Bushcraft the W&SS new age religeon?

[Mannlicher]

way to esoteric and complicated for me. I just live here.

 

[Don Rearic]

way to esoteric and complicated for me. I just live here.

Hey man, Carcano or Schoenauer?

 

[kgd]

I hate these conversations. No offense.

They're the same thing. They are about accomplishing the same goal. They even incorporate much of the same skills.

The differences are only superficial, one being a broad term used to encompass a wide array of techniques--the other a specific name given to a skillset within that broad spectrum.

I agree and this was the basis of the post. It reflects my viewpoint from the outset but I constantly see people referring to "bushcraft does it this way" or "survival necessitates this approach." Its replete throughout the forum and its threads to the extent that knives are categorized as bushcraft or survival as are outdoor clothing, packs etc.

If its is all the same than why do we go out of our way to make such distinctions to the extent that arguments are constantly bursting out - 'thats not a bushcraft knife its a survival blade'...blah blah blah. I've done the same thing now and again in my own postings and responses. Then later I wonder where I picked up such an attitude. Kind of like when you use a word, mostly because you've heard it in many sentences, but then you finally look it up in a dictionary and find out that for the most part you have been using it out of context or at the edge of the current cultural manifestation of the definition rather than the historical breadth of the word.

Definitions are powerful in themselves. They convey history, meaning, cultural forces. I wanted to explore the terms Bushcrafter and Survivalist. So far I like what I'm reading!

 

[bkduckworth]

This is an interesting thread to say the least!

I've always had a tendency to be more of a "lumper" than a "splitter", so I'll say this (and its already been said).

I think for most folks, “bushcraft” (or woodcraft) is just a set of skills. It’s not a new age spiritual thing, its just a set of skills. Some people make it into more, but to me the act of being in God's creation is always spiritual (even if I sleep in a hammock, under a tarp, or even in a bed!).

I would say that a high percentage of people that get into “bushcraft” are looking for survival skills.

Survival can mean different things. To some people survival is stocking a pantry and keeping extra batteries. To others it means getting out of the woods or in from the sea in one piece. Of course it can mean both of these as well as apply to countless other situations.

It pains me to see folks with such similar interests be so quick to divide into different groups (I'm not saying this is the case in this forum, but more out of this forum). But it seems to happen in just about any recreational activity. Take a look at gun owners (AR crowd vs bolt crowd) or motorcycle riders (Harley owners vs Jap cruiser owners).

Anyway, I've rambled for long enough to confuse myself, but I'll say this to end.

Instead of being so quick to point out the few things that make us different, why don't we all try to focus on the things we have in common?

Brandon:thumbup:

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

Post expired.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Whether we see ourselves as bushcrafters or survivalists, we rely on the same sets of skills and equipment. The differences come more in the degree of planning or surprise, not so much in our abilities or interests.

 

[Bushman5]

we all walk the same earth.


nuff said.

 

[Quirt]

To piggy back onto Doug's categorizations...there is one more group and perhaps one of the largest of them all...

Gear Goobers are those of us who just buy and collect gear. Can't miss 'em cuz every few months they have another new "fav" knife. They are smitten by just the mere collection of "wilderness stuff" never putting themselves or their gear to the test. They may rarely-to-occasionally venture out for an overnight or two and play with their stuff. Gear Goobers spend countless hours on chat forum's "talking" about their possessions and discussing the fine nuances of each piece of gear but really never have put themselves in a place where they can really learn to use their gear and master any competence using it within the confinds of what they want to accomplish (i.e. bushcraft, primative camping, survival et al). Rarely do they put themselves "out there" for a test in a real or simulated bushcraft, survival or extented wilderness experinence...if they did they'd see the folly of their ways, blame it on the gear and pack up and leave...only to buy new "more better" gear thinking this will solve all their problems. We see this all the time with firearms...a gear junky buys a pistol, takes it too the rock pit, can't hit squat, trades it for another pistol which is "jams" all the time, so they trade it for 'nuther...etc. Yep, Gear Goobers generally are either "intentionally" incompetent or are "unconsciously" incompetent. But they've got a pick-up full of really cool gear - they just don't know how to really use it to it or themselves to their full potential.

