is this like the tang in question?

Balance_Skeleton.sized.jpg


that might be improved by tapering the skeletonizing rather than the uniform thickness throughout. There isn't enough meat near the guard area and the transition is too extreme = stress riser and weak.

... actually, it probably isn't extremely weak, but it could certainly be stronger with a large radius going into the guard area. Minimizing weight in the guard area doesn't improve balance much anyway.

.. my .02...
 
A full tang knife should not break unless it is significantly bent and a knife designed for bushcraft should be able to take just about any amount of batoning.

I saw a broken Spyderco Bushcrafter and IMHO the holes in the handle were too big and the tang too hard.
 
Hmm, maybe I described the tang incorrectly. I too remember seeing what the tang looked like on this UK Bushcraft knife. It has large holes drilled into the handle. So maybe saying it was "skeletonized" was a little deceiving. Its more like Swiss cheese.
 
In my opinion the act of "batoning" a knife is an act of desperation. The person that does this to a knife should accept the outcome of this abuse as a product of their actions, not a judgement of the knife. I would no more do that to a knife than I would use a torque wrench for a hammer, as a matter of life or death I might, but then accept the consequences.
I never heard of abusing a knife like this intil the last several years, and think it is mostly done by journalists in vacant lots near their homes. An outdoorsman should have an axe for breaking down wood. Even the journalist outdoorsman "Nesmuck" had an axe and two knives to further delineate the tasks required of the edged tools.
If you must "baton" to save your life do it, but if you just want to imitate your favorite writer don't blame the manufacturer of the tool for the outcome of your entertainment.

~Alden
 
There is actually a tool designed for this task, it is not called a knife, it is called a Froe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Froe

http://www.amazon.com/Peavey-Shingle-Froe/dp/B0037M8QSQ

read about it in Eric Sloane's book "A Museum of Early American Tools"

http://www.amazon.com/Museum-Early-American-Tools-Americana/dp/0486425606

Batoning a knife is stupid and should only me used in extreme survival situations where there is no other option. Yes I have done it once with one of my knives to cut open the door on a Dodge Diplomat that the locks were frozen in an emergency, I was not surprized when the tip hit the rernforcing bar in the door and I lost the last 3/8 inch of the knife, I was doing something stupid abusing the knife, of course there was damage

-Page
 
There are some knives MADE for chopping/splitting, so to say it's abuse is a sweeping generalization because THERE knives are NOT going to be able to withstand batoning/heavy chopping.

A baton, chop, throw my Busse combat knives with NO problems. Sometimes I even... *gasp* pry with them. These knives are designed for this kind of use. You can say "carry an axe, and a knife and another knife", or I can just carry one knife into the woods.

Now will you see my batoning with a typical bushcraft/scandi blade? not unless it was an emergency. I will use the right tool for the job, however sometimes when it comes to "batoning", a big fixed blade is the right tool. I'm not going to carry an axe, a froe, a scandi blade, a machete into the woods. When you guys camp do you bring pack mules?
 
230grains said:
There are some knives MADE for chopping/splitting, so to say it's abuse is a sweeping generalization because THERE >their sp< knives are NOT going to be able to withstand batoning/heavy chopping.
Click to expand...
I stand by my generalization

-Page
 
Alden Sherrodd said:
In my opinion the act of "batoning" a knife is an act of desperation. The person that does this to a knife should accept the outcome of this abuse as a product of their actions, not a judgement of the knife. I would no more do that to a knife than I would use a torque wrench for a hammer, as a matter of life or death I might, but then accept the consequences.
I never heard of abusing a knife like this intil the last several years, and think it is mostly done by journalists in vacant lots near their homes. An outdoorsman should have an axe for breaking down wood. Even the journalist outdoorsman "Nesmuck" had an axe and two knives to further delineate the tasks required of the edged tools.
If you must "baton" to save your life do it, but if you just want to imitate your favorite writer don't blame the manufacturer of the tool for the outcome of your entertainment.

~Alden
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you Alden. I never even heard of batoning until just a few yeas ago myself. Growing up we always used an axe or hatchet to split wood since that is what they are for. I guess I was just looking for a little reassurance that the knife itself (Spyderco Bushcraft) would be generally reliable for reasonable tasks. I like it so far but since it was my dollar that paid for it, I don't plan on doing anything extreme with it.....its just the sheath that sucks....
 
Alden Sherrodd said:
In my opinion the act of "batoning" a knife is an act of desperation. The person that does this to a knife should accept the outcome of this abuse as a product of their actions, not a judgement of the knife. I would no more do that to a knife than I would use a torque wrench for a hammer, as a matter of life or death I might, but then accept the consequences.
I never heard of abusing a knife like this intil the last several years, and think it is mostly done by journalists in vacant lots near their homes. An outdoorsman should have an axe for breaking down wood. Even the journalist outdoorsman "Nesmuck" had an axe and two knives to further delineate the tasks required of the edged tools.
If you must "baton" to save your life do it, but if you just want to imitate your favorite writer don't blame the manufacturer of the tool for the outcome of your entertainment.

~Alden
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you. A knife is a knife, not a "baton". If someone wants a knife that can be used for light axe-type duties and still be used as a knife, then they should look to something like the Hudson Bay Camp knife or some similar heavy duty knife. Hudson Bay Camp knives were especially designed to do both things....that's why I like em.
 
Eric Sloane's books are great ! Early tools are simple ,graceful and efficient !
I can only remember batoning once in my life and that only to get a very needed fire started in the winter Adirondacks !
 
I use a knife and a hammer to split the rib cage on deer all the time. I just don't use a thin skinner for that. But I do use an actual hammer, not a nice soft piece of wood. I guess I'm going to knife hell...

Here is a nice knife abuse photo I'm fond of:

knife_abuse.jpg


heh heh. Yup, I going to knife hell. I wonder if Cliff will be there, I've never met him...
 
Many survival schools advocate batoning as a skill. Many makers on these forums state openly that their knives are designed to take batoning and they recognize it as a legitimate activity. For the closed minded folks out there, please remember that the world is bigger than your set of experiences. Batoning is not anything new under the sun and knives are general tools. Besides, I never could get a Froe sheath with a firesteel loop on it ;)

Many knives, even simple stick tang moras, suffer batoning well without damage. Of course, batoning isn't the same everytime. Part of the user error may not be the simple choice to baton at all, but rather not knowing when to stop the activity.

Nathan, thank you for your input on the design features.
 
I wish someone would post a picture of the Spyderco that broke while batoning that was recently in the WSS forum.I don't know how.

Regardless of what you think of batoning in general I think that particular blade broke from poor design and heat treat.
 
R.H.Clark said:
I wish someone would post a picture of the Spyderco that broke while batoning that was recently in the WSS forum.I don't know how.

Regardless of what you think of batoning in general I think that particular blade broke from poor design and heat treat.
Click to expand...


Clark, this is the best pics I could find from someone's bad experience. You can get a pretty good idea what the tang is like in the third picture.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724977

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks schmittie.

There is more metal on each side of the hole than I thought.Still it looks to have broke with no bend at all.I'm no expert but I think the tang was way too hard unless there was some sort of flaw in the steel it'self.
 
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