Brief review Kershaw Cyclone Ti/ZDP

gull_wing! Welcome to Bl.... oh.... :)

I like the fact that the coating is still on... that's probably
one of my biggest reasons for not picking this knife up (the coating)....
I like my knives nice and shiny.... unless it's my Becker CU/7.
 
rottwang said:
Well I thought ZDP was very brittle? Isn't making a brittle substance very thin a recipe for disaster?
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I agree with Thom on all of the points he made about the benefits of a thin edge and the disadvantages of a thick edge. As a guy who has used 2 Krein ground ZDP knives with .005" edges I can tell you ZDP being thin isn't a disaster, it is a recipe for extreme cutting performance. Now, putting Krein grinds aside, Spyderco does offer ZDP knives with factory edge thicknesses in the .010"-.015" range, and I haven't heard many reports of them blowing out. Like Thom said, ZDP has better edge stability than S30V and VG-10 because of it's high hardness, and it is real easy to repair any damage a thin edge takes. If you are using it to chop and baton brittleness may rear it's ugly head, but I don't think a sane person would choose ZDP 189 as their steel of choice for chopping and batoning anyway.

Mike
 
Hey guys ... quick question with your degree notation.

when you say .010" you mean 10 degrees, right?
 
gunmike1 said:
I agree with Thom on all of the points he made about the benefits of a thin edge and the disadvantages of a thick edge. As a guy who has used 2 Krein ground ZDP knives with .005" edges I can tell you ZDP being thin isn't a disaster, it is a recipe for extreme cutting performance. Now, putting Krein grinds aside, Spyderco does offer ZDP knives with factory edge thicknesses in the .010"-.015" range, and I haven't heard many reports of them blowing out. Like Thom said, ZDP has better edge stability than S30V and VG-10 because of it's high hardness, and it is real easy to repair any damage a thin edge takes. If you are using it to chop and baton brittleness may rear it's ugly head, but I don't think a sane person would choose ZDP 189 as their steel of choice for chopping and batoning anyway.

Mike
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Everything said is true to an extent.

1. It would be great to offer a thinner grind, but as previously stated, will increase both rejected blades at the factory, and warranty issues.

2. Spyderco is grinding the ZDP in Japan, and Kershaw is doing it in the US. There is a huge difference. Some Moki and Sekai personnel have been grinding the Spyderco blade shapes for over 20 years, Kershaw personnel have been grinding some of these shapes for 6 months or less. In this case, the additional amount of time leads to increased confidence in production, and lower rejection rates. They also have their secondary bevels and finish grinding going on over in Seki, BUT....it is hard to get new work in the pipeline in a quick manner.

3. "If you are using it to chop and baton brittleness may rear it's ugly head, but I don't think a sane person would choose ZDP 189 as their steel of choice for chopping". GunMike, what you would consider insane, your average man on the street would consider normal. How about trying to adjust Torx screws with a phillips bit? How about trying to pry paint cans open with swiss army knife blades? I have personally seen the results of these types of things. Please don't give the average consumer more credit than they deserve.

It is those kinds of issues that Kershaw, Spyderco, Buck and others must consider when pricing knives, and bringing them to market, with attempt at profitability.

I used to work at Buck Knives, for a short period, and was told by my manager(who would know these things) that Buck barely broke even on every model 110 sold. It was the other knives, like the ones with the plastic handles, that kept the lights on.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
msiley said:
Hey guys ... quick question with your degree notation.

when you say .010" you mean 10 degrees, right?
Click to expand...

They mean the thickness of the edge is .010 of an inch, they are not talking about sharpening degrees.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999,

How many folks doing those sorts of non-knife things are buying knives with ZDP blade and ti handles? I'd buy that thick-edge argument if we were talking about a $30 Storm, but not for ti-handled framelock with any steel.
 
To contribute something positive as well: My current edc:


This is really, really nice knife and quite frankly, for me personally most certainly a Sebbie killer, but for me the Sebbie never held that much appeal (even though I recognize the quality). The "AO switch" is the coolest thing since sliced bread!

Well, what can I say, I measured mine and it is about 0.020" behind the edge, except for close to the choil were it is a bit less. All in all though, very evenly ground, even when measured with a caliper. That is pretty much par for a non custom I would say. Even the Spydies that I have don't go much below that, with the one exception of the Caly ZDP. But designwise I would see the Caly more of a slicer and the Cyc more of a workhorse, so it is reasonable. It still means that I am going to thin it out, but I can't really complain about the way it comes from the factory. The whole "optimal edge" from the factory seems a bit much to ask. I doubt your average Toyota will come with "optimal intake/exhaust setup" either for maxium efficiency or power. That is for the tinkerers. What would there be left to do for us? Life would be boring :D! The edge came very sharp on mine, much better than my Spec Bump, but the edge angle is a disappointing 22 deg per side. I say this with no ill will, but I would like to see Kershaw to work on that a bit. For me that is no biggy, but for someone unexperience with nothing but a Sharpmaker it might.

