Bushcraft the W&SS new age religeon?

[Esav Benyamin]

What kind of bird would a philosopher be?

Athena's owl ...

 

[dougo83]

I didn't

Well then...that only leaves one place for ya...enjoy :thumbup:

 

[midnight flyer]

These are different kinds of threads that present themselves that seem to require all to tread lightly, no matter what the forum is about. This seems to be one of them. I have read a lot of different opinions, and my personal experiences don't seem to fit in any of the slots most have aligned themselves to...

I started camping as a kid in Boy Scouts around '68. Had a great Scoutmaster, and he loved to camp and just get out and explore things. He seemed really old to me then, but in reality he was probably about 40. He grew up on a farm, and had been through the jungle survival courses as he was a two tour guy in Vietnam.

He was like Daniel Boone, though. No heavy reliance on equipment, and he really loved the outdoors. We didn't call what he and his fellow Scoutmasters (and volunteer fathers) taught us 'bushcraft" or "survival skills". We learned "forestry skills" and "woodcraft". We learned all manner of knots, how to make a fires (never, ever did I master the bow drill, but I could also do it with my bug inspecting magnifier) with one cardboard match, which local plants were edible, how to stay dry, how to protect your equipment and such.

Most of all he taught us to be aware of our surroundings. We were relaxed and absolutely enjoyed ourselves to no end. He told us that if we learned basic woodcraft skills, then we would be OK if we kept our wits about us and practiced what we learned "if we got into trouble".

He loved reading us stories of lost hunters, plane crash survivors, flood and hurricane victims that survived until rescue, etc., that kept their heads on straight and worked through their situations.

He never delineated any of the skills we were learning, even though we went a day and a half without supplied food once to get a merit badge. Our woodcraft/forestry skills were tested as we gathered dandelions and wild onions to cook and eat (started the fire with a magnifying glass), ate pecans (in season), and other things that we found. We found other things that we could have eaten as well like frogs and and grass snakes, but we were too squeamish. He felt bad for us and gave us MREs to split three ways a pack that night. Along the way we marked our trails with rock piles that had arrows arranged to show our path to our "rescuers". At the campfire that night we were in heaven. I was 12, and I felt like I could survive in the amazon with my Boy Scout knife.

At the end of our 36 hours, we each had to tie bowlines, half hitches and square knots to simulate a rescue attempt being made for us. We each took our best shot at using our equipment, clothes, and the rocks and sticks around to make a signal that could be seen from the air. A major in the Army, we held his opinion high, and he was the judge of our signal attempts. In the end, with a little teasing of our efforts, he decided we all would have been rescued.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't understand the difference in the "survival" or "bushcraft" groups or the need to make one. If you are good in the woods and understand that environment, your choice of gear and methods should be just your own.

After all, isn't learning to set traps, make fires with primitive tools, learning what to eat and leave alone and basic first aid for bushcrafters the same as it is to survivalists? Isn't the goal of both to make it through the day in the best way possible with he gear on hand? So what if someone carries more or less gear than the other guy, or more expensive or cheaper gear than someone else.

Learning good bushcraft and "survival skills" are two essential components to enjoying camping and hiking in a resonsible way. I don't see the difference in the two.

As always... just my 0.02.

Robert

 

[kgd]

These are different kinds of threads that present themselves that seem to require all to tread lightly, no matter what the forum is about. This seems to be one of them.

Thanks Roberts. That was a good post. I personally view this thread as a bit of a technical note for future citations. One little trick that I've learned in my career as a scientist is that it is good to tackle an thorny/controversial issue with a nice little experiment and bit of empirical evidence. Then later on when I'm publishing other papers I can cite this other piece of work to quell or circumvent reviewers from picking up on a technical issue. I've already cited a piece of work that states the case and provides evidence in favor of the issue.

