Burrs and Steel

[thombrogan]

Now that's some very digestible information, DoW! Thanks to Mike for pushing your buttons!

 

[Dog of War]

Now that's some very digestible information, DoW! Thanks to Mike for pushing your buttons!

And zero grams trans fat.

I can almost hear the scathing rebuttals being typed....

 

[gunmike1]

Nice reply, DOW. I have got hair whittling edges at DMT fine and Spyderco medium stones, and have broken the 5" barrier on newsprint without my lapping film. That extra sharpness from the finer grits is addicting, and hard to quantify on newsprint because it gets hard to keep newsprint from flopping around when you start trying to get much past 5". I'm glad your testing supports my love of my lazy man's microbevels. I guess I need to fatten mine up on some steels, if 40 inclusive seems optimal. I usually go with 15 per side on most steels and most times 10 per side on my thinner ZDP, M4, and super blue knives. Have you done any testing with any of my favorite thin angle steels to support me keeping them so thin, or should I go to a porky 40 inclusive edge like you found optimal on the more common folder steels?

Thanks, Mike

 

[donny bee]

I like to sharpen with a dmt course followed up with a sharpmaker. Not the sharpest blades in the world, but i have other things that require my time.

 

[hardheart]

Do you ever use round stones or ceramic sticks? I find it very hard to *not* burr a knife on them, as my pressure is all concentrated in one little area. Talk about trying to "skate" a knife over a surface...

yeah, ceramic rods, dmt sharpening steel, and spyderco profiles. That's where I really stated lightening the pressure, since the contact area was so small. I sometimes lift the blade from the surface because my passes are so light on finishing strokes. It does keep me from rounding the edge on leather, I've tried triple digit passes and no problems with the cute cutting tricks after.

 

[sodak]

That reminds me of a painting trick. I used to watch Bob Ross on "The Joy of Painting" - talk about a master. He makes the impossible look like a child could do it. He would talk of using a brush very, very lightly to put some paint on an area of his canvas, and his saying was "two hairs and some air".

Sounds about right for your passes too. I'm not sure my fine motor skills are at that level.

 

[thombrogan]

Try two and one half hairs and some air and work your way up.

 

[Dog of War]

Nice reply, DOW. I have got hair whittling edges at DMT fine and Spyderco medium stones, and have broken the 5" barrier on newsprint without my lapping film. That extra sharpness from the finer grits is addicting, and hard to quantify on newsprint because it gets hard to keep newsprint from flopping around when you start trying to get much past 5". I'm glad your testing supports my love of my lazy man's microbevels. I guess I need to fatten mine up on some steels, if 40 inclusive seems optimal. I usually go with 15 per side on most steels and most times 10 per side on my thinner ZDP, M4, and super blue knives. Have you done any testing with any of my favorite thin angle steels to support me keeping them so thin, or should I go to a porky 40 inclusive edge like you found optimal on the more common folder steels?

Thanks, Mike

Thanks, Mike. Cliff and I discussed microbevels at length in the past; don't know if he may have come to a different conclusion since then, but his opinion was that a microbevel of ~20 deg/side didn't measurably affect performance. Thus ... why not use one?

Even on high edge stability steels like 13C26, I find a 17 deg/side microbevel gives better edge retention than 15 deg/side, though the difference isn't great. Going to 20 deg/side, I can't detect any improvement in edge retention on these steels -- although again, I can't say it hurts performance. But IMO it's very interesting, there's this relatively small range from about 15 deg/side to 20 deg/side which could be thought of as the 'critical final edge angle' for pretty much the entire range of better cutlery steels.

Re: "favorite thin angle steels" ... well, no, I haven't done a lot of work with these, but have done a bit, mostly with the SG's. Nothing conclusive, but these do seem to be able to support more acute primary angle geometry; however again, as regards microbevel and final edge angle, while they seem to behave better than 'common' high alloy stainlesses like S30V, I still feel there's a loss in edge retention if you get below ~17 deg/side. FWIW I'm not satisfied with the work I've done here, largely because of difficultly finding appropriate sharpening tools and media ... what's really needed IMO are 10,000 mesh DMT rods to make results comparable with other work I've done. But that's a whole 'nuther topic....