These folks are also usually habitual gear tinkers...they never land on a set of reliable gear that is bombproof and they could use in the middle of the night from muscle memory without the aid of light...instead they are constantly tinkering, trading or buying gear. They think the "next" piece of high end kit is going to get them to a higher level.

I learned a long time ago...gear, especially good gear, will get you 10% of the way to your objectives but the remaining 90% is all based upon an individual or groups knowledge, skill, training, and behavior.

I've got nuth'n against gear or the collection of gear...the good Lord knows I've got plenty. But knives are created by hammered steel is tempered by fire and pounding until it forms a useful and suitable shape. Regardless of what we are, where we place ourselves in this hierarchy (if you can call it that) of categories....if we're going to achieve any sibilance of success in acheiving our individual or collective goals then we've got to go and put ourselves to the test...testing and trying ourselves in the fire and being pounded into shape! That means taking our choices of gear, and collection of knowledge and training and go out and test drive ourselves in realistic conditions.

 

[kgd]

To piggy back onto Doug's categorizations...there is one more group and perhaps the largest of them all...

Gear Goobers are those who just buy and collect gear. Their mantra is he who dies with the most toy's wins. Every few months they have another new "fav" knife. They are smitten by having possessions and really never put their gear to the test. They rarely to occasionally venture out for an overnight or two and play with their stuff. Gear Goobers spend countless hours on chat forum's "talking" about how magnificiant they are and discussing their possessions but really never have put themselves or their gear to the test.

These folks are habitual gear tinkers...they never land on a set of reliable gear that is bombproof and they could use in the middle of the night from muscle memory without the aid of light...instead they are constantly tinkering, trading or buying gear. They think the "next" piece of high end kit is going to get them to a higher level.

I learned a long time ago...gear, especially good gear, will get you 10% of the way to your objectives but the remaining 90% is all based upon an individual or groups knowledge, skill and behavior.

Well Quirt, most of us are gear goobers by nature. I have plenty of knives, but not nearly the mountains of metal that some have. As for knives, well I have for awhile now viewed them as something apart from just tools. They are useful art and usually bought in earnest.

Making the critique that folks who accumulate gear never use them is a bit harsh and not really called for. I mean, most often people buy gear and test them. Some choose to move onto something better or like having a variety of option. Shelters: is having a tent, a tarp and a hammock redundant or just reflecting somebody who likes doing different things at different times? Maybe building muscle memory of using the same gear always is just as stagnating as using a variety of gears. Like building the same kind of shelter over and over again. Yeah maybe it works well. Maybe its better to build different types of shelters and learn from the process.

I hate to call gear gobbers folks who lack in skills. First, they usually took the time to know what is up with the new stuff and made some estimation on perceived performance advantage over what they have. Second, they usually take the time to play with their toys when they get them. I have set up dozens and dozens of different tents and I think that kind of thing builds up an experience base better than somebody who just only set up one tent their whole life. Similarly, by using dozens and dozens of different knives, I have gotten a much better picture of what I like and what doesn't work for me. I call this learning.

Procurement of outdoor stuff is so often criticized as the antithesis of skills building. The 'less is more' attitude, like bushcraft vs. survivalism is one of gradations. More equipment to handle a versatility of situations or less carefully chosen equipment for their proven effectivness. You don't necessarily have to be more skilled to chose the later. You don't necessarily lack skills by being openly varied in your reliance on gear and technology. Assuming technology will safe your buns in a pinch is rarely a good strategy. However, having gear that can save your buns in a pinch also isn't poor strategy either

 

[udtjim]

In the way Survival and Bush/woods craft are used here, I agree there is not much difference. But in the real world, How much of the earths surface is woods/bush? In the remainder of locations, survival could certainly be much different.

That said, the more you know about all kinds of survival, the better off you are. I don't mean to argue and split hairs.

 

[Bushman5]

To piggy back onto Doug's categorizations...there is one more group and perhaps the largest of them all...

