Burrs and Steel

[gunmike1]

Since Gunmike1 started talking smack about razors and sharpness, well, that's just fighting talk...

That Small Sebbie you gave me that takes subpar edges that my Dad loves so much did work great for me as a razor when I went to Disneyland a couple years ago. The name brand 3 blade disposable mangled my face in the first third of my shaving job so bad I threw it in the garbage. With the knife at .3 microns (admittedly a waste on that knife since past a certain point the edge just microcrumbled anyway) it finished the final 2/3 of my shave without a cut or razor burn. My Manix finished at Spyderco fine has also shaved my face before, but not nearly as nice as better steeled knives brought to a finer finish.

As a follow up to my last post, the Sharpmaker is impressing me all over again for microbevel sharpening. My Caly 3 ZDP came and it took only a couple minutes to go from dead dull to .3 micron finish and whttling hair so fine it was like dust. Now I just need to get those paper wheels for rebeveling work that would normally take a long time to only take a minute or so. After Richard rebeveled and sharpened my Superhawk I am completely sold on those paper wheels.

On a personal note Sodak, thanks again for everything over the years and your generous offer last week before I got off my butt and sold a couple knives to fund my Caly 3 ZDP. It is the second best Spyderco ever next to my Superhawk. And thanks again for the Sebbie, it is by far my dad's favorite knife no matter what we think of it's edge taking properties.

Mike

 

[Jason B.]

Sounds like a good method you have going there Knifenut. As for finishing on a hard surface versus leather you do have to watch your angle more, and like I was mentioning about my edge leading strokes on my lapping film over glass you have to be dead on with your angle, but at .3 and .05 microns the sharpness can be staggering when you get it right.

I don't think of my microbevels as cheating to get sharpness, as I use them to conserve steel by full bevel sharpening less and to sturdy up my edges after my sometimes insanely thin backbevels when they bring out chipping. Then again my opinion is biased . With a microbevel you can get several sharpenings in before the microbevel becomes noticeable and requires completely sharpening the back bevel. And yes, it is way quicker and easier to get consistently sharp edges, but again I first got into them after watching the Sharpmaker video and listening to Cliff on the forums, and I haven't looked back since. Especially now that I have had back surgery saving time and effort are very important to me, so microbevels, the Sharpmaker, and some of Richardj's paper wheels might start pushing my benchstones aside.

Mike

With hard surface stropping I do it all by feel, I "lock" in the bevel to the sharpening surface. The main reason I don't use micro bevels is because of the micro convex I put on the edge, even with hard surface stropping it still comes out a little convex. I have used micro bevels before but my OCD forces me back to a stright edge.

 

[sodak]

No problem, I'm glad he likes it! If you put that thing to your face, you're a brave man!

So, back to burrs, what steels burr for you all the least? For me, it's M2 HSS, CPM 3V, and Dozier D2. I've noticed that INFI and SR101/52100 both give me some burring, but it's easy to remove with ceramic stones/sticks, leaving a really clean edge.

The worst? Soft 420 HC, AUS 6A, and SAK stainless. They do take some work for me to remove.

 

[gunmike1]

Freehand skills take many years to perfect but there is no replacement for the sharpness achived by a edge that has been progressively reduced through the grits. I don't doubt that the paper wheels will give you a sharp edge but if your only so-so at freehand the paper wheels won't fix that.

Thanks to Ben Dale's great Edge Pro Sodak has no problem working through the grits to sick edges, and I think he is being way more than a bit modest saying his skills at freehanding are so so. He definately tends to understate his skills considering the knives of his that I have handled.

The paper wheels are very interesting for their speed and results. Like anything there is the learning curve, but actually knowing what is going on with an edge from experience and studying should speed the process. Richardj sure gets some nice edges in a minute or two on his. Like Sodak I have a pile of junk kitchen knives to sacrafice to practicing on. They may not give me the mental reward of working through 9 grits of benchstones and lapping films to get a wickedly sharp edge, but it won't give me the backache either.

Mike

 

[hardheart]

The rounding of the edge is most likely my fault because I use heavy pressure but like they say you can't teach a old dog new tricks.