 

[sodak]

What's really needed is to hit the lottery jackpot so I have the time to do all the testing that I'd want to do!!!

 

[Dog of War]

That reminds me of a painting trick. I used to watch Bob Ross on "The Joy of Painting" - talk about a master. He makes the impossible look like a child could do it. He would talk of using a brush very, very lightly to put some paint on an area of his canvas, and his saying was "two hairs and some air".

Sounds about right for your passes too. I'm not sure my fine motor skills are at that level.

Yo, Sodak! I think it is kind of like Thom suggests: with practice come skills that surprise. FWIW I sometimes have a good deal of hand tremor, but I've spent enough time with the stones 'n rods working on that whisper-soft sharpening touch that it's just second nature now.

I know, too, I've probably started to sound like a broken record lately, but for me mastering this thing of very light pressure has made all the difference in the quality of edges I get. Initially it was quite a shock to realize that using a super light touch was necessary to achieving the best edge retention ... I mean, we tend to think of steel as hard and tough (which it is.) But as you observe, the pressures during sharpening, especially on rods, can easily become very high. So my whole focus now is one of 'finessing' that final edge. And along with much improved edge retention, I found, like Mike has, that pushcutting sharpness takes a quantum leap as well.

Of course I'm sure you're achieving blazing sharpness yourself, probably using techniques that would defy me with my narrow skill set. And that's part of the fun of discussions like these ... all roads lead to Rome, as they say, and ultimately that's all that matters.

 

[sodak]

Yo, Sodak! I think it is kind of like Thom suggests: with practice come skills that surprise. FWIW I sometimes have a good deal of hand tremor, but I've spent enough time with the stones 'n rods working on that whisper-soft sharpening touch that it's just second nature now.

I know, too, I've probably started to sound like a broken record lately, but for me mastering this thing of very light pressure has made all the difference in the quality of edges I get. Initially it was quite a shock to realize that using a super light touch was necessary to achieving the best edge retention ... I mean, we tend to think of steel as hard and tough (which it is.) But as you observe, the pressures during sharpening, especially on rods, can easily become very high. So my whole focus now is one of 'finessing' that final edge. And along with much improved edge retention, I found, like Mike has, that pushcutting sharpness takes a quantum leap as well.

Of course I'm sure you're achieving blazing sharpness yourself, probably using techniques that would defy me with my narrow skill set. And that's part of the fun of discussions like these ... all roads lead to Rome, as they say, and ultimately that's all that matters.

Yo Dawg!

I'm doing ok, but the extreme levels elude me most of the time. Ironically, it took using my Edgepro to really understand burrs and matching bevels. The more that I use it, the better my freehand skills become, simply because I know what to look for.

I'm experimenting with ways of freehand that minimize angle errors, kind of like supporting parts of my arm the way weldors do. I think that will give me more gains right now than anything. Simply having a table at waist height just gets me so far.

But hey, if this were easy, it wouldn't be any fun, now would it?

 

[thombrogan]

Sodak,

My EdgePro gave me the confidence to get into freehanding and now freehanding is my preferred manner of sharpening all but recurved blades. Of course, with wider hones displacing excessive force, it's also harder to go back to the EdgePro as the 1" wide hones don't tolerate my bluster. Slowly relearning my Sharpmaker as my EDC is a serrated hawkbill and that's been a challenge.

Another thing I've noticed is that sharpening can be cue-based or formula-based and that cue-based sharpening is more frustrating during sharpening and formula-based sharpening is more frustrating after the job is done. If you remember the Sharpmaker's instructions, they start with a formula (40 passes on the brown corners, 40 passes on the brown flats....) and then advise the reader to search out cues (auditory, tactile, visual) that the edge has been reached and sharpened to speed up the process and obtain better results. In the waterstone world, Chiharu Sugai says an advanced technique is to stop after every pass on a stone to see how the edge has progressed.

