Buck blade steel

[jbmonkey]

id rather see the old bg42 come back myself over d2...... or cts-xhp over d2.

 

[VorpalRain]

Buck switched from 440 because they wanted to fine blank their blades and could not do it with 440, that is why they made the first switch to 425 about 1982 (440 did not like to be cookie cut). Followed by the 425 to 420 about 1992 for cost savings that David mentioned. Note: FYI the steel change data and dates can be found in the Blades Guide.

JB

Correct. The 440C truly did not like to be cookie cut. It was just too hard and thus too hard on the equipment.

The 425M was not hard on the equipment (as David Martin said). Instead, it was just a matter of buying a less expensive off the shelf steel rather than a more expensive special order steel.

Easy business decision to sell more and better knives.

As far as the 420HC goes it's an excellent general purpose steel and with Buck's heat treat it's as good as anything on the market in the price range.

 

[MarfanTheMartian]

This guy is tripping me out. We are a family of Buck entnusiasts.

Welcome to the family.

What you're experiencing is called Brand Attachment. It's a pretty severe level of advertising manipulation and is completely illusory. The stuff you buy is not an extension of yourself and neither are you party of any "family" because you bought their stuff.

 

[me2]

Marfan can you give an example of what you call dull? Will it still cut topping paper, notebook paper, newspaper shave your arm? I'm very curious about your experience and would like to do some comparative testing with a "donated" Buck I have. Also, how do you sharpen your knives? This can have a large influence on edge retention and you may do it completely differently from me. Edge angle, grit, burr, alternating passes, etc.

 

[VorpalRain]

What you're experiencing is called Brand Attachment. It's a pretty severe level of advertising manipulation and is completely illusory. The stuff you buy is not an extension of yourself and neither are you party of any "family" because you bought their stuff.

LOL! So you're ok and we're all brainwashed? You are truly amusing.

The "advertising manipulation" of which you speak does not exist. I cannot remember the last time I saw a Buck advertisement......seriously. I just buy them because they work well and have for many years.

You probably have a bit of a problem with sharpening. There are tutorials available on the Internet.

Proper edge geometry for a particular job is quite essential.

 

[Kansaswoodguy]

Speaking of blade steel and Buck Knives - just got this one in the mail Saturday, a new 2014 built Buck 118 made of D-2 steel (thanks to David Martin for being my steel research resource on this one). Going hunting tomorrow, might just get to try it out. It came ready to skin and butcher a deer two - no touch up needed. OH

Nice Old Hunter

I've been eyeballing those for a while I need to get off the fence before there scarce and buy one.

 

[Old Hunter]

Thank you! It is very nicely made but I got no deer yesterday to try it out on. A small detail I noticed on this knife (and on my Buck 118 in 5160 steel) - neither has the 118 model number on the knife, only the Buck Anvil logo in it's place. There still seem to be plenty enough of them on the auction website to obtain new in the $70 range. OH

 

[MarfanTheMartian]

Marfan can you give an example of what you call dull? Will it still cut topping paper, notebook paper, newspaper shave your arm? I'm very curious about your experience and would like to do some comparative testing with a "donated" Buck I have. Also, how do you sharpen your knives? This can have a large influence on edge retention and you may do it completely differently from me. Edge angle, grit, burr, alternating passes, etc.

I measure dull as in how hard I have to push and if the blade cuts or tears through the material. If you're talking about whittling you can feel when the blade stops cutting and starts mashing/bullying through the material. Also, I look for plastic deformation along the apex by trying to reflect or "catch" light off it.

As for how I sharpen, I'm very proficient with bench stones. I also use a turnbox and that lansky clamping jig system. Occasionally I'll sharpen on the underside of a coffee mug if that's all that is available.

Edge angle: on these Bucks I use about 22-25 degree.
Grit: I usually finish at 600 or 1000

I use the burr method on bench stones, but not the gizmo systems. If I'm using a turnbox I'll microbevel typically.

I consider myself a proficient sharpener.

LOL! So you're ok and we're all brainwashed?