I use light pressure through all the stones, my final passes on any stone are the same as my stropping strokes. You may find improvement at rougher grits if you can work on reducing force

 

[sodak]

I use light pressure through all the stones, my final passes on any stone are the same as my stropping strokes. You may find improvement at rougher grits if you can work on reducing force

Do you ever use round stones or ceramic sticks? I find it very hard to *not* burr a knife on them, as my pressure is all concentrated in one little area. Talk about trying to "skate" a knife over a surface...

 

[gunmike1]

Least burring would be CPM M4, 52100 Spyderco Mule, Mel Sorg D2, ZDP 189 (at least on waterstones and the other day on the SM as well), and CPM D2 by Spyderco are my best now. I do have CPM D2 at 61RC coming this week from Tom Krein that I expect to be excellent.

S&W 440C at 54RC, CRKT AUS-6 and their AUS-8 at 57RC burr terribly in my experience to the point of being useless to me because you are always chasing the burr and you have to be PERFECT to get any sort of passable edge on them. The burrs are so bad that they will just rip off to a ragged edge (as I first remember Cliff talking about) instead of having the strop clean up the edge like knifenut's pictures earlier in the thread showed.

Mike

 

[gunmike1]

I use light pressure through all the stones, my final passes on any stone are the same as my stropping strokes. You may find improvement at rougher grits if you can work on reducing force

Your technique sounds just like mine with regards to how much pressure you use. I use a very light touch. I think that having learned to lighten up so much over the last couple years on my benchstones is why I'm getting great results on the Sharpmaker where a couple years ago I was fighting microburring. I do use very heavy pressure when rebevelling on the D8XX, but use very light strokes with it when I actually sharpen with it. OCD does compel .3 micron or finer edges most of the time, but I never drop focus on the coarser grits.

Mike

 

[Jason B.]

I use light pressure through all the stones, my final passes on any stone are the same as my stropping strokes. You may find improvement at rougher grits if you can work on reducing force

I only use heavy pressure on my strop's and in the begining with my ceramics. I use medium but usually light pressure on my diamonds, they seem to work better with less pressure.

 

[thombrogan]

The main reason I don't use micro bevels is because of the micro convex I put on the edge, even with hard surface stropping it still comes out a little convex.

So you've found a way to add both a microbevel and plausible deniability into your sharpening!

Lately, I've been sharpening the same as Chef Chung does in that video you posted. Before that, I did more bastidized version, also inspired by Chef Chung.

The good thing is that it's a mechanical formula which will normally yield predictable results so long as you form a burr or are darned close to forming a burr with the coarsest hone used.

The bad thing is that it disconnects the sharpener from the more intimate parts of the process if the rapid pace of the video is followed and especially if adherance to an arbitrary formula trumps other factors.

But the bad thing; the tendency rote actions and somambulism; does not disturb when you can't even feel the hairs your edge cleaves.

I cannot note any superiority to my preferred method; I can only cede that it's an extravagance I richly enjoy both while sharpening and when later cutting.

 

[Jason B.]

Not micro bevels but micro convex, its caused as you may know by the slight differences in angle with each stroke across the stone. Then when stropping on leather with compound it evens up the surface and gives it a slight convex shape.

VG-10 delica sharpened using DMT aligner and benchstones. VG-10 seems to be one of those problem steels with burr's but for whatever reason it seems to do better when perfect angles are applied.

JYD II CB sharpened by hand (micro convex). CPM-D2 is the complete oposite, it is one of the few that sharpen with almost no burr. CPM-D2 also can reach a extreme level of sharpness but like D2 is seems to perform better with a little lesser of a edge.

Sorry about the glare I am using flashlights on either side of the blade to provide enough light.

 

[thombrogan]

Not micro bevels but micro convex

plausible deniability

I was just teasing you because mentioned that you wouldn't raise the angle to your stones/strop slightly higher for a slightly more robust edge (and likened it to "cheating") yet you intentionally choose a manner of sharpening which causes you to unavoidably raise the angle to your stones/strop slightly higher. It might not technically be a micro-bevel, but a micro-polybaric? that involves the same action and is done for the same intention is pretty identical as most microbevels are slightly rounded as well.

 

[sodak]

What camera are you using?

 

[Jason B.]

http://www.drtoy.com/awards/product.php?ProductID=5839

They make a better one for just under $100 with higher resolution, I might get it in the future because I am not real happy with the quality of the pic's.

 

[Dog of War]

LOL! If I were to jump in here with every disagreement I have with things that have been said, it would take all day to write the post. But I sure as hell find the variety of opinions presented very interesting, and the different points of view well-defended.