I'll admit a little bit of guilt in using a bit of similar strategy here. I've been building or trying to swing to little avail the idea that survival and bushcraft go hand in hand for a year or so but the topic is often buried in a side issue like describing what is a survival knife or a bushcraft knife when in reality if you follow the gist of the thread there is no such distinction. A knife is a knife and you can use it for either pursuit.

So there is good call to tread softly. It means people are reading the posts and threads and thinking the subject matter through. There is a lot of introspection going on of late. I don't know what happened on Sunday afternoon but everybody started looking deep. Nothing wrong with that and I love how this thread has developed.

Four pages and no real controversies, very few bruised egos. Just a good conversation, more agreement than disagreement on similarities of the two terms and some excellent clarifying statements about definitions and word origins. Heck, I don't even seem to be able to derail all the seriousness with my little jabs and rib pokes

In two years since I've been posting here, I think this has been one of my most fruitful threads yet! Thanks to all who have so constructively contributed, you've made a great couple of days of reading for me!

 

[RescueRiley]

hmmm, I like going out in the woods and doing cool sh*t, call it what you want and so will I. do I consider myself better than anyone? Nope I can learn something from everyone.. Had ultralighters stay with me on my last trip... (almos tlike we where from different worlds) but we hung out laughed had some whisky enjoyed the woods, and exchanged ideas... I see a sil-nylon tarp in my future as a result, and the ultralighter sees a fire steel in his... so go figure..
THere is something spiritual about the woods for me, laugh if you want...but if you believe in a higher power seems to me it'd be just as present by a moss covered brook than in a church..but that's just me....
do I think bushcraft is a path to salvation? nope
bushcraft skills, survival skills..... potatoes pota'toes
go out into the woods, love it and enjoy it.

 

[kgd]

Leave it to an Irishman to talk about God and potatoes in adjoining sentences

 

[dougo83]

Leave it to an Irishman to talk about God and potatoes in adjoining sentences

and whisky

 

[RescueRiley]

dang it Ken..made me spit my beer out right there... Lmao

 

[shunsui]

+1 back in the day it was woodcraft or campcraft. Never heard of bushcraft until I found this forum. Ok I get the Australian lingo, but it sounds like something we did in college on weekends.

 

[Shotgun]

To me survival is the basic skill set that will carry you through. Bushcraft, campcraft, and woodcraft to me is a continuation into more advanced skills. I think a 'survivalist' learns just enough to get by whereas a 'bushcrafter' does the same but through their interests, explores more advanced/different ways of doing things.

Like most things I find it funny how people get so bent out of shape out of differing opinions of this and that. Hell, why don't we continue this by argueing about batoning or chopper knives versus hatchets. If you have a differing opinion of what 'bushcraft' is then I do, great. You're wrong though.

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Joe

It is interesting to note that the term “Bushcraft” more or less stemmed from Richard Graves, an Australian that both Mors Kochanski and Ray Mears have learned from.

The use of the term "Bushcraft" here in Australia pre-dates even Richard Harry Graves

I really don't think we'll ever find out who was the first to use the phrase.



Kind regards
Mick

 

[TedV]

I divide them as follows:

When you prepare for survival: All your stuff is yellow/orange and you want to get out of the place where you straned as fast as possible.

When you prepare for bushcraft: All your stuff is green/brown and you want to stay as long as you possibly can whereever you are going to.

 

[Brian Andrews]

Hey Ken,

First, I must admit that I avoided this thread. Next, I read a few posting and then skipped the middle pages. Some of this might have been said, but not perhaps the way I would put it together. So, here are might thoughts.

I'd like to explore, are they really different from one another.

I would have to say absolutely. I think they are things that have two distinctly different goals, but can overlap in their application. But, it requires some definition.

Bushcraft
I see bushcraft as more primitive living or aboriginal living. Man has been living for thousands of years without modern conveniences, and these skills are how they did it. When you could not go to the store and purchase something, how did you get it done with the resources around you? You are correct in that there are not many living that way anymore, but it does not change the definition. People have been living this way longer than they have not been!

