bushcrafter or survival knife... if you only had one?

[daizee]

and support more weight when needed as a step or to pull you up a steep incline or whatnot.

do what??

Why not make a pointy walking stick with your knife?
There's a rock every 6" in New England, I'd never stick a knife in the ground. Weird to me.

That said, I'd pick 5-6" as a versatile size.

 

[SALTY]

All good stuff here - many references and pics to long time favorites of mine. Pre Pro A1, CRK Project 2, SP-10 ... all good stuff that makes me smile.

Survival is different than bushcraft and, perhaps I am confused (happens easy at my age) but this thread seems to try to cover both - which is tough.

My one knife solution is a SAK, a Mora and a large chopper. That's about as one blade as I like to get. Sarcasm aside, it's not easy to do it all with one knife but the old adage is true that you can do small jobs with a big knife, though not well but you cannot hardly so at all big jobs with a little knife.

I do honestly prefer a SAK, a Mora, a BK16, F1 or similar as well as a larger knife. In regards to the latter, I do like my trusty old SP-10 but anymore appreciate the virtues of the Becker BK-4, BK-9 and BK-20 for the larger tasks.

All of that said, and trying (hard as it may be) to get this down to one knife compromises have to be made. I'd give up some chopping power for smaller and lighter and have to come up with the BK-7 or even the stout BK-2 as the compromise. A Busse Basic #7 (another old friend that has served me well) would also do knicely ... as would others that I am not personally familiar with such as the ones I mentioned in this post.

 

[SALTY]

Oh, and surprising though it may seem by its appearance to the unfamiliar or uninitiated, the Becker BK-4 performs many "small knife" tasks fairly well considering its chopping and large knife capabilities.

 

[GREENJACKET]

Again and again survival is given the Rambo survival scenario; the one knife to do it all. All the y tube puts the emphasis on chopping a big log with a knife. Few knives compete well with an axe unless very big, and far bigger than just a "large" heavy knife. For conserving energy then a good survival saw is so much more efficient on logs. Have a good sized Silky and then a medium knife is the perfect complimentary tool.

Knives that can chop, if thats what you like to call it... more like bludgeon, generally can't catch the cut on springy vegetation. They might be long enough but don't cut. Tough growth will give jungle machete's trouble especially if they have the tendency to vibrate when jarring to a stop; most aren't stiff enough. For summer with a lot of high growth, or green growth, I'll take a Skrama over a saw or axe. In fact if an axe isn't require then a Skrama does the big knife bit well as its a cutter. But in all cases, axe, Skrama, or medium utility blade, then a good saw is worth its weight if anything thick needs processing. Its a saw before any big knife for me. Saw and medium knife is the same weight as a biggy knife on its own..

Found this vid, sums up so much of what I think of "a lot of tool that gets no where"; either use a full sized tool or a saw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBvFKXGWK50

 

[22-rimfire]

Again and again survival is given the Rambo survival scenario; the one knife to do it all. All the y tube puts the emphasis on chopping a big log with a knife. Few knives compete well with an axe unless very big, and far bigger than just a "large" heavy knife. For conserving energy then a good survival saw is so much more efficient on logs. Have a good sized Silky and then a medium knife is the perfect complimentary tool.

Knives that can chop, if thats what you like to call it... more like bludgeon, generally can't catch the cut on springy vegetation. They might be long enough but don't cut. Tough growth will give jungle machete's trouble especially if they have the tendency to vibrate when jarring to a stop; most aren't stiff enough. For summer with a lot of high growth, or green growth, I'll take a Skrama over a saw or axe. In fact if an axe isn't require then a Skrama does the big knife bit well as its a cutter. But in all cases, axe, Skrama, or medium utility blade, then a good saw is worth its weight if anything thick needs processing. Its a saw before any big knife for me. Saw and medium knife is the same weight as a biggy knife on its own..

Found this vid, sums up so much of what I think of "a lot of tool that gets no where"; either use a full sized tool or a saw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBvFKXGWK50

I agree that few knives compete well with an axe for serious chopping ability. But most aren't doing that much chopping or it is an irregular use such as cutting a few small trees or de-limbing. The other day my cherry tree lost a limb in a thunderstorm. The biggest diameter was about 3" and my Condor El Salvador latin machete easily cut that big limb up into easy to deal with lengths and quickly. It really impresses me when I use it. Something tells me that I would be very comfortable with a machete over a typical big knife in the woods as long as I have a folder for detailed stuff. For lots of chopping, I would go with one of the shorter stiff Condor machetes such as the Pack Golok or Village Parang. Really like these (bigger thn 10") for chopping but as I said the El Salvador is no slouch in the chopping department and can handle the flexible vegetation very well. Tough really to decide personally.

