Bushcraft the W&SS new age religeon?

[Marcelo Cantu]

Great thread!

For me, they are close branches of the same tree.

They are similar in that they both encompass a journey of acquisition, practice and mastery certain skillsets, most passed from our forefathers or someone else's forefathers geared at solving problems with what's available in the wilds and in one's head. They share the idea of man overcoming. They share familiarity with one's tools. I think very subconsciously there is, and this is why kgd's title is fitting, a deep and abiding sense of cultivating one's integrity right along with the developement of said skills. This is what I have found to be the central and connecting thread among the various and varied folks that inhabit this sub-forum.

Survivalism and bushcraft are different in that with pure survivalism the skill is the grail. the discipline of having all bases covered both mentally and physically. A full toolbox in one's head and in one's ruck. Whereas in bushcraft while there is that as well, just more subtle, there is also this bit of joy derived from the anthropology and history involved in the various skillsets. There is also the progression from raw skill to artful expression in the practice of said skills.

I agree with most of what's been written. Except the generalizations even if tongue in cheek. I have found in my adult life that for the most part my generalizations about people are dead wrong. There are asses in every strata of outdoors enthusiasts just as there are some cool as fu** individuals in those same groups.

 

[dougo83]

Great thread!

For me, they are close branches of the same tree.

They are similar in that they both encompass a journey of acquisition, practice and mastery certain skillsets, most passed from our forefathers or someone else's forefathers geared at solving problems with what's available in the wilds and in one's head. They share the idea of man overcoming. They share familiarity with one's tools. I think very subconsciously there is, and this is why kgd's title is fitting, a deep and abiding sense of cultivating one's integrity right along with the developement of said skills. This is what I have found to be the central and connecting thread among the various and varied folks that inhabit this sub-forum.

Survivalism and bushcraft are different in that with pure survivalism the skill is the grail. the discipline of having all bases covered both mentally and physically. A full toolbox in one's head and in one's ruck. Whereas in bushcraft while there is that as well, just more subtle, there is also this bit of joy derived from the anthropology and history involved in the various skillsets. There is also the progression from raw skill to artful expression in the practice of said skills.

I agree with most of what's been written. Except the generalizations even if tongue in cheek. I have found in my adult life that for the most part my generalizations about people are dead wrong. There are asses in every strata of outdoors enthusiasts just as there are some cool as fu** individuals in those same groups.

Guess you overlooked the part where I said just that?

 

[Marcelo Cantu]

I didn't

 

[Mistwalker]

I see very little similarity between Bushcraft and survival. There would be a connection if a survival situation arises while you are in the Bush or woods. However a Survivalist is a person who can survive any situation that they are thrust into. It may be in the woods, in the water, in the jungle or in a dessert or in a urban jungle. It may well be a situation that you can't practice for or have any control over.

There is no really survival involved in packing all the necessary gear, deciding where to go and then go there, Bush craft is just simply having outdoor woods skills. OK maybe a planned survival?

I agree. Especially when you use just the word "survival", without a location qualifier, in a comparison to bushcraft. I see several people every week who know quite a bit about survival, and though they may have a completely different take on the terms hunting and gathering are obviously fairly effective at it as evidenced by their prolific presence in the various woods of this city. However in quite a few talks with some of them I have yet to run across any who knew how to start a fire by spark or friction methods. I've yet to meet any who had any idea that the fruit on the trees behind them were pears and edible...the trees in the park are so large and the fruit so small as to not resemble the pears they've seen in the grocery store, nor did they know that the dark green stalks of grass with the tufts on top made up of little white balls that they were sitting beside were onions, or that the weeds behind them were wild carrots. Their ideas of debris shelters involve things like fiberglass roofing panels, sheet metal, concrete blocks, and sheets of plastic, and I'm not sure I'd even want to know what they'd think the term fuzz-stick was referring to.

The way I see it the word Bushcraft, with the word craft being half of the compound word, implies a certain amount of artistic creativity while the word survival precludes the artistic (though can often require a good deal of creativity) and instead denotes more of an expedient efficient functionality.