Carry on, gentlemen.

 

[thombrogan]

The things one does when a 4261UG is on the slowest van UPS owns.

 

[Dog of War]

The things one does when a 4261UG is on the slowest van UPS owns.

Yeah ... you sound just like a little kid on Christmas eve. Know the feeling well.

.

 

[gunmike1]

I was just teasing you because mentioned that you wouldn't raise the angle to your stones/strop slightly higher for a slightly more robust edge (and likened it to "cheating") yet you intentionally choose a manner of sharpening which causes you to unavoidably raise the angle to your stones/strop slightly higher. It might not technically be a micro-bevel, but a micro-polybaric? that involves the same action and is done for the same intention is pretty identical as most microbevels are slightly rounded as well.

I can say for a fact that all of my microbevels are microconvexed due to biomechanics. Without a jig holding my blade I am stuck with convexing on my cheater edges, but they sure do get sharp fast! ZDP 189 going from dead dull to hair whittling on the sharpmaker in a couple minutes is fun and rewarding. I can't wait until my back gets better so I can thin my horribly thick 10 degree per side factory edge. Until then I will just have to enjoy great cutting instead of sublime cutting from my Caly 3 ZDP. Once my Caly Jr ZDP gets back from Tom Krein after getting stamped it's .005" edge's unreal cutting ability will probably force me to get the Caly 3 ZDP reground to a high hollow grind of about .004" just so the nicer CF knife can have bragging rights over it's FRN predecessor.

You, like me are stocking the postman as well (well, you are stalking the big brown truck over yet another chef's knife). I am stalking over a ton of pocket knives and a custom fixed blade. I have my Kreinage, including my Krein custom Hydra and reground Police 3 coming (along with the Caly Jr) as well as an Endura 4 SE coming seperately that will surely go to Krein and also a Civilian for my Dad, all due this week. It is driving me nuts!

Mike

 

[gunmike1]

LOL! If I were to jump in here with every disagreement I have with things that have been said, it would take all day to write the post. But I sure as hell find the variety of opinions presented very interesting, and the different points of view well-defended.

Carry on, gentlemen.

Instead of writing a War and Peace length post about what you disagree with, why not post how you sharpen? Like I've said several times in the thread I like to see how other people get their edges, as I may be able to steal something from you to get my edges sharper. Threads like this can really help people learn a lot about sharpening. A few years ago it was threads like this that both educated and confused me, and the more people that get nice edges post their techniques the better this thread can get.

Mike

 

[Dog of War]

Instead of writing a War and Peace length post about what you disagree with, why not post how you sharpen? Like I've said several times in the thread I like to see how other people get their edges, as I may be able to steal something from you to get my edges sharper. Threads like this can really help people learn a lot about sharpening. A few years ago it was threads like this that both educated and confused me, and the more people that get nice edges post their techniques the better this thread can get.

Mike

Hi, Mike ... and BTW, nice to see you posting more (or so it appears.)

Anyway, my 'basic' sharpening technique is very simple, and mostly described in my reply #3 to this thread. I sharpen the primary (relief) bevel at medium grit, chase any burr using Jeff Clark's trick of 3-4 very light passes on fine ceramic at elevated angle, ~40 deg./side, and then apply the final edge as a microbevel using CrockSticks or Sharpmaker fine rods, usually about 5 deg./side steeper than the primary angle. I use extremely light pressure during the microbeveling. I rarely strop, but when I do I use clay coated paper.

I arrived at this simple technique after much reading, and much experimentation when I was actively doing edge retention testing here. With better steels, it's easy to achieve an edge which will pushcut newsprint at >5" from point of hold without any stropping.

Additionally, my personal edge retention tests generally confirmed statements I've read from Roman Landes regarding edge stability and angle ... this, in turn, provides powerful argument in favor of using a microbeveling technique. High alloy stainless steels I've tested show appreciable loss of edge retention with a terminal, or apex, edge angle of less than 40 deg. inclusive -- and since there's no discernible loss in performance to running a microbevel of that angle, well.... Also I've yet to find any steel that doesn't show better edge retention with a final/terminal edge of ~30 deg. inclusive than what you get at appreciably lower angles. So again, the microbevel IMO is really the key to optimum sharpening in most cases.