Buck using Sandvik?

Those knives are very much like the Vanguard 192, the 103 and Josh's new skinner which I forget the model #. I see no real advantage here in shape.DM
 
Razorsharp244 said:
The whole point of making powder steels which is very expensive is to decrease carbide size so yes, you are right. But they still are large in our world.
Maximum carbide size diameter for:
1. Coarse grades like D2, 440C, ATS34 etc = 40-50 microns (0.0018")
2. High alloy PM steels like CPM 154 CM = 7-10 microns (0.00032")
3. Fine carbide steels like 13C26 and 12C27M = 2 microns (0.00008")

We define a sharp edge as haveing a radius of maximum 1 micron. So that is where our requirement comes from. Any carbide larger than 2 microns in diameter will make the steel more difficult sharpen to a high sharpness level.

Regards
//Jerker
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In an earlier post you put your steel at 2 microns= .oooo4" . So, which is it?
Does'nt matter, its still small.DM
 
Razorsharp244 said:
Does S30v with 4% Vanadium have better edge retention than ZDP189 which is a pure Carbon-Chrome steel? I believe carbide density is more important than carbide composition, but i'm not sure. Vanadium carbides are harder than chromium carbides but I believe that the carbides mainly tears out, not wears down. Not sure though.

Regards
//Jerker
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Yes, ZDP189 probably has the highest of both for any steel. But Japan is very secretive concerning its formula. Those last 2 pts. are certainly for advanced/graduate study.As I don't know any who are sure on that one.DM
 
Razorsharp244 said:
Does S30v with 4% Vanadium have better edge retention than ZDP189 which is a pure Carbon-Chrome steel? I believe carbide density is more important than carbide composition, but i'm not sure. Vanadium carbides are harder than chromium carbides but I believe that the carbides mainly tears out, not wears down. Not sure though.

Regards
//Jerker
Click to expand...
Sir,I must comment on this one as it is a major junction which you brought us to stand.You may have some legitmacy in the carbide density thinking vs carbide composition as I seen this w/ the CPM steel performance.S30V and S60V I noticed it will cut only about 1/3 of its ability really sharp and 2/3's sluggish.Say S30V is capable of cutting up 1500lbs. of meat. Only 500-550lbs. will it cut up w/ a really sharp edge the rest it will cut up but w/ a not sharp edge, more sluggish.I know this is the vandinum taking over which are harder carbides to hold that edge longer. But I don't care for the "slow" edge.
I had rather have a edge which cut like lighting all the way until its dull and you know its time to sharpen it than something cutting which your uncertain if its time to sharpen or not. Say, like 440C @60-61 will cut up 1000-1100lbs.all w/ a lighting edge and when it begans to cut sluggish you know its time to sharpen.Well, you just cut twice the amount as S30V with a real sharp edge before requiring sharpening.To me thats an advantage!
This field testing would substantiate your thinking that carbide density has a more positive effect on edge retention than carbide composition.Hence, what you surmise is we actually don't need vandium nor alot of other elements in a knife steel to attain great cut ability or good edge retention. DM
 
Sandvic 13C27 toke 22-nd place in my edge retention testing and Buck 420HC toke 16-th. Of course it will be Buck heat treating Sandvic and it may improve edge retention. will be interesting to see what Buck will be able to do with it.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. ZDP189 way ahead of all this high abrasive vanadium or niobium CPMs. I would love to see Buck's ZDP189. BTW - Japan is not hiding ZDP189 - this is urban legend here. I was able to buy it. Yuna from Thailand able to buy it. It is available as any other Hitachi steel. Hope Buck will try it sooner or later.
 
David Martin said:
Sir,I must comment on this one as it is a major junction which you brought us to stand.You may have some legitmacy in the carbide density thinking vs carbide composition as I seen this w/ the CPM steel performance.S30V and S60V I noticed it will cut only about 1/3 of its ability really sharp and 2/3's sluggish.Say S30V is capable of cutting up 1500lbs. of meat. Only 500-550lbs. will it cut up w/ a really sharp edge the rest it will cut up but w/ a not sharp edge, more sluggish.I know this is the vandinum taking over which are harder carbides to hold that edge longer. But I don't care for the "slow" edge.
I had rather have a edge which cut like lighting all the way until its dull and you know its time to sharpen it than something cutting which your uncertain if its time to sharpen or not. Say, like 440C @60-61 will cut up 1000-1100lbs.all w/ a lighting edge and when it begans to cut sluggish you know its time to sharpen.Well, you just cut twice the amount as S30V with a real sharp edge before requiring sharpening.To me thats an advantage!
This field testing would substantiate your thinking that carbide density has a more positive effect on edge retention than carbide composition.Hence, what you surmise is we actually don't need vandium nor alot of other elements in a knife steel to attain great cut ability or good edge retention. DM
Click to expand...

