Buck Knives: edge retention test

I think I found Joe Talmadge's article. Try this...

http://www.knifeart.com/sharfaqbyjoe.html

... which also doesn't support your position, as he states "...(600 grit) stone. I find this to be a pretty useful finishing stone, leaving enough micro-serrations for general utility work but still being hair-shaving sharp." According to your "test", a 600g finish won't even cut.

But that's not the point. The point is what I stated earlier. While your test may provide one very tiny tiny piece of the sharpening pie, it's not much, and you certainly can't draw the conclusions that you did from it.

If all you "heard" was that I can sharpen better than a meat cutter, you obviously missed the mark. My sharpening abilities aren't even an issue, and the video was just a humorous way of saying, don't take it at face value.

coyote711, you're right on the point. You've found a system that works for you and what you cut. That's the way it should be. But, (just to emphasize what I was trying to say), if you posted "the way to sharpen a knife is to find a 30 year old unknown stone.... etc., and that will satisfy 99% of your needs", and not only that, but your supporting facts don't even support it, would be way off the mark.

coyote711, I just saw your additional post. You're right, that was bad phrasing, and unfortunately distracts from the point. Like I said it was just a bit of an attempt at humor because I had just recently run across the video, and DM stated something about meat cutters. My bad, it was just an attempted joke, poor phrasing, and I'm sure that most meat cutters do have a lot of knowledge about sharpening.

cbw
 
now this is one fascinating thread. We use the CATRA machine for our scientific testing and real life for all other tests. My own testing is more intuitive. I have brought home fillet knives with factory shaving edge and then resharpened them on a coarse diamond stone. (off top of my head not sure what grit size is). We sell fine, med and coarse and all I use by hand is the coarse.

The fillet knives with coarse grit edge lasted far longer (per the wife's demand I resharpen).

I also agree with those who carve that their edge needs are totally different then kitchen or field game prep.

Really interesting thread though. Love these.
 
cbwx34 said:
coyote711, I just saw your additional post. You're right, that was bad phrasing, and unfortunately distracts from the point. Like I said it was just a bit of an attempt at humor because I had just recently run across the video, and DM stated something about meat cutters. My bad, it was just an attempted joke, poor phrasing, and I'm sure that most meat cutters do have a lot of knowledge about sharpening.

cbw
Click to expand...

No problem - I totally understand. Also, I spoke too strongly when I said "... you lost all credibility", when what I should have said was that you lost some credibility.

I have no doubt that you, David Martin, and 90% of a random sampling of people on this forum could out-sharpen me, and have waaaay more sharpening knowledge. And I'm fine with that. I think sometimes, some people (especially in the Maint. sub-forum ;)), get a little too carried away with their mirror polished edges, etc. That may sound like I'm slamming them, but I most assuredly am not. I just think it becomes a little obsessive at times, and question its practicality . I think as a hobby, or taken as a personal challenge to see how nice a finish you can put on a blade ..... well, that's cool. It's just not my cup of tea. Have I ever had a nice mirror polished blade? No - so what do I know! :rolleyes:

But, I know that's not your main point. Your "beef" comes down to the scientific validity of the tests in question. I can't address that. I think you have to stand back and look at the the sub-forum in which it was posted - the Buck sub-forum. I don't know that David intended this test to meet rigorous scientific standards ..... I took it as passing along the results of an experiment he conducted. I think the Buck sub-forumites are smart enough to take any findings, from anyone, and apply them judiciously to their own, real world situation.

Just my $.02 ..... not tryin' to start a p*$$ing match, but something for you to consider.
 
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cb, Yes thats the article . I think you should go back and re-read the 2 par. under ** Important Tips ** . Mr. Talmadge wrote the article but Mike Swaim conducted the test .
Which does confirm my exact findings . Hope this helps . DM
 
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Coyote, Yes thats all my test was and I thought I'd put forth the findings here for learning and scrutiny . No, worries Mate I know what takes place in other forums . However, it does have strong validation in the evidence of the test as many more knowledgable than myself have verified . Thanks . DM
 
I noticed the same thing the first time I went too fine (1000grit) on some VG10, wouldn't cut paracord for crap.....felt really sharp, looked great, cut meat like crazy, but pretty much useless for fabric which is pretty much what I cut with my folders.
Took it down to 600 grit and it cut paracord much better....400, better still.
So far I'm happy with a 20 degree edge, finished to 400 grit. I'll keep playing around with angles and grit, but this seems to be working well for me on fabrics.
 
Its you guys I should thank for not slamming me at every other post . Instead you weigh out the evidence . DM
 
coyote711, Thanks for the advice, I think I'll take it. And thanks again for giving me the chance to clear up an obviously inappropriately phrased statement, even if it was said in jest.

David, I read the section, and I agree that it supports your position if your position was simply - in certain situations a coarse edge cuts better. 'Cause that's pretty much what it says, and I'd agree with that. I just can't believe that you don't see that your "99%" conclusion is flawed, and that Juranitch supports it at all. Everything in his book says otherwise. You're right though, people can decide for themselves.

cbw
 
David M. I use a Wicked Edge sharpener and I now stop with the medium course stone which is 200. I used to go all the way to a 1000 stone then leather strop so I could see my face on the edge, but although it looked good, in extended use it was poor. I found over time that stopping at the 200 stone produced the best results.

Knives I use are Busse, Swamp Rat, ESEE, Spyderco, Gerber and Buck, and mix of steels. I go back to the 200 stone every time.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

BP
 
Thanks David for the great job.:thumbup:
The results of such the tests were always interesting to me.
 
Buck_110 said:
A coarse edge will cut better in almost all situations; except shaving, fish skinning, and dozens of other uses. A polished edge will outperform a coarse edge only in push cutting. and a coarse edge will only outperform a fine edge in sawing.