If my criticism of Buck elicits an emotional response, then yes, you are suffering under the illusion of brand attachment.

Also, there are more forms of advertising than your realize.

 

[VorpalRain]

Also, there are more forms of advertising than your realize.

Sure.......guess ah'm so dumb that I doesn't even see all them advertisings that is doing this advertising manipulation on me.......ah jus' feels lak I ain't seen none.

So......could you list them in detail please? For the good of the brain-damaged brainwashed?

 

[me2]

I measure dull as in how hard I have to push and if the blade cuts or tears through the material. If you're talking about whittling you can feel when the blade stops cutting and starts mashing/bullying through the material. Also, I look for plastic deformation along the apex by trying to reflect or "catch" light off it.

As for how I sharpen, I'm very proficient with bench stones. I also use a turnbox and that lansky clamping jig system. Occasionally I'll sharpen on the underside of a coffee mug if that's all that is available.

Edge angle: on these Bucks I use about 22-25 degree.
Grit: I usually finish at 600 or 1000

I use the burr method on bench stones, but not the gizmo systems. If I'm using a turnbox I'll microbevel typically.

I consider myself a proficient sharpener.




If my criticism of Buck elicits an emotional response, then yes, you are suffering under the illusion of brand attachment.

Also, there are more forms of advertising than your realize.

So when you typically resharpen, would the blade still slice typing paper before resharpening? How sharp are the knives after you've resharpened them? Will they shave hair off your arm? Can you fillet print/letters of a page of news paper?

 

[MarfanTheMartian]

So when you typically resharpen, would the blade still slice typing paper before resharpening? How sharp are the knives after you've resharpened them? Will they shave hair off your arm? Can you fillet print/letters of a page of news paper?

Never tried to slice paper before resharpening. I don't ever shave my arms. I do make sure I can cleanly slice, not tear, through news print all the way down the edge. And if I need an edge that can push cut, like a chisel, I'll refine it until it push cuts newsprint with ease.

 

[Frisky]

A quick comment on Buck's 420HC steel. I didn't buy Buck knives and just wasn't interested in them, until I got to looking at the Vanguard. It looked like a good knife for deer hunting, so I bought one in 2013. My main experience with the knife is in processing two deer, from field to freezer. The Vanguard came shaving sharp from the factory but not sharp enough for me. However, within 5 minutes, it was like a razor. I found the knife will gut and skin a deer without dulling. By the end of the boning process, it will shave hair but need a 1 to 2 minute steeling to return to razor sharp. Dulling does not slow me down at all. This fall, I bought a 110 folder. I used it during the trimming of one deer. This knife came shaving sharp but also required a few minutes on a steel to take it to a new level. I didn't use it that much, but it worked well and stayed like a razor. For me, the steel passed the deer test and I'd highly recommend both knives for use in deer hunting.

Joe

 

[David Martin]

Frisky, welcome to the Buck Forum. The final sharping on Buck knives are done by hand on a coarse stone. It looks to be something around 200 grit. This is no mistake on Bucks part. As a edge at that level can then be refined as the owner desires. Thus, your method of steeling this type of edge is a very good strategy and should produce the edge you mention in short order. Plus, that method saves metal at the edge and produces the edge you describe. Carry on. DM

 

[Frotier76]

Marfan,

If I may firsthand say I only purchase models by Buck Knives in their 420HC Stainless.Before I go further I will also say that quite a few people have tried to market the BOS Heat Treatment as if it transformed 420HC into the edge retention of almost being a premium grade steel (laughing)...no...not quite.I have a feeling you're an individual who listened to people spread the hype on thick and thus you had your experience in your usage factor with the 420HC Stainless.

Why do I have 'the bug' for Buck's 420HC?
Well some may disagree but I think Buck chose the accurate stainless for their hunting knives and as a common steel offering.It's edge properties are very good as it's as close you'll get to the edge definition of carbon steel.On top of that it's both very easy and quick to sharpen with just about anything abrasive, which makes it more desirable as a field knife.In edge retention it does well on cleaning game,cutting wood,vegetation...natural materials mostly.Cutting a rope to tie something down or slicing up a cardboard box to throw out...it doesn't dull.Heavy use in that fashion and doing it daily yes it will dull quicker than any stainless I've used.420HC isn't an industrial steel,it's a stainless for butchering and one who lives a rural individual's lifestyle.