Again for me, personally, the handle is just a tad to small. In a normal grip it is a 3.5 finger knife and the curve of the back doesn't quite fit my hand right. But I have large hands (not XL but pretty large) and they can not fit everybody. But for this reason I would really like to see the exact same piece done as full sized Cyclone. The upside is that it has (like many Kershaws I have see) a very large blade to handle ratio. Longer edge length than either Delica, Caly, or Lil'T.

Lastly and this is again I hope some positive critique: Personally, I wouldn't mind the cutout on the lockbar to be a bit thicker and the stop pin a bit meatier as well. Probably again personal preferences.

Bottom line, this is a mind-blowing piece for the price and the I think the Sebenza is invoked for a reason.

Rock-on, Kershaw :thumbup:
 
thombrogan said:
Kohai999,

How many folks doing those sorts of non-knife things are buying knives with ZDP blade and ti handles? I'd buy that thick-edge argument if we were talking about a $30 Storm, but not for ti-handled framelock with any steel.
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Fair amount of people out there thrashing on the Sebenza, because they heard that it was "indestructible".

You and I both know that is not the case, but neither of us know what is in the head of every ELU out there. That is the position that a production factory has to try and hash out before the knives go out the door.

Thom, you do the best that you can when creating production knives, and hope that due diligence has been helpful. You CANNOT control what happens to your knives once they leave the factory.

In addition, you are ignoring half of my statement, which is that there are more rejects to the blades the thinner you grind them. A balanced compromise has to be reached in all cases between marketing, production and the executives that pay for it all.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
you are ignoring half of my statement, which is that there are more rejects to the blades the thinner you grind them.
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On an item this high-end, wouldn't that be a reasonable risk? Or is it unreasonable because of the low price as compared to knives with comparable materials from William Henry and Spyderco?
 
thombrogan said:
On an item this high-end, wouldn't that be a reasonable risk? Or is it unreasonable because of the low price as compared to knives with comparable materials from William Henry and Spyderco?
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To be honest, Thom, am not sure if it is reasonable or not. Don't have intimate details concerning the capacity of the manufacturing personnel at Kershaw.

I do know that Thomas got some death threats and stinkeye from manufacturing personnel during the run of the Ti/ZDP Leek.

Also, see the Leek as more of a gent's folder than the Cyclone. They did, AFAIK, get the Leek dialed in eventually. I have one that is more than satisfactory.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Could the folders be made thinner in KAI's Japanese-based factories? Their Shun knives have the edges I wish folding pocketknives had. Even my Spyderco brand Caly3 folders needed their edges thinned down, but not my Shuns - they were bliss right out of the box.
 
thombrogan said:
Could the folders be made thinner in KAI's Japanese-based factories? Their Shun knives have the edges I wish folding pocketknives had. Even my Spyderco brand Caly3 folders needed their edges thinned down, but not my Shuns - they were bliss right out of the box.
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My thoughts are that they could, but also, that the Japan based factories 1) have too much on their plates as it is, and fitting it into the pipeline would be difficult at best, and 2) the Japanese factories are not likely to go into sprint/limited runs.

The best case scenario is that the US factory will step up to each challenge, and experienced personnel will stay onboard to help drive a higher standard. These last two questions are some that I hope ThomasW will chime in on, questions of this type are really in his domain.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
How much uniform thickness flat tang is hanging off the end of one of those Shun knives Thom? Enough to convert one to a folder maybe???

STR
 
I wouldn't do it. There's a lot of overhang; close to 5mm; on the paring knife from the edge overhanging the flat. All of the wafer-thin steel which would need to be eaten to make a kick (we are talking lockbacks, right? Or balisongs?) that it would involve an element of devil worship.

Kohai9999999,

I owe you a post.
 
Maybe they just sell better with a thicker blade grind. HoB’s reported .02 doesn’t sound like that is way out of line. With all of the, looking for a 3 blade pry bar posts compared to I want the bestest thinnest cutter posts, it doesn’t surprise me that factories run them too darn thick, for my taste. Heck even the Calypso was canceled do to sales as much as we liked it.
 
thombrogan said:
Could the folders be made thinner in KAI's Japanese-based factories? Their Shun knives have the edges I wish folding pocketknives had. Even my Spyderco brand Caly3 folders needed their edges thinned down, but not my Shuns - they were bliss right out of the box.
Click to expand...