 

[skammer]

Bushcraters are only people interested in survival and practice some traditional methods.

NEVER! in all my outings have I seen a true hard core bushcrafter just varying degrees of REI, WalMart and survival types. To categorize bushcrafters as anything other than part time traditional curiosity seekers is nuts.

I have watched every episode Ray Mears ever produced and Ray the so called king of bushcraft is a survival guy like everyone hear who does some traditional skills. All the while he sleeps in a hammock, uses 99% modern gear and has a massive film crew to carry his stuff.

The most primitive dude I ever met was Cody Lundin and he litterally traveled with a belt knife and the clothes on his back for days at a time. How many do this? Right none..

So stop categorizing this BS as we are much more similar than different. The fact I use a bic to start a fire does not mean I cant friction light one if need be.

If I get a bushcrafter snob in one of my courses I tell them its all or nothing. One knife and you are on your own. Never have they taken up the challenge.

PLEEEAZE! Spare me.

Skam

 

[batosai117]

I suppose this is my take on the two terms:

Bushcraft: The art and knowledge of performing rudimentary, outdoor tasks that would have been common knowledge to our ancestors. When we "play" around making bow drills, setting simple snares, finding natural ways of boiling water, making shelter in different types of weather (snow, desert, woods, jungle, island), how to prepare and store game, etc....that to me is improving your bushcrafting skills.

Survival(ism): The will to survive an unexpected turn of events and see your way out of it. Your odds of surviving a real SHTF situation (falling down a hillside and breaking a leg...) would be greatly improved with a strong will and helped along with some simple bushcraft skills (fire for signal and warmth, making a whistle, obtaining water from your surroundings - moring dew, some plants, the plastic and cup trick, etc..)

So, to me going out with a pack of gear for a day hike or even a week or longer is camping. Performing natural fire making, building a shelter, and even some flint napping (if this is in your neck of the woods) on your trip would be performing the act of bushcrafting. If you break a leg or get lost on this same outing, then you are forced into surviving and the use your bushcraft skills helps you stay kicking.....savvy?

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I see bushcraft as something our ancestors did, and survival as something that happens to you and you have to overcome it.

I'll go along with this. There are all sorts of people interested in getting out into the wild, even if it's only a city park. Different types of gear and experience levels shouldn't hide the underlying similarity of interest: enjoying open country without the distractions of civilization.

On this forum we look for a fairly seriously commitment to learning the skills necessary to live comfortably outdoors, even for a short period of time.

But survivalism has a broader aspect. Not just making it through a tough hike in the wilderness, where your gear and skills are challenged by harsh conditions. Survivalism is a legitimate mindset that plans for future problems by stocking up, preparing equipment, and developing skills in case of natural or man-made disasters.

A subset of this is the careful planning and equipping for travel in rough environments, assuming risks beyond those encountered in ordinary outdoor living for recreation. In this sense, most outdoor work should take on a survivalist mindset: military, exploration, construction.

 

[chopchop]

In my mind, survivalism has one goal - survive by any means necessary, and the quicker you're back safe, the better.

Bushcraft, on the other hand, is implicitly about living with nature, in nature.


Everybody wants to come back safe, so in that sense, we're all survivalists. To me, though, the term "survivalist" conjures up some kind of armageddon/zombieland scenario. No offense to anyone, but that's my first thought when I hear the word. I know we talk about it on this forum more in terms of preparedness, either for wilderness safety or disaster/accident/etc., and the preparedness aspect is what I presume we're talking about.

I think there are a ton of survivalists and bushcrafters that are just doing their thing, without really thinking about it, and there is probably a large bit of overlap. I don't think you have to be alone with a knife in the deep woods to do bushcraft, just like I don't think you have to have a gas mask or a satellite beacon to be a survivalist.

 

[Toucan Oasis]

Bushcraft is what you do after the CR123 batteries, diesel stash, Coleman wicks, toilet paper, RiceAroni and Mountainhouse beef supreme run out.