The sooner people figure that out with 420HC, they'll come to a conclusion if the steel fits their usage factor or not.That may be a cold perspective but people act as if traditional steels are so awful.I don't recall any farmers back home in my younger days crying that their common steel bladed knives weren't holding a good enough edge in their daily use.I recall logical arguments of tool steel vs. stainless steel but the whole premium steel phase has just made people emotionally needy.They want 'the best' until something else new comes along to replace it almost like a version of windows OS or a fashion trend.If all I cut were coarse materials a premium steel would be the right choice...but my knife usage isn't that one-dimensional.Hate to hear you don't like the 420HC though.

 

[Frisky]

David- The factory grind on my Bucks did appear to be from a coarse stone, and it does sharpen to a beautiful (sticky) skinning edge in minutes.

I've come to the conclusion I can do just fine with Buck's 420HC, 1095 carbon steel, 12C27, VG10 and AUS8. I can put a wicked edge on CRKT's AUS6! All of them work on skinning and meat processing knives, and they all touch up quickly and easily. It doesn't matter if M390 holds an edge longer, as I can keep a Buck running right along with it, as so little time has to be spent in resharpening. Now, if I was doing deer after deer, maybe the M390 would begin to shine. However, I don't care what the steel is, I'm going to sharpen it, now and then, as I go anyway.

Joe

 

[Redhat]

While I have had issues with some recent Buck knives (slip joints) I purchased, they have never been about the quality of steel or an inability to reach and keep a satisfactory edge.

If getting a decent edge was really an on going problem with their knives, I think we'd hear a lot more about it around here.

 

[Stubai]

The older 440 was a bit of a drag to sharpen. I'll freely admit that back in the day, I was less adept at putting a good edge on my Buck blades. I also scuffed up a few nice knives in the process. Fast forward to current times and the situation is much different: there are nice, well thought out sharpening systems which allow even the novice to handle the vintage, hard-nosed Buck 440.

The new 425 formulation does seem to keep a decent edge and might be a tad thinner (and sharper) out of the box when contrasted with the 1970 era blades. Some of the dimensions on the vintage knives seem less uniform than today's offerings. There might be a bit more charm to the older ones!

Someone mentioned brand previously. I have seen quite a few current Buck ads and, rest assured, the company is highly aware of how great ads translate into mounds of sales, esp during the holiday season.

We, here in the US, are amazingly influenced by brands. Even as I was growing up, I started learning about Buck knives via advertising. There is a certain magic about the way the ads were constructed and they have been a massive tool in the success of Buck knives. The other part of the story is that this company simply makes good tools that the average man can justify.

Years from now, things will have changed even more. The ads will still be there and my trusty 119 will likely still have a place in my tackle box.

 

[me2]

I've been cutting cardboard with a 110 in 420HC and I'm up to about 85 to 100 feet. The edge was rebeveled at 17 dps, degrees per side. Then microbeveled at 20 DPS on the Sharpmaker medium rods. The edge will still shave my arm just barely with care and considerable pressure. It will slice magazine pages easily the whole length of the edge except a couple chips from its previous life. After the cardboard is done I'll try whittling.

 

[DocT]

The main reason the old 440C knives were so much more difficult to sharpen was the blade design. I think Buck also ran that steel pretty hard, too. But the blade design was the main culprit. The new style is much easier to sharpen and maintain, no matter the steel. The upside to the old blades were that they were bone cracking strong. The downside to the modern blades is that they are much thinner behind the edge and bone cracking can be done, but they are not as strong, in my opinion. Still, I much prefer the new style.

 

[Bugdoc]

I would agree with DocT. Even my old style Empress trio kitchen set is thick and heavy. Sharpening the 440c blades are a challenge. But boy do they come in handy when my paper - thin Japanese cutlery isn't up to the task.