Survival
Survival is a broad topic and I think that is why there is a lot of confusion. Here is what I see as a couple definitions of it.

Survival 1
To prepare for political, economic, zombie attacks, or other large scale catastrophe. This generally involves stocking the pantry, storing water, figuring out how supply electricity to your home, or how to live without it. Generally involves guns and ammo from a lot of folks. This area of survival varies greatly in depth of “how bad” things could be. I have a lot of interest in this topic, but I do not think it is what the majority of the folks than hang out are here for.

Survival 2
We all here (hopefully) venture into the wilderness. This definition of “survival” is how to get through an unplanned ordeal in the wilderness. In general, it is statistically shown to be a 72 hour event or less. We can look at that further possibly.

But, this type survival is a goal. It is to stay alive during unplanned circumstances. Period! Do not confuse how you get that done with what primitive living is.

There can be many ways you can choose to meet that goal. Many people begin by looking at survival products on the market. Water chemicals, space blankets, high tech clothing, and how to carry it the lightest, smallest and most efficient manner.

This is a topic that is highly interesting to me. I am always evaluating and re-evaluating my “kit” for what is useful, and what could be better, etc. I think that is an interest to many here as well.

There is a whole lot of stuff that can be learned on just this. Many schools teach this stuff and Cody Lundin has a great book on it called “98.6 Degress: The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive.”

One of the reasons I think this definition of survival and bushcraft are distinctly different is that you can be excellent and knowing clothing products, outdoor gear, etc. Be able to take your “kit” and survive anywhere in the world. It still does not require you to identify a tree, a plant, or a animal behavior. I am not saying that is a bad thing, just stating that you do not need these things to make it through a 72 hour situation.

I am making generalizations here, but even if the progression is not true, the rest of the facts are. But next, a lot of read the phrase “knowledge ways nothing” and perhaps begin to learn some skills that can replace some kit items. Learn more about woods, primitive fire methods, improvised shelters (versus carrying one), etc. You can argue that you are using “bushcraft.” So what?

You are now using primitive living skills to accomplish a goal of “survival.” It does not change the definition of primitive living, or bushcraft. You can as easily take skills from bushcraft to help you accomplish your survival goal as you can take your knowledge of automobiles to salvage parts from a stranded one to help you get through a survival situation. It does not mean you are going to the woods to practice being a mechanic

I hope I am making myself as clear as I see it.

That is my general thoughts on the topic. The rest is going to get extremely philosophical.

However, I firmly don't believe that bushcraft is necessarily any more harmonious or peaceful living. Yes, more skills can be had and one requires those skills, but the person living long term in the bush is not living an easy life either.

It is not about “an easy life.” First, you have to realize that probably nobody here is doing bushcraft or primitive living as a way of life. We are either using it to increase our understanding of the outdoors, as a hobby, or to help accomplish the goal of survival. But, I bet none are using it as a lifestyle, as they would not have a computer

But, I believe the primitive living lifestyle to be more harmonious. It may not be fully true, as you allude to later with your talk about sustainable living. But, if you were to live in that lifestyle you would be really conscious of what provided you clothing, what provided you food, and what provided you shelter. You would do everything you could to make sure those resources continued to live and provide you what you need. If you don’t realize that, you would die rather soon. In general, you would have to be more concerned about the earth, because you know that it takes care of you. I can not say the same for our modern lifestyle.

Our modern lifestyle is more the mentality of “take and take and take.” Everything we do and use has come from the earth in some manner. Whether petroleum has been manipulated to plastic, or massive amounts of energy used to create food, it all had to begin there somehow. We take energy, we take petroleum, we harvest wood, we flatten woodlands to make golf course…..I could go on an on. What was given back to the earth in that process?

If you don’t believe me, then just do me a favor today. As you go through the day, drink your coffee, get dressed, drive your car, eat your meals, think about what it really took to get that stuff to you. Now think about how many times during the day you tried to repay that debt to the earth. Are you even? Or do you just take and take?

