Buck using Sandvik?

Flatlander1963 said:
Jerker,

Your information is most appreciated. I do have a question too.
I actually have a few custom knives in 12C27 (from South Africa). Since I'm on the verge of receiving my Vantage Avid's in 12C26, I was wondering what the differences are between the two? Specifically in the basics: Staining, Easy Sharpening, Edge Retention, and Toughness.

Your participation here is most appreciated Jerker. Thanks for sharing.
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Hi Flatlander,
I met a guy from South Africa at ShotShow this year and used exclusively 12C27. I cant remember his name though, I'm not really good at names. He maxed out the hardness to 61HRC with thoose.

The main difference is that 13C26 has slightly more carbon and slightly less Chrome so it gets a bit harder and it's slightly less corrosion resistant. More carbides in 13C26 also means better edge retention. These two steels are about equal in terms of ease of sharpening and toughness IF they are at the same HRC level.

Actually these two grades were ones the same grade, in the 50:s. Made for stainless razorblades. Then out of these two came 12C27 for knives and 13c26 for Razors. We see that lately the 13C26 is getting more popular for the extra edge retention.

Regards
//Jerker
 
Jerker,
I hope this is not off topic, but I was wondering about some Swedish steel I have in the form of chisels. They are stamped "eskilstuna" and are VERY high quality chisels.

Would you know if that is a specific steel or only indicates the place of origin?

Thanks,
Peter
 
Hi Flatlander,
I met a guy from South Africa at ShotShow this year and used exclusively 12C27. I cant remember his name though, I'm not really good at names. He maxed out the hardness to 61HRC with thoose.
Click to expand...

First off thanks for the reply. Most interesting.
The South African make of my knives is Arno Bernard Jr. His father is also a maker and pretty well known over here I believe. Both make fine knives. g
 
Razorsharp244 said:
Hi again Haebbie,
The rules are as follows. First figure is carbon content x 20. So 13C26 has about 0.65% carbon and 12C27 has 0.6% carbon. 12C27M is the odd one, it should according to our standards be 10C29 since it has 0.52% Carbon.

The second figure is for 2x Crome content. So 13C26 has 13%Chrome and 12C27 has 13.5% Crome.

Strange but many steel codes are built in similar ways.
Regards
//Jerker
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Razor,I guess I missed something w/ this explation.But the figures work better if you divide by 2 those numbers not multiply x.DM
 
Razorsharp244 said:
Hi Dave,
No not really. The steels you list are in three distinct different categories.
1. S30V is a powder steel and we dont do powder steels at all within Sandvik Strip Steel.
2. 154CM and BG42. These are coarse carbide tool steels. Our 19C27 would fit this category with 0.95% Carbon and 13.5% crome. Maximum hardness is 63HRC.
3. We do no laminates or damscus steels. We supply some that use our steel as a component. Devon Tomas of Tomas Damascus uses 19C27 for for some of his product. I know William Henry knives uses his 19C27 Damascus. Laminated, no. The japanese are pretty much alone doing this. Also here we have supplied 19C27 and 13C26 as components but it's a while back now. i dont know of any end-users who used it.

Regards
//Jerker
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Ibelieve Dave ask about 154CPM. Isn't it a powder metallurgy steel.ie.fine grain.DM
 
David Martin said:
Ibelieve Dave ask about 154CPM. Isn't it a powder metallurgy steel.ie.fine grain.DM
Click to expand...

The whole point of making powder steels which is very expensive is to decrease carbide size so yes, you are right. But they still are large in our world.
Maximum carbide size diameter for:
1. Coarse grades like D2, 440C, ATS34 etc = 40-50 microns (0.0018")
2. High alloy PM steels like CPM 154 CM = 7-10 microns (0.00032")
3. Fine carbide steels like 13C26 and 12C27M = 2 microns (0.00008")

We define a sharp edge as haveing a radius of maximum 1 micron. So that is where our requirement comes from. Any carbide larger than 2 microns in diameter will make the steel more difficult sharpen to a high sharpness level.

Regards
//Jerker
 
David Martin said:
Razor,I guess I missed something w/ this explation.But the figures work better if you divide by 2 those numbers not multiply x.DM
Click to expand...

0.65 x 20 = 13
13 x 2 = 26

So the name is 13C26.

multiply one way and divide the other. We are both right unless i wrote the last post under the influence.

//Jerker
 
Flatlander1963 said:
First off thanks for the reply. Most interesting.
The South African make of my knives is Arno Bernard Jr. His father is also a maker and pretty well known over here I believe. Both make fine knives. g
Click to expand...

Thats right, he was the guy. He uses 12C27 at 61HRC. I really liked thoose knives, beutiful. Also his leather sheeths were quite different from what I have seen from other makers. I hope the steel does what it's supposed to for you.

regards
//Jerker
 
peterinct said:
Jerker,
I hope this is not off topic, but I was wondering about some Swedish steel I have in the form of chisels. They are stamped "eskilstuna" and are VERY high quality chisels.

Would you know if that is a specific steel or only indicates the place of origin?

Thanks,
Peter
Click to expand...

Eskilstuna is the old "knife capitol" of Sweden so it's a town. I dont know what steel they use in thoose chisels but "Eskilstuna" is the town of origin. If it's the brand "Bahco" or Sandvik then it used to be Sandvik owned until we sold that branch to the US company "Snap-on tools".