Gear Goobers are those who just buy and collect gear. Their mantra is he who dies with the most toy's wins. Every few months they have another new "fav" knife. They are smitten by having possessions and really never put their gear to the test. They rarely-to-occasionally venture out for an overnight or two and play with their stuff. Gear Goobers spend countless hours on chat forum's "talking" about their possessions and discussing the fine nuances of each piece of gear but really never have put themselves or their gear to the test. If they really put themselves "out there" for a test in a real or simulated bushcraft, survival or extented wilderness experinence they'd see the folly of their ways.

These folks are habitual gear tinkers...they never land on a set of reliable gear that is bombproof and they could use in the middle of the night from muscle memory without the aid of light...instead they are constantly tinkering, trading or buying gear. They think the "next" piece of high end kit is going to get them to a higher level.

I learned a long time ago...gear, especially good gear, will get you 10% of the way to your objectives but the remaining 90% is all based upon an individual or groups knowledge, skill training, and behavior.

wrong.



bit of a generalization yes? ALL of us love buying new gear and tinkering with it, or making our own, or buying new knives every week. A lot of that gear is bombproof and reliable and IS used under duress. I owns ton of bombproof gear, all of it is used frequently and reliably, why limit yourself to one set of gear for the rest of your life?< frigging boring....I like variety. I like the fact that i own so many knives that i can use a different knife every hour or a different knife for each cutting task. No we don't think that the next piece of gear is going to get us to a higher level. I buy gear because i enjoy buying gear, then taking it out into the woods and putting it thru hell, just to see how it performs. Hell, i carried 45 lbs of knives/choppers/axes/'hawks into the woods yesterday, just to have fun and test them out. I go out in the woods all the time, night time, winter, fall, extended trips, day trips, I still rely on my knowledge, and NOT the gear, the GEAR is simply GRAVY on the skill set. I like gravy. No follys found here..


just saying.......dont be thinking people on internet forums with lots of gear have no skills. The web is simply a place to hang out and discuss said gear, compare notes so to speak, I spend my evenings on here because i'm up late and i enjoy it. I enjoy sharing my experiences with gear used in the field, so that others may find a piece of gear they like. The first thing i do when i get back from a hike or trip is drop my gear on the floor, grab a sixpack of beer and log onto BF to share the experience.

not a personal attack, just an opinion.

 

[kgd]

wrong.



bit of a generalization yes? ALL of us love buying new gear and tinkering with it, or making our own, or buying new knives every week. A lot of that gear is bombproof and reliable and IS used under duress. No we don't think that the next piece of gear is going to get us to a higher level. I buy gear because i enjoy buying gear, then taking it out into the woods and putting it thru hell, just to see how it performs. I go out in the woods all the time, nightime, winter, fall, extended trips, day trips, I still rely on my knowledge, and NOT the gear, the GEAR is simply GRAVY on the skill set. No follys found here..


just saying.......dont be thinking people on internet forums with lots of gear have no skills. The web is simply a place to hang out and discuss said gear, compare notes so to speak, I spend my evenings on here because i'm up late and i enjoy it.

not a personal attack, just an opinion.

Holy crap - we've had a mind meld and seen eye to eye - probably first time in a month

 

[kgd]

In the way Survival and Bush/woods craft are used here, I agree there is not much difference. But in the real world, How much of the earths surface is woods/bush? In the remainder of locations, survival could certainly be much different.

That said, the more you know about all kinds of survival, the better off you are. I don't mean to argue and split hairs.

Good point Udtijim. There are certainly things that aren't quite as emphasized in what we traditionally look to as bushcraft. For example, trauma and first aid approaches tend to be much less covered when looking at topics covered under bushcraft. There are sometimes references to medicinal plants and their utility, but these this is a very different mindset to acute damage control that survivalism first aid focuses on. Arguably, the top is turned the other way too. Survivalism first aid gets you through the trauma but doesn't necessarily go into chronic care needs - although it can.

 

[Don Rearic]

Gear Goober?

I don't really care what knife I have if I get stranded or injured in the woods. I do appreciate different things, however. But I really don't give a damn if I end up with a folding knife, a "inferior" hollow handle knife or one of the excellent RATs I own. I don't care which it is. Human beings were surviving on this planet long before Busse, Cold Steel or Moras were around.

