Brief review Kershaw Cyclone Ti/ZDP

msiley said:
I just ordered a regular Mini-Cyclone. If I like
the ergos I'll be picking up the ZDP when I get my tax refund.
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Unless your hands are really on the large to xl side, you will like the ergos. short of the Camillus Heat, and the Groove/RJ Martin Havoc, this knife has some of the most comfortable and secure ergos that I have ever seen on a factory folder.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I'm not all that crazy about sprint runs. Mostly I think they just feed the urge some have to hoard and collect limited-run knives that will, ironically, never see a stone, or be used to cut anything more challenging than a bit of twine or a little paper.
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DoW, with that said, do these type of knives just need to spec out handsomely on paper and look Victoria Secret like for an image?

Is geometry a mere afterthought with these type buyers and an added bonus with regards to these super model's?
 
I've been following this thread intently, and I would like to say some things, particularly to Thomas.

First off, thank you for your reply to my earlier question, Kohai.

I understand, and appreciate your explanation and insight to how things really work during these runs for Kershaw, Thomas, and I thank you for taking the time to explain them to us.

I happen to disagree with some that every folder should be thinned out and optimized to some insanely performing slicer. There are knives that should be, but I don't think the Cyclone in question here should be one of them.

I do, however, feel that the edge is too thick, and that I would probably be a bit disappointed with the cutting performance out of box. It could certainly be thinned out a bit, however, no need to break the machines and slow the manufacturing process by going too far with it. I'm sure there is a middle ground that could be comfortably reached.

That being said, it was certainly not the huge issue it was made to be in this thread, and there was no reason for it to cause so much grief. Just a valid question worth answering, no more, no less.

On to the role these high end sprint runs play in the market and to the consumer:

I can only speak for myself, here, but if I like the design, I will pay more to get the premium materials for it, and I will use it. I have a $500 Battle Mistress sitting next to me that I take out almost daily and use harder than any tool I own. I paid that much for it because I wanted to be reliable and worth my money in use, not in some sort of collection. I use every single knife I own. There are people like me that pay more for performance and to know they are using the best. I'm not sure how large or significant ELUs like me are, but I would very much appreciate being remembered when Kershaw is pumping out their high end runs.

Thanks.
 
Thomas W said:
DoW said:
I'm not all that crazy about sprint runs. Mostly I think they just feed the urge some have to hoard and collect limited-run knives that will, ironically, never see a stone, or be used to cut anything more challenging than a bit of twine or a little paper.
Click to expand...
DoW, with that said, do these type of knives just need to spec out handsomely on paper and look Victoria Secret like for an image?

Is geometry a mere afterthought with these type buyers and an added bonus with regards to these super model's?
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Based on what I've seen on the trade and sale boards,Thomas, I really do believe that a large percentage of high-end, limited-run production models get snarfed up for exactly those reasons. And I don't mean to sound like I'm knocking that: just isn't my thing, and I have a funny feeling about tools that are kind of like the Victoria's Secret models on the runway, that you can look at but never really touch. ;)

To me it's kind of a paradox: part of the value lies in the use of high quality materials in manufacture, but since it's being bought as a potential collector piece with hopes of appreciation, it needs to remain pristine ... hence its performance never gets used or even tested by a large percentage of those buying the knives. In some cases I would bet a whole run of knives could be sold with dead soft blades and edges about like cold chisels, with only a very low return rate; certainly a far lower return rate than you'd see with working knives like Leeks, JYDs, etc.

Now as a guy who doesn't buy knives just so the safe will have plenty of ballast, maybe this really doesn't affect me that much -- although actually it does, because sometimes I'll see a limited run piece I'm interested in, and so often they sell out before I can even enter my credit card's expiration date. But reading what you've posted, maybe it does affect me indirectly by being a low margin item that's taking up time, labor, capital and other resources that Kershaw could be using otherwise ... ???

Maybe I'm a shameless capitalist, but hearing the gory details about these limited run knives from Kershaw's point of view, I'd say you ought to raise your prices on them. Some of them sure seem to sell fast, so I'd say maybe they're priced too low. Or maybe consider something like I suggested above, sort of a semi-production, semi-custom collaboration which I think both collectors and avowed darksiders might really like. :)

Don't know if any of that makes any sense. But again this is interesting to know ... I honestly would have thought these were high margin products for Kershaw, and knowing now that they aren't really puts things in a different light, IMO.

And yes, this is the kind of discussion I come here to enjoy.
 