Published materials are not always correct. You're merely parroting the statements of others, and not furnishing YOUR own data to back any claims you're making. In the course of this thread, David Martin has shown that he feels published materials are a higher authority, so the use of them is acceptable. David Martin's tests may not be up to snuff in the world of white lab coats, but he has provided real-world data. You have only provided quotes.
Click to expand...

See red in quote above.

I provided real world data, which is conveniently ignored. If it would help, I could show pics and add anecdotes about the 250lbs of fish I filleted last month with a filet knife I take to 1200g and then strop, which would be more real life data on the merits of a sharp blade.

The issue isn't whether a coarsely sharpened blade has merit, but whether it is a given that a finely sharpened edge does not.

ETA, the entire argument is really quite simple if one doesn't take it to extremes at either end of the spectrum, as with most things, the balance tends to lie somewhere in the middle.
 
Great thread!

I don't have a whit of semi-scientific information or data to draw on, and I gave up reading knife magazines many years ago. All I have to really go on is 50 plus years of using knives for all manor of things.

When I was younger and obsessed over the hair whittling edge, I used all the fine and ultra fine stuff. Now as an older retired gentleman of leasure, I don't feel like spending a lot of time on my sharpening, so I went back to just giving it a quick touch up on my old carborundum stone. This gives me a course toothy edge that cuts through fish, plastic bags of mulch, jute twine, and all manor of food stuff. It also seems like I don't need to sharpen near as much as I used to. For me, a social security retirie that goes fishing a lot more now, and spending more time at the shooting range to include skeet and sporting clays (that means reloading the clay bird machines,) I'm using my pocket knife a lot more than ever before. Reloading the skeet machines, I have to cut open the boxes of White Flyers, and break down said boxes for the recycle bin at our gun club. THe cardboard is covered with clay dust from the birds broken in shipment, and is very hard on a knife blade. The course edge I get from the old carborundum stone seems to hold up better than anything else I have used.

Like I said, I have no scientific data, but I wonder if all the extra fine sharpening stuff on the market, not to mention all the gizmos, are for the task of getting more money out of the knife knuts wallet and into the manufactures wallets.

It's a funny thing, when I was a young boy scout so many years ago, we just used our 'official' boy scout pocket sharpening stone for everything that needed a shapening, and we got by just fine. Our knives and hatchets were always sharp, and those little 3 inch long by 1 1/2 wide grey carborunum stones with the Ófficial'scout logo embossed in the leather pocket sheath gave us a course but very sharp blade that lasted a good while.

Sometimes, if we live long enough, we find out that going back to the begining, we find out how well off we were in our ignorance.

These days all I use is the old grey stone. I find myself using and enjoying my knives more, and spending a lot less time sharpening them.
 
Ok, so while my posts were never as much about the coarse vs. fine debate, since that's all some of you saw, I decided to add it in.

I purchased a 100' of 1/4" sisal rope and went to work. I duplicated how David did his testing, one end fixed, holding the other end, and cutting the rope, etc. I've never done testing like this, so I didn't know what to expect. I know that fine edges work better for me in general use, but what about at this task?

The knife was sharpened on waterstones to a 10K (10,000) finish. I actually sharpened this knife several weeks ago, so it wasn't sharpened specifically for this test. It's how I had it, and how I would carry it. Not a knife with a high end or specialty steel either.

The results of this test actually amazed me. Like I said I had no idea what to expect. And I had the mental debate going... "If it quits at 10 cuts, am I going to say anything?" (Ok, probably not.)

Well, here you go.

P1020392a.jpg


That is 400 cuts, and I quit. The knife would have kept going. The piece of rope on top of the handle is the last two cuts.

After the 400 cuts, the knife will still cleanly slice thru paper heel to tip, cut a packing foam (both in the picture), and it will still shave arm hair. It's not in the picture, but I also made some clean slices thru notebook paper. I have no issues putting this knife back in my pocket, and continuing to use it "as is". (The stone in the photo is the finish stone that was used).

Now, this is just one test, so you can draw your own conclusions. My biggest conclusion is, what a pain in the a$$ this was. :) But for me, what a learning experience, even if it was just one test. Frankly, I didn't know what to expect. I've worked on a few ideas of why fine edges 'fail' (discussed below), but hadn't tested them in this manner.

BTW, this is also not a knife sharpening that I spent hours on getting it to this level. I believe that part of sharpening is getting it done in a reasonable amount of time. This, combined with the fact that in general I've found these edges to last longer, and easier to touch back up, means overall I spend less time sharpening.

I think alot of times, people that find a coarse edge better, or that a fine edge fails or doesn't cut at all, is because it was improperly sharpened. For me, one of the biggest points is that a fine edge doesn't equal a smooth or rounded edge. It will still have "bite" and will penetrate to cut. But it's at a very refined level. You also have to insure that you don't leave a burr or wire edge... which is easier to do at this level.

I'm not going to dwell much on the "coarse vs. fine" debate; it is what it is, and you can decide for yourself. Ultimately I know that it's your knife... sharpen and use it how you see fit. And the same rule about 'testing' applies to me... I'm not about to go around hanging my hat on this one test as the definitive answer. In fact, it probably applies little beyond this thread. Some of you wanted data... so here's another tiny little piece of the pie. I'm kinda like jacknife... I know how they work for me, I know how they work for others I've sharpened for, so that is what I use.

Now, I know what some of you are going to say. "But wait, that's a different type of knife, different this, different that". Yea, I know... and that was kinda my point to begin with.

Thanks for your time. I'll now return you to your regular progamming.

cbw
 
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