DoW,

Your mention of microbevels and their effects on edge retention has got my poor brain (all nine cells) going! Muchas gracias, muchacho! The angles you mentioned (20 per side or so for highly-alloyed steels; a little thinner for less-alloyed steels) reminds me of Phil Wilson's input on sharpening and the steels he prefers for most of his customers (CPM154, S30V, other stuff with a V...) and an experience I've had with some small fixed blades. I like putting large, shiny bevels on my pocket fixed blades with a time consuming ritual involving either waterstones or a belt sander. On two occasions, with knives in 52100, I 'touched up' the edge by applying a 40 degree microbevel using Spyderco's 'ultra-fine' hones in their Sharpmaker. On both occasions, it was less than 10 passes to take the edge from 'sorta dull, but still cutting okay' to 'tree-topping sharp' and the edge experienced no loss in cutting ability.

I try not to think of such things, but they're there. Thanks.

 

[gunmike1]

Thanks, Mike. Cliff and I discussed microbevels at length in the past; don't know if he may have come to a different conclusion since then, but his opinion was that a microbevel of ~20 deg/side didn't measurably affect performance. Thus ... why not use one?

Even on high edge stability steels like 13C26, I find a 17 deg/side microbevel gives better edge retention than 15 deg/side, though the difference isn't great. Going to 20 deg/side, I can't detect any improvement in edge retention on these steels -- although again, I can't say it hurts performance. But IMO it's very interesting, there's this relatively small range from about 15 deg/side to 20 deg/side which could be thought of as the 'critical final edge angle' for pretty much the entire range of better cutlery steels.

Re: "favorite thin angle steels" ... well, no, I haven't done a lot of work with these, but have done a bit, mostly with the SG's. Nothing conclusive, but these do seem to be able to support more acute primary angle geometry; however again, as regards microbevel and final edge angle, while they seem to behave better than 'common' high alloy stainlesses like S30V, I still feel there's a loss in edge retention if you get below ~17 deg/side. FWIW I'm not satisfied with the work I've done here, largely because of difficultly finding appropriate sharpening tools and media ... what's really needed IMO are 10,000 mesh DMT rods to make results comparable with other work I've done. But that's a whole 'nuther topic....

Thanks for all of the work. I guess my sharpmaker sticks need to go to the 20 degree slots, though my ego can't take it! Nah, as long as it works better for edge retention all the better. I will have to keep my backbevels thin, though! The micro bevel is so small that it is hardly even visible, and once it starts taking me more than a handfull of passes per side or becomes easily visible I reset the backbevel.

Good luck on the 10000 mesh DMT rods, but unfortunately I don't think it would have as many takers as is required to put it into production. I'd buy them, though!

Mike

 

[sodak]

Sodak,
Another thing I've noticed is that sharpening can be cue-based or formula-based and that cue-based sharpening is more frustrating during sharpening and formula-based sharpening is more frustrating after the job is done. If you remember the Sharpmaker's instructions, they start with a formula (40 passes on the brown corners, 40 passes on the brown flats....) and then advise the reader to search out cues (auditory, tactile, visual) that the edge has been reached and sharpened to speed up the process and obtain better results. In the waterstone world, Chiharu Sugai says an advanced technique is to stop after every pass on a stone to see how the edge has progressed.

Good points Thom. I'm to the point where I can easily tell if I'm hitting the bevel or not, the amount of drag seems to increase by a factor of 10 when I hit it just right. Still practicing and learning, though. And that really is the fun part. I'm at about 50 hairs and some air!

DOW got me thinking about the contact patch. Some of my thinner edges can be deformed with a fingernail, I actually put a really good sized dent into a straight razor by careless handling and a bump on my thumbnail. I've been using micro bevels also, but am still experimenting with thinness v.s. angles. It's pretty interesting that a fully hard steel at 60 HRC can be bent by a soft fingernail, but at the thicknesses we're talking, no wonder extreme care is needed.

 

[Dog of War]

Yo Dawg!

I'm doing ok, but the extreme levels elude me most of the time. Ironically, it took using my Edgepro to really understand burrs and matching bevels. The more that I use it, the better my freehand skills become, simply because I know what to look for.

I'm experimenting with ways of freehand that minimize angle errors, kind of like supporting parts of my arm the way weldors do. I think that will give me more gains right now than anything. Simply having a table at waist height just gets me so far.

But hey, if this were easy, it wouldn't be any fun, now would it?