Regards
//Jerker
 
Razorsharp244 said:
But they still are large in our world.
Maximum carbide size diameter for:
1. Coarse grades like D2, 440C, ATS34 etc = 40-50 microns (0.0018")
2. High alloy PM steels like CPM 154 CM = 7-10 microns (0.00032")
3. Fine carbide steels like 13C26 and 12C27M = 2 microns (0.00008")

We define a sharp edge as haveing a radius of maximum 1 micron. So that is where our requirement comes from. Any carbide larger than 2 microns in diameter will make the steel more difficult sharpen to a high sharpness level.

Regards
//Jerker
Click to expand...

now this is good tech info..
thanks
 
No problem, I believe that it's a misconception of many that high hardness means more difficult to grind. I beleive the difference is bigger between 440C and 420HC both at 57 than between 440C at 57 or 60HRC. This also explain why many people think only carbon steels like 1095 gets REALLY sharp. Other steeels also gets sharp but it's more difficult. Carbides provide wear resistance though which for many justifies the more complicated grinding.

Large carbides tends to tear, either during grinding or by usage since the carbide is large relative edge radius. The edge will not be as sharp as a result but the exposed carbides provide wear resistance. Thats why 154CM, 440C, D2 etc perform so well in wear tests like CATRA for instance.

Regards
//Jerker
 
Razorsharp244 said:
Hi Dave,
No not really. The steels you list are in three distinct different categories.
1. S30V is a powder steel and we dont do powder steels at all within Sandvik Strip Steel.
2. 154CM and BG42. These are coarse carbide tool steels.

These two steel are generally considered to be martinsite stainless steels.154 CM is coarse,yes.But BG42 because of its vanadium content results in a fine grain structure.DM
Click to expand...
 
Yes, your correct probably not as fine. I think I remember Dr. Vorhemen putting 440C at 25 microns.Also,a steel which contains vanadium results in much better edge retention than one w/o this element.DM
 
David Martin said:
Yes, your correct probably not as fine. I think I remember Dr. Vorhemen putting 440C at 25 microns.Also,a steel which contains vanadium results in much better edge retention than one w/o this element.DM
Click to expand...

Does S30v with 4% Vanadium have better edge retention than ZDP189 which is a pure Carbon-Chrome steel? I believe carbide density is more important than carbide composition, but i'm not sure. Vanadium carbides are harder than chromium carbides but I believe that the carbides mainly tears out, not wears down. Not sure though.

Regards
//Jerker
 
David Martin said:
Razorsharp244 said:
Hi Dave,
No not really. The steels you list are in three distinct different categories.
1. S30V is a powder steel and we dont do powder steels at all within Sandvik Strip Steel.
2. 154CM and BG42. These are coarse carbide tool steels.

These two steel are generally considered to be martinsite stainless steels.154 CM is coarse,yes.But BG42 because of its vanadium content results in a fine grain structure.DM
Click to expand...

All knife steels are "martensitic". All stainless knife steels are martensitic stainless, with the possible exception of H1 which is a precipitation hardened austenitic steel.

There is no way that conventionally produced BG42 is a fine carbide steel. Over 1% carbon and 14% Chrome will never be fine grain no matter what else is put in there. The extra Molly and Vanadium will actually build even more (or larger) carbides. The only way to have a grade like BG42 fine-grain without carbides up to 30-50 microns would be to make it using powder technology.

Note: there is a difference between fine carbide and fine-grain. I have assumed that you refer to "fine carbide" since it's the most influential one regarding regrindability and edge wear resistance.

Best regards
//Jerker

PS. We might be way off topic by now. Let me know in that case. I try to answer questions directed to me to the best of my ability.
Click to expand...
 
The South African make of my knives is Arno Bernard Jr. His father is also a maker and pretty well known over here I believe. Both make fine knives. g
Click to expand...
Thats right, he was the guy. He uses 12C27 at 61HRC. I really liked thoose knives, beutiful. Also his leather sheeths were quite different from what I have seen from other makers. I hope the steel does what it's supposed to for you.
Click to expand...

Jerker,

Honestly, I haven't used my Arno Bernard knives. Just to pretty. But they are very sharp with great blade geometry. I have no doubt that they will perform superbly if called upon.
If I ever get to go on a Texas hog hunt, I'll break in the large skinner though.
Hope this picture doesn't piss off the Buck Brotherhood
So Top the Bottom: Med. Bowie/Ironwood; Large Skinner/Giraffe; Skinner/Snakewood; & Drop Point/Ebony
DSC_0846.jpg
 
Flatlander1963 said:
Jerker,
Honestly, I haven't used my Arno Bernard knives. Just to pretty. But they are very sharp with great blade geometry. I have no doubt that they will perform superbly if called upon.
If I ever get to go on a Texas hog hunt, I'll break in the large skinner though.
Hope this picture doesn't piss off the Buck Brotherhood
So Top the Bottom: Med. Bowie/Ironwood; Large Skinner/Giraffe; Skinner/Snakewood; & Drop Point/Ebony
DSC_0846.jpg
Click to expand...

sweet knives!!! i like the top one best.. that should stay a safe queen..;)
 
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