The BK-7 was mentioned as a in between knife. I agree and that would be about as large as I would go (vs BK-9) for regular use in the woods. I however really like my Blackjack 1-7 (7") although I really wouldn't want to beat it to death. I'd be pretty comfortable with that knife for knife things.

 

[Gaston444]

Again and again survival is given the Rambo survival scenario; the one knife to do it all. All the y tube puts the emphasis on chopping a big log with a knife. Few knives compete well with an axe unless very big, and far bigger than just a "large" heavy knife. ]

It is not with an ax that the knife competes, but a hatchet, and with an 10-11" blade, they are not that far apart that edge finesse will not at least mostly bridge the gap of the hatchet's head weight...

For conserving energy then a good survival saw is so much more efficient on logs. Have a good sized Silky and then a medium knife is the perfect complimentary tool.

I would not agree with the medium knife. It is true the folding saw is super efficient. The medium knife will not de-limb well, will not make tent pegs or a shelter easily, and lacks versatility, with 30% of the chopping power, at 7", vs 70% of the bulk of a 10 incher. "Medium" in knives is not the efficient trade-off it appears to be, but it does do the job in a quite adequate manner if everything goes very well and you are not weakened...

Knives that can chop, if thats what you like to call it... more like bludgeon, ]

A good chopping knife should have a thin edge and chop with finesse. Not all choppers are factory-fresh Busse...

generally can't catch the cut on springy vegetation. They might be long enough but don't cut. ]

Thin-edged ones do.

Tough growth will give jungle machete's trouble especially if they have the tendency to vibrate when jarring to a stop; most aren't stiff enough. ]

This is why machetes lack versatility.

Gaston

 

[GREENJACKET]

Here is my Blackjack Marauder II, sadly no longer in production. Its a knife that can compete with a GB Small Forest Axe. There just aren't many blades this size and power:

Next step down are the Lofty Wiseman, Becker BK4, Kukris and the like. Most if they chop are poor cutters. If they are reground to cut most are on the soft side and hard to keep keen. Generally I just think they are inefficient and for man carry hard to justify. Most are all weight forward and tricky to use other than chop. Absolutely fine as truck choppers if you must. Better to have an efficient saw and small knife.

Then we have the 9-12" big classic knife: Busse, ESEE Junglas, BK9. This category really struggles. Most are made chunky. Not enough to chop, to fat to cut. All too heavy and bulky to do finer tasks well. Pretty poor at everything. Even though I like a Rambo knife I can't find for the life of me a use for them. (Even Rambo's First Blood Lile wasn't a brick, just shame about the sawback).
There are loads of "experts" that rave about these heavy built knives. Well the professional explorers, mountaineers, film makers, and trekkers, don't use them; most go very light weight. Even locals use specialised tools for their environment be that parang, machete or axe and saw. They don't use "survival chunkers". No one wants to carry them.

I do carry a sheath knife be it hunting, bushcraft or combat style. All are cutters first and light weight for their size. Best in a nice neat package. For me 7" is about as big as I want to go though longer is possible, but whatever the case they aren't going to be heavy. They must be keen and sharp to slice and cut.

I've banged on about the Skrama because it does my stiff panga/parang/machete forest work in a neat package. I like my Ben Orford Edan snedding parang because it was made for green forest work too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU-2j1eOLoU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=133Ts86T-R8
Here is a good one on jungle parangs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLICKcij2r8

These catch the cut on springy stuff, but they are not axes. At some point then an axe or saw are just so much superior. Pretending otherwise may be fun but after ten minutes of work the joke wears thin. Justifying carrying one just depends how far I'm going and can I warrant it?

Survival kit is what you have on you at the time, the rest is to use your brains. Again you pack it you carry it. Most of the time, when on foot, I'll go as light weight as I dare.

 

[mec003]

I'm not sure where everyone lives or what their environment is, but for me a larger blade just isn't practical. In a true "survival" situation I would love to have one, but that isn't likely to be the case.