While I will agree that primitive living is highly romanticized, I do strongly feel that there is a better sense interaction with the earth. Modern lifestyle isolates us more and more from what we claim to love.

There was a recognition of lack of sustainability on a given, even large one, plot of land with continuous hunting and gathering activities. This concept of resource use, sustainability is rarely counterbalanced with the mindset of 'nature will provide' or 'nature will provide indefinitely'.

I find this highly disturbing. Not because you brought it up, but because you are right. It takes an incredible amount of resources. But again, it has been done for thousands and thousands of years. What has changed?

Cheap energy. Our current lifestyles are possible because we have cheap energy and it can provide for us the things that we need, without having to have the land resources to provide it. It goes back to the “take and take and take” relationship we have with the earth. Energy provides us an incredible amount of things with very limited space. We take as much of it as we can, and we give little or nothing back.

The reason I find it so disturbing is because it does not take rocket science to figure out that is a highly unbalanced relationship. Like any unbalanced relationship, one that can not exist forever. We always like to think that some technological innovation is going to come along and save us. But, my theory is that if it happens, it will just move on to consume some other natural resource, until that one is gone too. It may take decades, centuries, or even longer, but I know that unbalanced relationship will come to end. Mother nature will take care of things, balance them back out, and when that happens, it will be an ugly day for man.

In the end, I sometimes get tired of the labels sometimes thrown out at survivalists. As though they are unskilled or moderately skilled and somehow not in tuned with nature. I see the survivalist and the bushcrafters as a more similar mindset while others clearly attempt to delineate them.

I had no idea people were being labeled. Is that occurring here? I personally do not label people as I do not like it myself. As Dougo’s post proved to me, stereotypes are generalization, and I often don’t fit in any To me, it is all just people. I don’t care what you are into, whether it is hunting, fishing, “survival,” computers, photography, knitting, whatever. There are unskilled, moderately skilled and highly skilled people in each area. It is easy to tell skill level through observation. No need to label the entire group as competent or incompetent

B

 

[Diomedes Industries]

What kind of bird would a philosopher be?

Athena's owl ...

I like to think of myself as a Titanis Walleri:

TF

 

[kgd]

Brian - I hate it when engineers out-ecology me

I have to agree that living with the land makes you appreciate it all the more. Most pagan religeons were based on the earth as provider. Appeals to the gods and spirituality were attempts at petitioning the provider 'can I have another sir'. These were the Gods of life and you needed to understand them in order to survive. Interestingly, the Gods of death arose largely with the agricultural revolution. Technology as it were became the provider. We are more concerned with what happens after we die than what happens while we live. So the question has turned from 'Can I have another sir?' to 'Can you give me some more of that?'

Metaphysics aside, your definition of bushcraft is one I pegged as primitive. Of course, my wife likes to tease me often and call my hobbies my 'mancraft' rather than 'bushcraft'.

 

[midnight flyer]

Hey Ken,
It is not about “an easy life.” First, you have to realize that probably nobody here is doing bushcraft or primitive living as a way of life. We are either using it to increase our understanding of the outdoors, as a hobby, or to help accomplish the goal of survival. But, I bet none are using it as a lifestyle, as they would not have a computer

I wasn't going to bring that up as I thought it might be too controversial. But since you did...... :thumbup:

It is difficult for me to see folks brand themselves with either label of "suvivalist" or "bushcrafter". I admire the skill sets developed by many here, but a weekend or overnight trip doesn't really give much of a feel for either. Just a taste.

You haven't much fear when you know you have your cell phone, you are only 10 miles from your car, or you are staying in or near a patrolled park. You can carry or purify as much water as you need, make a fire with your firesteel so you can make coffee (when the Bic is in the kit bag) and cover yourself with leaves in a debris shelter because you want to see if you can do it. You know you have your tarp, poncho, ground cloth, possibly a tent and sleeping bag at your disposal. These are simply fun challenges that we do to see if we can muster up.