ALL of them will work. I just bought a Kabar because I like Kabars. Guess what? If that is what I have with me when something goes wrong, I'm not going to fail because I have a Kabar or don't have some mythical talisman that passed the bladeforums stink test.

I have never owned a Mora. I love the Mora threads, for my money, the guys that are packing them are probably the ones most of the neophytes should be listening to because I bet they are doing instead of just blabbing. That's why you won't catch me in a Mora thread badmouthing the knives or the people that use them. We're kindred spirits.

 

[abo4ster]

Arrgggg!!! Can't believe I am jumping into this thread. Here are some thoughts ~ my opinion of course...


Whilst we may parse the differences here, the bottom line is staying alive.


> Survival is a short-term scenario. Statistically, food is usually not an issue.

> Primitive Living is a long-term committment. There is no scenario or situation to get out of because you are already home.

> Bushcraft is the practice of primitive skills. Those primitive skills could be used in Primitive Living OR Survival. And if you use a steel knife to carve a notch in the hearthboard for your bow drill and you start a bow drill fire with your shoestring, it is still Bushcraft (a primitive skill).

> Primitive Primitive. A term I believe coined by the McPhersons whereas you do a primitive skill with primitive tools. Example: you make fire with the bow drill from which you carved the notch with a piece of chert and you made your cordage from natural materials. i.e., every aspect of a skill is completed without modern material.

> Modern Survival Skills should be learned by the newbie first (match, lighter, emergency shelter, etc.). However, primitive skills (bushcraft) are where modern survival skills originated and knowing both is empowering.

> Bushcraft and Primitive Living are implied to be the same thing in this thread over and over. I believe you can practice Bushcraft without Primitive Living.

Peace, Abo

 

[cssims]

See sig..if you don't agree with the "bush" part of the word, just replace it with "wood".

abo4ster I agree with what you are saying.

On a side note, Robert E. Howard wrote a really good Conan story titled: "Beyond the Black River" that referred to "Woodsman" and "Woodcraft" who, if memory serves, were basically scouts for a fort that was built on the edge of the "wilderness". They had to fight off "Picts" who were basically your native peoples trying to turn back the people living in the fort, encroaching on their native lands.

I see Bushcraft/woodcraft/primitive skills as the same. Knowing how to use whats found in nature. Survival/survivalism is in my opinion is when one is put in a situation that is far far out of the norm. Shipwreck/carwreck/injured/weather(flood, earthquake, fire, etc.) anything that puts you in a "situation". Living on a deserted island by choice is not survival, where as ending up there like the Swiss Family Robinson is survival. The fact that you know how to build a shelter, light a fire, is craft, a skill. Survival training is being taught how to get out of a bad situation.(SERE) At the heart of Survival training is the skills to help you get out of the situation you find yourself in.

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Bushman5]

I'm a Primitive/Modern/Survivalist/Bushcrafter/GearGoober/woodswalker/MilitaryGear/Knife&Ax all round nutter! I dont follow or worship anything but the almighty BEER & BBQ! put that in yer pipe and smoke it.

YAR!

 

[Diomedes Industries]

I edited my reply. Evidently I wrote too literal. My intention was more at 'metonymy of the subject', rather than the apparent. I might have been too close to the edge on the forum rules with this one.

To be clear Danny - you were not too close for me. I want you to know I GOT your reply - I was trying just to piggy back on it.

Sorry if it seemed like my feathers were ruffled - they were not - and I thought your reply was meaningful.

TF

 

[cssims]

I'm a Primitive/Modern/Survivalist/Bushcrafter/GearGoober/woodswalker/MilitaryGear/Knife&Ax all round nutter! I dont follow or worship anything but the almighty BEER & BBQ! put that in yer pipe and smoke it.

YAR!

And a Pirate...

 

[kgd]

Sorry if it seemed like my feathers were ruffled - they were not - and I thought your reply was meaningful.

A philosopher that can ruffle his feathers. You must have one heck of a bird brain Tal