When I hike, I don't justify the potential usefulness of the tool vs the weight of it. Its perfectly fine if others do. I also would likely have the authorities called by someone if they saw me carrying my kukri through the woods in my area. While it is legal to open carry any fixed blade, social stigma would disagree. And it would be quite the hassle everytime out. A small 4 inch blade often goes unnoticed and doesn't raise eyebrows on the trail. Its also more knife than I have ever needed. I often carry a folding saw as could be helpful in an emergency.

For me, this question pure fantasy. Large blades are great, but I simply won't ever find myself with one. There are just too many tradeoffs that I'm not willing to make. I won't criticize anyone who can carry them and enjoys using them.

But not to worry, if my small knife fails me and I should perish in the wild, my wife has been instructed to giveaway my modest knife collection here on bladeforums.

 

[Park Swan]

I'd like to point out that for survival, the duration of your need to rely on basic tools could play a large part in which tools will retain usefulness. A saw which gets dull, bent, broken, or loses teeth won't likely be useful ever again.

 

[GREENJACKET]

I thought someone would bring up the subject of longevity of saws. I have traveled a few parts of the world. Survival is about getting back to civilisation, not staying out in the outback as an alternative lifestyle. Two weeks, or even a month, heck over winter, should be long enough to get to civilisation. A a quality saw, a Silky saw, will last that duration if you know how to use one correctly. If you are that worried carry a spare blade.
This isn't an issue, more trying to find a fault that doesn't really exist.

Good knives can snap.

Kit can get lost.

You could brake both arms!

Survival is what you do in any situation however you find it. There happens to one line of thought that training with good kit is actually self deluding as the downer of not having good kit can encourage giving up. Those that tend to succeed and survive any given mess tend to just get on with it with a bit of sensible thought. A few skills, like first aid skills, light a fire, build a shelter, can help too. In hostile climates then the first three days are critical; water, fire/shelter, and food. Survive long enough to get out or long enough for the cavalry to arrive.

 

[pinnah]

I have been making and using knives for over 25 years and have only gotten into the bushcraft size/style in the last couple years as it's a pretty popular style and since I'm in the woods a lot with my job it seemed like a natural fit. Here's the rub... when I have to pick one knife to take with me, I still end up taking a slightly larger knife (more in the 10" OAL) range, with a full flat or convex grind over scandi as I find it more useful for making more things, but I thought maybe it was just me. So last year I gave one of the survival experts that comes to my unit to teach wilderness survival a knife to evaluate as an unbiased outside subject matter expert, and when I met with him yesterday he had the same critiques I do in favour of a larger "survival" type size in favour of the smaller bushcraft knife as it can chop easier and support more weight when needed as a step or to pull you up a steep incline or whatnot. All that to say is what do most of you prefer and why?

thanks

Just back from a 4 day/3 night trip through a Wilderness Area....

All outdoor recreation is choice, really, and because of that, there's an element of artificiality to all of it. For all the glory and literature hype, mountain climbing is a silly pastime, as is long distance backpacking (e.g., the AT). Both are susceptible of taking themselves far to seriously and are easy targets of ridicule and parody. One thing I find particularly amusing about the climbing and hiking set is how they try to beef up the meaning of their play time with using words that create meaning. Climbers talk about projects or doing some "technical ice work". Some hikers look to establish and improve up on their PR (personal record time) for hikes like runners do. Sort of silly, IMO.

But the same thing is true about the Survival and Bushcraft set. The word "survival" is one of those laughable fake meaning words. It's not like people fall out of the sky and land in hostile jungles (unless you're a combat fighter pilot or Tom Hanks) and into some "survival" situation. Generally speaking, when people are using so-called "survival" skills learned in a survival course they are doing so by choice as a way of being in the out of doors (which is excellent) and conversely, when people land in real backcountry survival situations, they were doing something like hiking, backpacking, climbing, snowshoeing, ATV riding, snowmobiling, fishing, hunting, or skiing.

Now, don't get me wrong. I think so-called survival skills and bushcraft skills are things that all backpackers and climbers should learn, just as I think all "survivalists" and bushcrafters should learn modern backpacking skills (like the use of stoves and leave no trace techniques).