STR said:
Speaking of thin though, my thoughts are that in this day and age tactical knives and defensive/survival type knives in folders and fixed blades are the bigger more profitable thing going even though thin is in for some. I mean even knives the makers say are 'not designed to be tactical' look tactical to me. I must admit in my own mind regardless of how stable or capable the steel may be when thin I just don't feel that in conditions like those any real outdoorsy type individuals like myself will run into in the field that thin is going to really be all that great. As an example, I gave my son a thin bladed knife (440C .010 hollow grind) and it lasted about 30 days before I got it back with a big chunk missing right out of the middle of it asking me if I could make a new blade for it.
STR
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I think Thom responded to this the best in regards to using different steels and types of grinds/geometries to match the task at hand (a drum Cliff has been beating for a long time). After seeing Jimmy Fikes video my eyes were opened on just how tough thin edges can be on the right steel. Either way, there is definately a market for thick edged folders, as plenty of people buy them and they are easier to manufacture, as Thomas laid out. Some of us just wish there were more thin, harder steeled, cutting oriented folders on the market. In the meanwhile we use our XX coarse stones, sanders, and Krein to modify our folders to our liking.


STR said:
On a final note when I stop to look at the blades I've seen being reground, blades that are already pretty 'thin' I might add, that have been modified in recent months by Tom Krein and others to end up being even thinner geometries than they already were from the manufacturer it becomes very apparent to me that no matter how thin Kershaw made these blades it still wouldn't be thin enough to stop certain follks from shouting from the rooftops that they were doing it all wrong regardless of whether it was ZDP189, S30V or 13C26.

STR
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STR, putting production issues aside, I have a few of these Krein regrinds you are speaking of, on knives that you may consider bordering on too thin to start with. When you consider that most are very light folders that disappear in your pocket, not to mention that will cut cardboard, rope, & packages with ease with tremendous edge retention and very little effort, you start to see the benefits of them. By the time my Manix is choking on itself and tearing cardboard my Krein Caly Jr. or Cliff's U2 is just getting started. Like Thom mentioned it takes little time to resharpen and/or repair any minor damage you may take on those thin edges. Since they are so light they are only 1/2 to 1/3 of the knives I carry on me at one time, but they take care of the vast majority of the cutting tasks I run into. I always have my big, bad Manix and usually another knife on me for heavier tasks, so having to baton or pry with the ultrathin knives isn't an issue, and I definately wouldn't recommend it. I think when you look at those knives from a perspective of carrying more than just the tiny one they will make more sense to you. However, if you don't have the extra pocket space or the extra 2 ozs. bother you then I can see you arguing against them. If you want to play with a Krein Caly Jr. let me know and I'll ship it to you. I think you'll find it quite satisfactory for for light duty cutting like rope and cardboard.

Mike
 
OK, I just came back from the Edge Pro bench. First impression... wow, this is hard steel. Not that this came as a surprise, but this was still a two hour sharpening job. gull wing, thank you very much for the tip about how to remove the thumb stud, that was extremely helpful. :thumbup: I'm probably just going to leave it out, I use the flipper anyway and besides I like the way the hole looks.

I took it down to somewhere between 15 and 18 degrees per side. Let's call it 16 for simplicity's sake. Maintaining a steady rest on the Edge Pro table was a little difficult, it's a lot easier with a less complex flat grind. No big deal, I just need to get back in the habit is all. I polished it out to 600 grit, Extra Fine with the Edge Pro stones. Now all I can say is HO-LY S&^T. This sucker is SHARP. REAL sharp. It takes a much much finer edge than the S30V blades on my ParaMilitary or Sebenza. I've gotten softer blades this sharp, but to get one like this with 64 Rc blade is a new experience. It falls through paper and shaves leg hair with little pressure. Daddy like. :D

I'm going to leave it like this for a little while and see how it holds up. If the edge seems to be tough enough I may lower it a few more degrees and polish it up a bit more to see what happens. So far I am a very very happy camper with this knife. For $150 this thing kicks the crap out of a Sebenza in the edge department. Time will tell about it's durability. If the quality of my other Kershaw's is any indication that should be very good.
 
But reading what you've posted, maybe it does affect me indirectly by being a low margin item that's taking up time, labor, capital and other resources that Kershaw could be using otherwise ... ???
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DoW, I guarandamtee that you and all the other Kershaw buyers are indirectly being affected by these fun run's.

We have customers complaining about delivery with JYD's and Groove's (we have zero on the shelves right now btw :eek: ), but we had to finish up both this Cyclone and the..............other one..............that I can't talk about...............right now.

I gotta go get some real work done now. I'll be back later.
 
Thomas W said:
...but we had to finish up both this Cyclone and the..............other one..............that I can't talk about...............right now.

I gotta go get some real work done now. I'll be back later.
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You better come back with some more info after dropping a bomb like that! :p After seeing this Cyclone and the JYD II, now I want to know about this "other one". Does it need to go in my collection too?
 
I think that the extreme angle love by some might be a bit excessive, and that Kershaw could worry about them chipping out right away, but 22 deg, 44 inclusive is Strider thick edges. I would love Spyderco thickness, or at least 20-40. Then all the folks who have a sharpmaker wouldn't have to reprofile it at least.
 
Sorry to get in on this one late guys!

Thanks for all the kind words!

I honestly don't know if I can regrind the Cyclone, due to the placement of the thumb stud, it is directly over the grind. I might be able to do it, but couldn't make any guarantees.

The thin blades really are a pleasure to cut with!