Just make sure and stash a few of those freeze dried strawberry shortcakes for special occasions.:barf:

 

[milani74]

Some interesting posts. To sum what I believe what these two names signify would be easier to do with an example;

Survivalist: That dude that cut his arm off with a leather men when he was rock climbing and had no other way to survive. The couple that swam for 2 or 3 days? in the ocean after finally being rescued, the Donner party. Etc.

Bushcrafter: Aborigine, African tribesmen, South American Indians, Papa New Guinna native people. Basically if your women run nakied in public and everyone is cool with it, you might be a bushcrafter.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Skammer,

I think you draw your lines artificially. For instance, the Native American's gladly traded 'primitive' tools for steel when they had the chance. Steel gives such an advantage.

You seem to be claiming that if you have any 'modern' gear - you cannot be a Bushcrafter. Define modern? Pre-steel? Pre-Bronze?

It seems any delineation you make is arbitrary. Why do you allow Lundin a Mora when Laminated Steel is a recent invention (in human history)?

The reality for me is this. Ray Mears, and guys like him, know more about living comfortably with very little that so many more that to simply dismiss them as being faux because they use a little nylon here and there seems odd at best, silly at worst.

I have watched Ray make fire with just flint - he CAN do it, it does not mean that for his show the average person will even try it. It is HARD and takes much practice to know what you are doing. His shows are about teaching people the skills to make their wilderness time enjoyable, not about turning everyone into cave men.

Besides, give Cave men a knife and see how many would give it back to you because their flint shards are more 'authentic'.

TF

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

I hate these conversations. No offense.

They're the same thing. They are about accomplishing the same goal. They even incorporate much of the same skills.

The differences are only superficial, one being a broad term used to encompass a wide array of techniques--the other a specific name given to a skillset within that broad spectrum.

It's all survival. It just uses different tools. How handy would it be for a person who lives in New York city to know how to make a cup from Birch Bark? (that information is useless for even me, I haven't seen but four Birch trees in my entire life...and three of them were planted.)

A tent serves the same purpose as a handbuilt a-frame, wikkiup, or cabin.
A steel knife serves the same purpose as a chert or flint or obsidian spall.
Para cord serves the same purpose as hand twisted cordage.
Water bottles, Nalgenes, etc serve the same purpose as water skins.
The latest gore-tex, synthetic material, uber coat serves the same purpose as the old Hudson Bay Capote, Buckskin coat, or Buffalo hide.

Evolution of tools is a product of being human, it began happening the very second the guy with the big forehead thought: "there's gotta be an easier way to get food".

It's all the same thing, it just uses current tools. In 100 years para cord and nylon hammocks will be "antique". Will people still be having this conversation?

You guys are arguing over two sides of the same coin. It's the same as asking: Which one is more vital to the area of a rectangle: the length or the width?


If you want to discuss the terms correctly, perhaps you should be discussing PRIMITIVE VS MODERN.

And even then, you're opening up a whole new can of worms...because at one point our primitive was considered "modern" and "cutting edge".

Just .02


Skammer>>

Where you at, location-wise?

 

[hollowdweller]

So here is the topic. The term bushcraft often gets imbued with a sort of spiritualism to it. Nature is posed in a favorable light, nature the provider and man in harmony with it. The term survivalism often gets imbued with a sort of aggressive antagonism. Man versus wild, hmm where have I heard that catch phrase before?

I'd like to explore, are they really different from one another. We can look at technicalities, some talk about survivalism being lasting 2 or 4 days to get back to civilization while bushcraft being long term living. However, I firmly don't believe that bushcraft is necessarily any more harmonious or peaceful living. Yes, more skills can be had and one requires those skills, but the person living long term in the bush is not living an easy life either. They are struggling against the elements, struggling for nutrition just like the survival person is.

Then lets get at the issue of what I view as false perceptions about 'nature's bounty'. How sustainable are many parts of the wilds? There was a nice document put up not long ago, a CBC piece on traditional aboriginal families living in Quebec using what now became part of the James Bay reservoir. Anyhow, the documentary detailed how the family lived off the land, several hundred acres, by hunting and gathering practices. What struck me was that part of the practice was to let the land go fallow after a couple of years to regenerate game. There was a recognition of lack of sustainability on a given, even large one, plot of land with continuous hunting and gathering activities. This concept of resource use, sustainability is rarely counterbalanced with the mindset of 'nature will provide' or 'nature will provide indefinitely'.