Hi David,
Molybdenum benefits the steel for corrosion resistance for sure. 154CM is similar to our 19C27 but it has like 4% molly also. This makes a real difference in corrosion resistance. 154CM/ATS34 is corrosion resistant in normal use. 19C27 isn't.

Regarding vanadium I'm not sure about the benefits. I would guess that if the carbide volume and dispersion is similar with steels both with and without Vanadium I would bet that the steel with vanadium will come out on top in terms of wear resistance. But comparing the effect of wear resistance based of carbide density, dispersion and composition is as you mentioned before a work worthy of a PhD thesis.

//Jerker
 
Jerker, A steel attaining 2micron edge is needed for shaving whiskers and can be of benefit in cutting procedures especially where fine cuts are required.But for merely lopping off a hind leg such as in field dressing a large mammal. Some may notice those benefits but what Americans notice is rust, how long it cuts and ease of sharpening.DM
 
i find i have to agree with david on this also..
that what many will want is supper sharp for longer, and low maintenance ..
especially if they are cutting meat..
as a young teen [apx 1965 to 67] i worked in kitchens as prep cook and preferred the carbon steel over stainless for cutting meat and veggies..
as a electrician helper [1967 on] one that was 98 % of supper sharp carbon much longer and did not rust was much more important,,
the slightly duller but MUCH stronger edge was way more use full and is why i loved the 440C 110 with its thicker edge ...
there is still a lot of what one will use the knife for that should be taken in to account but most the buying public here will not consider that..
most want the perfect all around knife needing no real care as they don't know how to care for a knife!
it is those of us that have learned the 5% differences that care..
a great many of the knife buying public will hear one of us speaking of a fantastic new knife and supper good steel and they will buy it..
i can not begin to tell you how many 110's i may have been responsible for some one buying since 1967 due to me lending them mine or jest bragging on mine..
here a LOT of sales are indrectly made by pro's bragging on what they use..

simple proof is
if a bunch of us here start talking of older knife and how well it worked for us
you can bet a buck that it will start being bid up on ebay!!
many of here have commented on that relationship of talk and prices..
if your steel passes muster by thoes that many will consider pro's or simi pro's
then it will sell much better..
 
David Martin said:
Jerker, A steel attaining 2micron edge is needed for shaving whiskers and can be of benefit in cutting procedures especially where fine cuts are required.But for merely lopping off a hind leg such as in field dressing a large mammal. Some may notice those benefits but what Americans notice is rust, how long it cuts and ease of sharpening.DM
Click to expand...

I agree, thats why I ask for feedback from people who use the steel. especially in comparison with other materials. There are people who would never ever use anything else then 420/420HC/1095/S30V/VG10 (take your pick). The feedback from one of these people that are in love with a certain steel will not be very valueble for us in order to improve the value of our products. But many opinions and feedback from many different users is very beneficial for us. that is why I'm here asking for feedback. In return I share my views and limited knowledge.

BUT, for the sake of the discussion I want to add a comment about how people tend to think in different countries. Knife philosophy is very diverse.

In the US, generally, edge retention is THE most important feature. This shows as high hardness, obtuse angles and thick spines. Toughness, sharpness and regrindability is less important since some knife companies also has re-grinding services. This means that coarse steel grades fit the "US-style" well.

In Japan it's the exact opposite. Sharpness is everything. The sashimi that still moves on the plate and all that. The "Japanese-knife" litterally have to be razor sharp. This means that japanese cutlery still has very much carbon steels like 1095 and 1075.

In Europe regrindability, toughness, sharpness and corrosion resistance is very important since Euro style knives tend to be more slender and have thinner edge geometries than the US ones.

Our philosopy is to have the best edge retention possible without sacrificing any of the toughness, edge-stability, sharpness or regrindability. For people who are looking for coarse grades with lower toughness, sharpness, edge-stability and worse re-grindability but better edge retention (wear resistance) there are tons of grades out there. The choice is there for producers and consumers to make. I only communicate our way of business and product development. Our future chromium steels will all be fine carbide steels because we believe that is where we need to be.
//Jerker

edit: Edge retention is a very relative word btw. Very few knives gets "dull" from actual wear. Chipping and edge-rolling are more common, so called lack of edge-stability. This is why comments from field testing is so important for us.
 
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Yes,I could'nt help but notice some cultural barriers pop up as this discussion continued.
Which is quite normal.Yes,us Americans are different.We think about knives differently and appreciate different shapes than Europeans.So, much of this is in another school of thought for you.Coming from a steel manufactoring back ground,how do we increase production,maintain efficiency,quality control,ect..We're thinking grind lines,heat treat,no rust,how it cuts,ect..So, yes the gaps are there but we're both learning things.DM
 
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