Tom
 
Tom, it's not hard at all to take out the thumbstud using the method gull wing described. I couldn't have sharpened my Cyclone on the Edge Pro with the stud in or I would have ground off half the stud.
 
I have one more little piece of critique that I forgot early:"Please think of our southpaw friends!" Personally, I am right handed, but I think a left/right clip setup should be mandatory on knife in this day-n'-age.

It's not so trivial to do on the Cyclone, but I think there should be a way.

(That should give me some bownie points with Thom ;)! No, seriously, I know enough southpaws that it think a two way clip setup is really important.)
 
Don't know how I missed this thread! Very interesting stuff.

I agree that not all knives need to be thin little laser cutters. But I like my small light pocket knives that way. I like larger, but still smallish fixed blades, such as my Swamp Rat Bandicoot, to be simply thinned out. Yes, it takes longer to maintain, but I still get very good performance and retain most of the inherent strength of the blade.

If you want to see a before and after of a Caly 3 courtesy of Mr. Krein, feast your eyes:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q203/sodak_photos/p1010011-1.jpg

The original was no slouch, but getting the regrind is like adding nitrous oxide. You gotta try it once. I'm considering doing the same for my JYD, but still thinking on it.

You know you've got the fever for thin when the person at the knife store asks, "Do you want that shipped to your house, or to the Arkansas address?" :D This is probably the only crowd that will ever get that joke...
 
Ok you talked me into trying one. If Tom will do a ZDP189 Jess Horn for me like he did one of the other ZDP knives I'll go for it to see what all the fuss is about I'll give it a whirl with a Horn since I have two. Then I can compare them that way side by side.

What'd ya say Tom? Can I mail out a Jess Horn to you?

STR
 
Roadrunner,

You should try some aftermarket lapping film on the polishing tape blank. And adding a back-bevel somewhere between the 10-13 degree setting so that your 16/32 degree edge is an ethereal gleam at the end of the edge. TFWW sells 5 micron SiC, 1 micon AO, and 0.3 micron AO pressure-sensitive adhesive which can be cut into 1" x 6" strips for EdgePro polishing.

Remember seeing Dan's convex sharpening video before learning how to sharpen? Remember getting your first edge that'd replicate his khukuris and file-seaxes? It's like that. Foreigner's "Feels Like the First Time" will crank in your subconscious with a thin, highly polished ZDP-189 edge.

HoB,

After a little teasing from Thomas W, I've found that right-handed tip-down carry is very lefty friendly. On Kershaw knives with an option of right-handed tip-up and tip-down, they leave the factory set for right-handed tip-down and that's good enough for me. If this model was ZDP with a steel integral linerlock, I'd be all weepy, but titanium spares my feelings.
 
You know, I have read all the posts on this thread at least twice. A lot of I want this, and you should do this, etc.
Remember, we forum members are in reality a small part of the knife buying public. Any manufacturer has to build, as explained, to the public with all the headaches associated with that in (warranty problems and returns, political and legal ramifications), and they have to sustain a profit.
We are forgetting that we asked for this knife, I for one am ____ glad we got it. And I feel we should be very happy that we have people like Thomas W who listen to us. Future runs that we will be elated about in a large degree, but also nit-picky about in some degree seem to be on the horizon from Kershaw. And that is what I personally look forward to.
If I wanted a perfect knife in my eyes I know I would have to go to a custom maker and expect to pay a small fortune for. As I cannot do that, I am very happy, and think all we knifenuts should be happy with the fact that any company has a representative to these forums. And happy that that representative listens, and has the influence and wherewithal to have produced limited runs for us. Especially with the limits placed on him by production capabilities, and upper management.
That all being said, I think I am fortunate to have my ZDPTi Cyclone at such a affordable price.

Tom
Sorry about all the "I's"
 
Thomas W said:
DoW, with that said, do these type of knives just need to spec out handsomely on paper and look Victoria Secret like for an image?

Is geometry a mere afterthought with these type buyers and an added bonus with regards to these super model's?
Click to expand...

Thomas, I think that having sprint run knives spec out well on paper, but not deliver substance and quality, will get sales from the collector/speculators that might never notice what they aren't getting; the problem will be the sales you will inevitably get from the hard core knife enthusiasts that will know the difference. The collector/speculators will eventually hear the opinions of the enthusiasts (be it from the forums, the trade shows, or the local shop) and mind-share will be lost.

You and Kershaw don't strike me as the sort to do that type of thing to your customers anyway.

I think the sprint runs are sorta like the auto makers that sponsor in house racing teams and research, or tire manufacturers that make racing tires. The companies get to push the boundaries of technology, with the practical bits eventually making it to their production lines, and as a bonus they get extra mind-share from the publicity. The real difference here is that its not particularly practical for me to go on line and order a new Honda F-1 and the appropriate experimental racing tires. I CAN order (and probably afford) a limited run, totally leading edge, quality knife and hopefully Kershaw gets valuable marketing info as well as useful production info about new materials. With any luck I'll benefit again later when that info trickles down to the regular production knives.
 
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