In the end, I sometimes get tired of the labels sometimes thrown out at survivalists. As though they are unskilled or moderately skilled and somehow not in tuned with nature. I see the survivalist and the bushcrafters as a more similar mindset while others clearly attempt to delineate them.

What are your thoughts?

I was talking to my friend Maggie this weekend. She has been living in a tent in her yard all summer because she can't keep the bats out of her house. She said when they first built the cabin the coons kept getting in and she finally shot and trapped them all. Then flying squirrels but the bats have been unstoppable so far. So I would rank fighting the animals out of your house as survival.

The Amish are branching out now into other things than farming because their population versus the available land will not sustain them.

 

[tonym]

Well, I am not as deep as some of you folks. It’s quite simple for me.

I view bushcraft as skills you learn to enjoy and work with nature. I am not spiritual at all, but I enjoy getting outdoors with some gear and practicing skills.

I view survival as; oh crap, I got myself into this mess, now I have to use what I know and what I have with me to get out.

Not that I disagree with you folks, I understand what allot of you are saying (despite some big multi syllable words), and it makes sense. I am just a simple guy…

 

[Joezilla]

It is interesting to note that the term “Bushcraft” more or less stemmed from Richard Graves, an Australian that both Mors Kochanski and Ray Mears have learned from. Translate bush into normal American English in some regards, and you get woods. Then check out Beard's book “ Camp -lore and Woodcraft” and you will see many parallels between the skills he demonstrates and those in Grave’s “Bushcraft”.

In the very general state of things, most people associate “Bushcraft” with Ray Mears, a very quiet and down to earth individual. The term“Survivalist” brings ideas of Bear Grylls, this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAJYgvgAewA
and a few others.

You get into the primitive skills circle, and though both words are used, you probably will never hear a flint knapper or a brain tanner refer to it all as practicing survival skills or bushcraft. I have referred to a few past trips as “recreational survival trips” just to amuse myself. I wouldn't call it bushcraft because the focus on the trip wasn't making cordage or really pulling from the land. Does this help or hurt the general question, not really. It does have its merits for pervaying what you like to do in your spare time to the general public, without making you look as odd.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

Didn't George Sears have a book called "Woodcraft", too, Joe?

 

[Don Rearic]

Wal-Mart Woodsmen-These folks use mostly discount/used/outdated gear. They are not in the woods to impress anyone or connect to tree gods. Instead, they are usually found in the woods, at a fishing hole, or off the trail spending time with their families and teaching their kids and friends about the necessary skills of outdoor recreation. Most of them have an expertise that far surpasses any of the other categories, as it comes from experience, not books and gear. Most of these folks tend to be blue-collar. They work hard all week long so they can get up early on Saturday morning and spend the weekend unwinding around a fire with those they hold dear. Also, some of those in the above categories tend to look down upon, and ridicule, this type...mostly out of envy...

I agree with that, every bit of it. But I am more of a survivalist than anything having to do with Wal-Mart. I can't afford Kifaru so I have to go with SpecOps, Maxpedition, etc. Sometimes with ancient ALICE gear, so be it. A lot of the Wal-Mart stuff, mostly Ozark Trails garbage, won't survive car camping very well, let alone anything more adventurous. But I agree with your assessment of people that simply know how to do things because they have actually done it.

 

[Joezilla]

Yep! and Kephart had a "Camping and Woodcraft" book, much thicker.

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

Post expired.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

I wonder how much of 'Survival' people are advertised this way to make a buck. I wonder if Bear came to them and said 'Let's make a show about how to survive in the bush - I can help people.' and the execs said 'LETS MAKE IT EXTREME!!!!!!'.

Danny, I don't think this type of worship is restricted to the far out... I have seen a lot of people buy a cross and a book, and worship it too. I think idol worship is common.

Most people I know worship at the ATM.


TF