Yeah, I've found sharpening is one of those cumulative skills, where each additional skill adds understanding, which in turn helps improve other skills. Pretty neat like that, IMO.

I have a homemade jig I use to hold a benchstone off verticle so I can use it sort of like a big, heavy-duty, one-sided Sharpmaker. I've also seen guys post pics here of holding a benchstone in a panavise. Regardless of how I sharpen, I seem to use a lot of body 'english' along with arm and hand motion ... even freehanding with stone in one hand, knife in the other, it's like I have to get this whole body rhythm going. Weird, huh?

You're right, of course, the fun is 67% in overcoming the challenge. The other 33% is enjoying a good beer while you're doing it, and taking frequent breaks just to take it all in and enjoy the escape from the day-to-day B.S. of life in general.

... thinking about the contact patch. Some of my thinner edges can be deformed with a fingernail, I actually put a really good sized dent into a straight razor by careless handling and a bump on my thumbnail. I've been using micro bevels also, but am still experimenting with thinness v.s. angles. It's pretty interesting that a fully hard steel at 60 HRC can be bent by a soft fingernail, but at the thicknesses we're talking, no wonder extreme care is needed.

That's interesting, I've never tried it, but certainly consistent with the difference in edge retention you get with very light pressure.

Thinking about this a bit ... and you know, I recall getting a couple of laminated Moras, O1 cores at 61-61HRC, where the edge near the tip was bent pretty good. Sharpening them out there was no reason to think they weren't the proper hardness, so I think this is another example of how fragile a thin edge really is.

DoW,

Your mention of microbevels and their effects on edge retention has got my poor brain (all nine cells) going! Muchas gracias, muchacho! The angles you mentioned (20 per side or so for highly-alloyed steels; a little thinner for less-alloyed steels) reminds me of Phil Wilson's input on sharpening and the steels he prefers for most of his customers (CPM154, S30V, other stuff with a V...) and an experience I've had with some small fixed blades. I like putting large, shiny bevels on my pocket fixed blades with a time consuming ritual involving either waterstones or a belt sander. On two occasions, with knives in 52100, I 'touched up' the edge by applying a 40 degree microbevel using Spyderco's 'ultra-fine' hones in their Sharpmaker. On both occasions, it was less than 10 passes to take the edge from 'sorta dull, but still cutting okay' to 'tree-topping sharp' and the edge experienced no loss in cutting ability.

I try not to think of such things, but they're there. Thanks.

If there's any drawback to using a microbevel, I've yet to find it. I would say it's greatest benefit is just the time savings, like you point out ... except there's also the fact that it basically allows you to run an optimal primary/relief geometry, while still getting the edge holding of a more robust apex. So between those two pluses, the microbevel IMO is the greatest sharpening 'invention' of all.

Thanks for all of the work. I guess my sharpmaker sticks need to go to the 20 degree slots, though my ego can't take it! Nah, as long as it works better for edge retention all the better. I will have to keep my backbevels thin, though! The micro bevel is so small that it is hardly even visible, and once it starts taking me more than a handfull of passes per side or becomes easily visible I reset the backbevel.

Good luck on the 10000 mesh DMT rods, but unfortunately I don't think it would have as many takers as is required to put it into production. I'd buy them, though!

Mike

I truly doubt you'll see any degradation in performace, adding a 20 deg/side microbevel. And I would be very interested in what differences you might see in edge retention using those SuperSteels you like, over a few rounds of cutting cardboard.

Re: the 10,000 mesh diamond rods ... I think this would be the biggest boon to getting wider acceptance and use of steels like ZDP189, S110V, etc. Not that you can't achieve super sharpness on these steels with diamond paste, some abrasive papers, etc., but the Sharpmaker-style of finish sharpening is just so convenient and fast, and IMO provides the most consistent edge. Spyderco could pull a real coup if they came out with some ultra-ultra-fine diamond sleeves (Sal, are you listening?)

 

[thombrogan]

The 0.3 micron lapping film is coming out tonight and the microbevel is going onto my favorite kitchen knife.

Muahahahahahahaha!