I really need to hit the lottery and get a Shun since the edges are that thin. My hopelessly thick Caly Jr. ZDP needed Krein work to make it right (sarcasm alert, as I never even had the knife before Krein got it, as Sodak hooked me up and fronted it to me). I have seen some stock Caly Jr. ZDP's though and still would have thinned it out anyway, whether through D8XX or Krein, as it was still thicker than I like, even if it is about as thin as you get in affordable production folders. To get a folder that I felt absolutely no need to thin out would definately be a treat, and save my arms, stones, wallet and mind a lot of hassle. With all of the advances in technology you would think that isn't too much to ask, but I am far from an expert, and maybe I'm being a little utopian. But if it can be done on kitchen knives it should be easy enough to do on folders. Keep building folding prybars for that market, but I think there is enough of a market for more cutting oriented gents type folders with thin edges. As it stands the first thing I think when I look at a pocket knife is how much time and trouble it will be to thin it out to a true cutting profile to bring out the performance in it, and how I really need to invest in a belt sander.

Mike
 
Thom. What I was thinking was a compression type lock. Sal invited me to obtain the license recently and I need an excuse to start making them for when I go for it. But if not that it would almost certainly have to be a lockback. Regardless of whether it can be done or not I ordered a Shun Classic Bird Beak tonight.

Speaking of thin though, my thoughts are that in this day and age tactical knives and defensive/survival type knives in folders and fixed blades are the bigger more profitable thing going even though thin is in for some. I mean even knives the makers say are 'not designed to be tactical' look tactical to me. I must admit in my own mind regardless of how stable or capable the steel may be when thin I just don't feel that in conditions like those any real outdoorsy type individuals like myself will run into in the field that thin is going to really be all that great. As an example, I gave my son a thin bladed knife (440C .010 hollow grind) and it lasted about 30 days before I got it back with a big chunk missing right out of the middle of it asking me if I could make a new blade for it.

In city life or leisure times its probably fine to have a .005 thin blade but just batoning a blade that thin through some small logs to make kindling would probably be about all it could endure. I know for a fact that the knives Kershaw has sent me for testing can do that. I've done it with them. I'm not saying that they could not be thinner. My Storm II at .017 or there abouts proves it can be a bit thinner so sure they could be but in my mind you have to look at the masses. I think Kershaw does that before marketing a knife to the public.

We are talking about a knife company that makes a whole lot of knives in any given month. I think these folks have a better idea of what will not only work in the hands of the masses but what will be likely to hold up also. I would even go so far as to say that they have a better idea than small niche groups or individuals regardless of how qualified or how expert they may or may not be or regardless of how much they think they know about cutlery steels in general but above this I think they know first and foremost how they need to do things to remain profitable. I'm sure that is the first and formost concern of any manufacturer.

When time is money and money is time you have so many blades you need to make each day, so many knives assembled each day and so much time designated with each one to meet your expected production quota each day. Thinner means more time on each blade which would reduce the number actually finished in any given day I'm sure.

On a final note when I stop to look at the blades I've seen being reground, blades that are already pretty 'thin' I might add, that have been modified in recent months by Tom Krein and others to end up being even thinner geometries than they already were from the manufacturer it becomes very apparent to me that no matter how thin Kershaw made these blades it still wouldn't be thin enough to stop certain follks from shouting from the rooftops that they were doing it all wrong regardless of whether it was ZDP189, S30V or 13C26.

STR
 
STR's post is outstanding and his comprehension of volume manufacturing also seems quite solid.

If you all want a sexy hollow grind (everyone shake their head yes)(sexy sells btw) on these high end Kershaw boutique pieces, one of the simple truth's is that we don't have the fixtures built to make them thin like the handful of you here desire.
Now the fixtures are not all that expensive dollar wise, but they do take time, and time is hard to find when you are working volume.
I'm not saying it will always be like this, but today, there are just not the resources to put skilled personnel in making a fixture for a 750 piece run when there is real money to make. There, a cold hard truth.

Now it would not be accurate to say that we don't understand the performance behind the anorexic geometry you all are speaking of, I would like to make that clear. I really feel in the future we will offer you a knife that brings a satisfying smile to your pretty little faces.

On the flip side, we have 50 gallon drums back in warranty that gets filled up quickly, mostly from returns that would turn your stomach. If you could see what we get back using the geometry we currently at, to go thinner.....well it does make us a bit apprehensive. We must take into account those crazy (term of endearment), real world, non BF posting customers you know (emphasize on crazy here).

If it would be better for us not to do these boutique runs because we can't maximize the geometry in your eyes, and you are holding off purchasing them because of that, now is the time to let us know that. We find these types of short runs to be challenging, and it pushes us as a manufacturer. We are also trusting that you all want us to continue, but please, give a shout out on this.

For additional 2007 runs we have invested into some SG2 clad, CPM-D2, S90V, more ZDP (and others), so we are ready if you are.

Damn, now I'm late for work.
 
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