While chopping up the landscape to see if your power knife can take the abuse, you chomp on a power bar that you carry in a $150 mini pack that contains more technical gear than was used to cross the nation 100 years ago.

I never see this discussed on this forum, but outside of orientation, food gathering is of utmost importance. It is easier to concentrate on your woods skills if you don't have to trap, fish, shoot, or prepare wild game. Ditto looking for and identifying safe, edible plants in your area.

Life is different on a 48 hour survival trek for us with all of our conveniences and gear than it was for our forefathers that were constantly planning the next days into their futures. If they got lost, couldn't start a fire, couldn't find food or water, they couldn't just walk out a few miles and get in their car. They couldn't hit their cell for a signal or turn on their GPS and wait for rescue.

I say enjoy the woods and forest however you want and drop the labels on who is doing what. Really, are any of us actually doing more than fun exercises anymore when we go out for a few days?

Robert

 

[kgd]

Life is different on a 48 hour survival trek for us with all of our conveniences gear than it was for our forefathers that were constantly planning the next days into their futures. If they got lost, couldn't start a fire, couldn't find food or water, they couldn't just walk out a few miles and get in their car. They couldn't hit their cell for a signal or turn on their GPS and wait for rescue.

Yes and no. Even though we romance or hero-ize the lone woodsman (Eustace Conrad?) who seems to do it all and alone and by themselves, this has always been the exception rather than the rule. Humans are social animals and evolved to live in family clans or groups with the bigger change occuring in the size of their social affiliation in modern times. Even in the hunter-gather days a person simply didn't wander off for years of being alone. They banked on the gathering capabilities and resource stores of their clan as much as we bank on the technologies of our return to civilization. I bet the 72 hr/96hr, 7 d time frame we attribute to survival isn't so far off from the norm that occurred 2 million years ago. In fact predator avoidance probably reduced the alone time we might enjoy.

 

[HikingMano]

Just wanted to say this has been an excellent thread, good one Ken. Great reading, many thoughtful posts. :thumbup:

Don't have much time to comment fully right now, and I think my perspective has more or less been expressed by others already. For convenience, if we go by Brian's definitions (I also look at them as distinct, with Survival as an end and Bushcraft as a means), I'd say I'm focusing on Survival 2 and 1 and working up to Bushcraft/Primitive skills. The goal right now is to complement and expand my knowledge and modern-gear-based skill-set with knowledge and skills in primitive materials and methods. All of it serves the purpose of keeping me alive should I find myself in a bad situation in a natural or man-made environment.

I connect with nature via my senses, so I don't really learn and practice bushcraft to connect with some past or connect with nature. For me, bushcraft isn't spiritual, it's just another tool in the tool box, to be used in anything from setting up a car camp to keeping me alive when all my gear is washed downstream and I'm lost. I guess I would even venture to say that I like learning bushcrafty things because often, the principles can be applied elsewhere (from surviving with modern gear to your normal day to day living). For me it just boils down to acquiring more knowledge and expanding my skill-set. I want the synergistic sum of gear based survival skills and bushcraft/primitive skills because that skill-set will be the most versatile of all :thumbup:.

 

[SouthernCross]

The following quote comes from the dust cover of the 10 bushcraft books by Richard Harry Graves http://tions.net/CA256EA900408BD5/vwWWW/outdoor~03~000

" "Bushcraft" describes the activity of how to make use of natural materials found locally in any area. It includes many of the skills used by primitive man, and to these are added "white man" skills necessary for survival, such as time and direction, and the provision of modern "white man" comforts. The practice of bushcraft develops in an individual a remarkable ability to adapt quickly to a changing environment. Because this is so, the activity is a valuable counter to today's specialisation, and particularly significant in youth training work."




Kind regards
Mick

 

[Brian Andrews]

Brian - I hate it when engineers......

Hey now.......no need for name calling!!!! I thought there was all this talk around here lately about keeping things civil

Seriously, I rarely admit (and never do in public) to being an engineer To bad the secret is out

B