 

[gunmike1]

Yeah, I've found sharpening is one of those cumulative skills, where each additional skill adds understanding, which in turn helps improve other skills. Pretty neat like that, IMO.

I have a homemade jig I use to hold a benchstone off verticle so I can use it sort of like a big, heavy-duty, one-sided Sharpmaker. I've also seen guys post pics here of holding a benchstone in a panavise. Regardless of how I sharpen, I seem to use a lot of body 'english' along with arm and hand motion ... even freehanding with stone in one hand, knife in the other, it's like I have to get this whole body rhythm going. Weird, huh?




If there's any drawback to using a microbevel, I've yet to find it. I would say it's greatest benefit is just the time savings, like you point out ... except there's also the fact that it basically allows you to run an optimal primary/relief geometry, while still getting the edge holding of a more robust apex. So between those two pluses, the microbevel IMO is the greatest sharpening 'invention' of all.


I truly doubt you'll see any degradation in performace, adding a 20 deg/side microbevel. And I would be very interested in what differences you might see in edge retention using those SuperSteels you like, over a few rounds of cutting cardboard.

Re: the 10,000 mesh diamond rods ... I think this would be the biggest boon to getting wider acceptance and use of steels like ZDP189, S110V, etc. Not that you can't achieve super sharpness on these steels with diamond paste, some abrasive papers, etc., but the Sharpmaker-style of finish sharpening is just so convenient and fast, and IMO provides the most consistent edge. Spyderco could pull a real coup if they came out with some ultra-ultra-fine diamond sleeves (Sal, are you listening?)

I find it amusing you basically sharpen on benchstones like I do by setting the angle from horizontal. We are also long time believers in the benefits of microbevels, mainly superfast sharpening with no noticeable loss of cutting performance. I doubt I will see one shred of loss of cutting perormance on a 20 degree microbevel considering I never let mine get thick unless I went WAY too thin on a backbevel.

One way to keep the convienence and speed of a sharpmaker edge with more polish is cutting tiny strips of 3M lapping film with it's PSA backing and sticking them on the UF rods once you are done with that grit. I have been doing this recently and getting edges way sharper than just the UF in very little time. It took 2 minutes or so to go from dull to way sharp on my ZDP Caly 3 on a microbevel working through the 3 SM grits and 2 lapping film grits. It may be worth a try. E mail me at gunmike1@comcast.net and maybe I can mail you some lapping film to try. I would be interested in your results.

Mike

 

[sodak]

I doubt I will see one shred of loss of cutting perormance on a 20 degree microbevel considering I never let mine get thick unless I went WAY too thin on a backbevel.

This warrants more talk. I'm going to start a new thread, apologies to smash for getting way off topic.

 

[Dog of War]

I find it amusing you basically sharpen on benchstones like I do by setting the angle from horizontal. We are also long time believers in the benefits of microbevels, mainly superfast sharpening with no noticeable loss of cutting performance. I doubt I will see one shred of loss of cutting perormance on a 20 degree microbevel considering I never let mine get thick unless I went WAY too thin on a backbevel.

One way to keep the convienence and speed of a sharpmaker edge with more polish is cutting tiny strips of 3M lapping film with it's PSA backing and sticking them on the UF rods once you are done with that grit. I have been doing this recently and getting edges way sharper than just the UF in very little time. It took 2 minutes or so to go from dull to way sharp on my ZDP Caly 3 on a microbevel working through the 3 SM grits and 2 lapping film grits. It may be worth a try. E mail me at gunmike1@comcast.net and maybe I can mail you some lapping film to try. I would be interested in your results.

Mike

I guess great minds really do think alike, huh? Seriously, it's interesting to see others who've come to the same realization, that not only is this a great shortcut and time saver, but lends itself ideally to blades that are more optimally profiled. Again I'll be very interested in your findings with the 20 deg/side microbevel ... maybe you'll be able to tell the difference, but I can't.

I would very much like to try the films, and appreciate the offer. Have considered such in the past and glad to hear it works so well. Look for incoming email.

This warrants more talk. I'm going to start a new thread, apologies to smash for getting way off topic.

Cool! Gettin' kinda jazzed to do a bit more quantified work on this as well, so IMO it will be good to get as much input from everyone as possible.