But we shouldn't let the meaning making term "survival" lull us into thinking that "survival" as it is taught and discussed has any real merit. If modern backpackers can (and should) be critiqued for moving through the backcountry in a protective bubble made up of nylon and GoreTex, then the survival and bushcraft set can be critiqued as having become something like the Civil War reenactment arm of the outdoor industry. I mean, it's cool and interesting and fun and all that, but it's not real survival, as witnessed by the 1000s upon 1000s of climbers and backpackers who go deep into the backcountry every year carrying no knife more than a Victorinox Classic and without needing to build a shelter (they have a tent) or start a fire (they have a stove and good clothing).

So, where does this leave us... People should choose a knife well suited to the way they like to play in the woods with an emphasis on the word play. If somebody wants to practice driving a knife into a tree while imagining a bear attacking them well, that's both silly and OK, just as it's equally silly for people to hike 36 hours straight just to say that they set a PR on a section of trail. That is, trying to debate the merits of a survival knife over a bushcraft knife seems not particularly useful to me. Both make perfect sense if you buy into a particular way of playing in the woods.

 

[JamesofArc]

I'd like to point out that for survival, the duration of your need to rely on basic tools could play a large part in which tools will retain usefulness. A saw which gets dull, bent, broken, or loses teeth won't likely be useful ever again.

And the reason I chose the SP10 over many others such as a machete or a thinner knife like the BK9. You start chopping down small trees and debranching them and start feeling all the shock that goes into these blades you realize that after a day or two that your thin blade may just stress out and crack and break.

This is why I like to get to know my knife before I put it with my packing gear so I can see that it is seasoned and I trust it. Also why I chose the SP10 because over all I trust it more. I would not open up the box and put it in my load out but after using it on short trips and around the house and I feel I can trust it to not break prematurely then it goes into my gear pile. I would like to try a Condor Golok but there is just too much steel to stress out. I would chose an axe every time over a machete because there is a lot of surface to crack and chip on a machete where if my axe breaks I can make a new handle with the head. the more weight you have lapping over during a chop is a lot of weight stressing the tool.

Until you get to the axe and hatchet level to me the SP10 is as good as it gets, just standard good old 1095 which is want a good knife should be made of, not to hard and not too brittle while retaining a good edge.

 

[GREENJACKET]

Pinnah, I complete agree.

I do think some styles are pushed as the be all and end all when its not exactly true. Over hyped, when in truth they are not ideal for quite a lot of things suggested. There has been a bit of a backlash against hype over contents. Even on y tube some knowledgeable folk are getting the message through; though there remains some endless drivel.
I would never suggest people not going out into the outdoors and enjoying themselves, but I do worry that many "buy all the kit" and think they can just go. Better to build up a bit of knowledge and work out a few practical skills first. As a kid thats what I used to do, but many grownups just go with very little experience at all because they were never able to get to the outdoors when kids. A big issue is that some of the kit can bite back bad. Some of the easy access places anyone can go need a bit of respect too. I just say don't jump before you can run and practice some skills in the safety of your backyard first.

With knives there is a lot of fashion involved. Thankfully knives are a pretty basic tool and with present manufacturing its rare for complete rubbish. For a lot there are efficient ones and some not so.

Finally, when I see commercial foresters they use heavy equipment and chainsaws. I do for any real work. Everything else is playing, and it is fun.

Be safe.

 

[22-rimfire]

Just back from a 4 day/3 night trip through a Wilderness Area....

<snip>

So, where does this leave us... People should choose a knife well suited to the way they like to play in the woods with an emphasis on the word play. If somebody wants to practice driving a knife into a tree while imagining a bear attacking them well, that's both silly and OK, just as it's equally silly for people to hike 36 hours straight just to say that they set a PR on a section of trail. That is, trying to debate the merits of a survival knife over a bushcraft knife seems not particularly useful to me. Both make perfect sense if you buy into a particular way of playing in the woods.

Gee wizz, you are taking all the fun out of it. I however like my little protective bubble. We survive with our brains and any bubble I can provide is a good thing. Why would I want to survive in the woods anyway? ...for the fun of it, of course, and then it really isn't surviving other than you expect to walk or drive out eventually to the security and comfort of your home. I also agree about discussing or arguing the merits of a bushcraft blade versus some other shape is a bit silly. If you are handy and confident with a knife, that is the one to use for bushcraft, survival, woodsman ship, and so forth. The truth be known that the lowly SAK or traditional slip joint is about all you need, but that would put a lot of knife makers out of business.

Most of us seldom really need to chop anything other than for the fun of it. Discussing the merits of an axe (large or small) vs hatchet vs big knife vs smaller knife is fun. I chopped up a big branch that fell into my yard with a machete. Worked just fine and I didn't have to dig out a beastly thick blade to do it. I could have cranked up my chain saw, but I chopped it up. Noticed there are a couple more limbs hanging now and looks like some chopping is in my future. Think I'll chop the next big one up with my tomahawk and see how it does. To date, I have only used it to point some tomato stakes for my yard. Sounds fun!

 

[GREENJACKET]

Survival might be getting some gardening done before the wife gets back.
This Ash had to go. Did as much as I could with the Skrama.... because it was fun:

This bush too:

No edges were hurt in the filming of this. Its a hobby and debate is part of it.
(Anyhow being in a survival situation isn't very nice... uncomfortable, hungry and hard graft... and sometimes it hurts).
My yellow Lab the other month, out bitch sniffing in the village near the pub, got hit by a car. He got himself back home 300m, through the cat flap, with a broken back leg. He is 84 dog years old and didn't even have a penknife on him. £1,500 vet bill later, and a pinned steel insert, and he is fine; possibly able to get his leg over one more time... in his dreams, but I wouldn't put it past him.

 

[The cow]

It is a tough and very personal choice. If I could only have one it'd be a 10 inch chopper because it does the heavy work much more efficiently. In my experience, that is the bulk of my woodswork while fine tasks aren't all that common for me and fine tasks can be easily improvised.

 

[pinnah]

Gee wizz, you are taking all the fun out of it. I however like my little protective bubble. We survive with our brains and any bubble I can provide is a good thing. Why would I want to survive in the woods anyway? ...for the fun of it, of course, and then it really isn't surviving other than you expect to walk or drive out eventually to the security and comfort of your home. I also agree about discussing or arguing the merits of a bushcraft blade versus some other shape is a bit silly. If you are handy and confident with a knife, that is the one to use for bushcraft, survival, woodsman ship, and so forth. The truth be known that the lowly SAK or traditional slip joint is about all you need, but that would put a lot of knife makers out of business.

Most of us seldom really need to chop anything other than for the fun of it. Discussing the merits of an axe (large or small) vs hatchet vs big knife vs smaller knife is fun. I chopped up a big branch that fell into my yard with a machete. Worked just fine and I didn't have to dig out a beastly thick blade to do it. I could have cranked up my chain saw, but I chopped it up. Noticed there are a couple more limbs hanging now and looks like some chopping is in my future. Think I'll chop the next big one up with my tomahawk and see how it does. To date, I have only used it to point some tomato stakes for my yard. Sounds fun!

I'm actually advocating that we see all the options as "fun" or "play". Calling something "survival" doesn't make it actually survival. Witness all those climbers and hikers surviving just fine with their lowly SAKs.

"Survival" vs "bushcraft" is like choosing between country and western.

 

[gadunz]

Svord hunter

 

[Park Swan]

I thought someone would bring up the subject of longevity of saws. I have traveled a few parts of the world. Survival is about getting back to civilisation, not staying out in the outback as an alternative lifestyle. Two weeks, or even a month, heck over winter, should be long enough to get to civilisation. A a quality saw, a Silky saw, will last that duration if you know how to use one correctly. If you are that worried carry a spare blade.
This isn't an issue, more trying to find a fault that doesn't really exist.

Good knives can snap.

Kit can get lost.

You could brake both arms!

Survival is what you do in any situation however you find it. There happens to one line of thought that training with good kit is actually self deluding as the downer of not having good kit can encourage giving up. Those that tend to succeed and survive any given mess tend to just get on with it with a bit of sensible thought. A few skills, like first aid skills, light a fire, build a shelter, can help too. In hostile climates then the first three days are critical; water, fire/shelter, and food. Survive long enough to get out or long enough for the cavalry to arrive.

Very true, as I said originally the most important factors are duration and location. Of course, any survival situation is not an ideal situation. Still, I personally think saws are less ideal for most things, which is why I carry them in the forest rarely. Their relative delicacy compared with am axe or big knife is just one part of that.

 

[Park Swan]

:thumbup: