Busse 'lost' in the mail... Vent thread. :(

Some here have stated over and over that it's the sellers responsibility to deliver the item. Normally I would agree except for one thing. Did the buyer agree to accept responsibility if
the knife is lost? I often see this stipulation in the conditions for the sale. IMHO, if the buyer agreed to this, the seller is off the hook.
 
UffDa said:
Some here have stated over and over that it's the sellers responsibility to deliver the item. Normally I would agree except for one thing. Did the buyer agree to accept responsibility if
the knife is lost? I often see this stipulation in the conditions for the sale. IMHO, if the buyer agreed to this, the seller is off the hook.
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No, he is not, and he would be foolish to believe it.

If the seller agrees to send a knife to a foreign country, and the buyer agrees to accept responsibility if it fails to arrive, that buyer can still go to PayPal and PayPal will refund his money. PayPal is not interested in agreements, only in proof of delivery.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
No, he is not, and he would be foolish to believe it.

If the seller agrees to send a knife to a foreign country, and the buyer agrees to accept responsibility if it fails to arrive, that buyer can still go to PayPal and PayPal will refund his money. PayPal is not interested in agreements, only in proof of delivery.
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That is true, but I am thinking in terms of two reasonable people making a deal. This thread just gives me more credence to my decision to sell in the USA only.
If that is frustrating to our friends in Australia or Canada, all I can say is sorry, that's the way it is.

Does anyone remember the thread about the Australian who ordered a knife from SRKW? It was delivered to the wrong person by a clerk at the post office. The post office
claimed no responsibility. Basically, the buyer was SOL except the Swamp Rat sent him another knife. (This was a few years ago. The details may not be 100%, but close.)
 
Esav Benyamin said:
No, he is not, and he would be foolish to believe it.

If the seller agrees to send a knife to a foreign country, and the buyer agrees to accept responsibility if it fails to arrive, that buyer can still go to PayPal and PayPal will refund his money. PayPal is not interested in agreements, only in proof of delivery.
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I have thought about this and have always put the stipulation that the buyer is responsible once the knife leaves the US. I have had good international transactions so far but there is nothing to guarantee they all will be. I guess now I will change it to Paypal gift only for sales outside the US.
 
Major Kong said:
I have thought about this and have always put the stipulation that the buyer is responsible once the knife leaves the US. I have had good international transactions so far but there is nothing to guarantee they all will be. I guess now I will change it to Paypal gift only for sales outside the US.
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How about international postal money orders? That should be a safe way to pay for both parties.
 
UffDa said:
How about international postal money orders? That should be a safe way to pay for both parties.
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.... they can cost the seller $$s to deposit. I have done an international draft from my bank (costs $15A) and can be deposited in a US account just like a bank cheque (as it is actually a US cheque drawn on a US bank) with no additional costs to the seller.

Andy
 
I personally always get insurance on high ticket items like this I ship. That way if it gets lost your only out maybe $50 because you should get reimburse for the item. How is the seller's feedback? Has he had a problem with this before? Always check the feedback of individuals you buy from on bladeforums. I am so sorry for your loss man. I wish I had a never to give you to make it worth it. Don't give up like everyone is saying. Keep calling.
 
Major Kong said:
I guess now I will change it to Paypal gift only for sales outside the US.
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Thats is for gift, not a sale. Read PP rules. Its dishonest, and they can shut your account down for it.

UffDa said:
How about international postal money orders? That should be a safe way to pay for both parties.
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Not for the buyer if it gets lost, and the seller didn't insure it.

Why can't people just ship it like they should, and insure it like they should. If the seller don't want to insure it then its his loss. Insurance is for the seller, not the buyer.

I wish all would read the links Esav put up. Its really pretty simple if you just read how to do it.
 
Ken44 said:
Thats is for gift, not a sale. Read PP rules. Its dishonest, and they can shut your account down for it.
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Thanks, I've read and understand the Paypal rules.

I've never asked for the gift option but if I did and my Paypal account got shut down for it life would go on and I'd just quit accepting Paypal.
 
I once sent a knife to South Africa that got lost in transit for several months before the package finally came back to me.
 
Thomas Linton said:
The Uniform Commercial Code, as enacted in all fifty states, provides that the seller bears the risk of loss of goods in transit unless the buyer expressly agrees otherwise.

As noted, insurance protects the seller against the risk placed on him by law. Who pays for the insurance is a term of the contract of sale, as can be a shifting of the risk of loss to the buyer.
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I believe you've got that backwards. My understanding of UCC § 2-509 is that in shipping contracts, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers the goods to the carrier. And sales contracts are assumed to be shipping contracts unless a destination contract is explicitly specified. So the seller's responsibility ends when the knife is mailed, and it's the buyer who bears the risk of nondelivery, unless it is agreed otherwise.
 
JohnTheTexican said:
So the seller's responsibility ends when the knife is mailed, and it's the buyer who bears the risk of nondelivery, unless it is agreed otherwise.
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I believe you've got that backwards. Bladeforums policy is otherwise. The buyer is responsible for getting the payment to the seller and the seller is responsible for getting the item to the buyer
 
If using Paypal, the seller is on the hook to insure that the package is delivered to the buyer. Regargless of whether insurance is purchased or not. Therefore insurance is not to protect the buyer, but to protect the seller. Using Signature Confirmation is meaningless if it is lost or stolen along the way. The seller is only off the hook if it is confirmed to be delivered and signed for. I learned this the hard way. Used SC for a Busse sale because the buyer didn't want to pay for insurance. Made it to a USPS office in NYC, then completely disappeared. Weeks of calls, searching, escalation all the way up the USPS chain and got the same answer. Didn't make it to the buyer so PP refunded the buyer from my funds. No insurance so I as the seller was out of luck. Sorry Charlie.
 
Take a look at the USPS rates for mailing a package to Australia. Insurance is not available for a 1st class parcel. You could send 2 pounds registered mail for about $30 and hope for the best.
A medium priority mail flat rate box with $400 insurance is $55. There is still no proof of delivery. Express mail with $400 insurance is about $77. You can get a return receipt, but I don't see
any other proof of delivery. Even if proof of delivery was available, you are depending on a postal worker in the other country doing his job. No thanks. We can't even depend on our USPS
people doing their job.
 
JohnTheTexican said:
I believe you've got that backwards. My understanding of UCC § 2-509 is that in shipping contracts, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the seller delivers the goods to the carrier. And sales contracts are assumed to be shipping contracts unless a destination contract is explicitly specified. So the seller's responsibility ends when the knife is mailed, and it's the buyer who bears the risk of nondelivery, unless it is agreed otherwise.
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Unless delivery to a specified address (" a particular destination") is a condition of sale. Ever buy with no such provision? Didn't think so.

Businesses do. They may only agree to shipment to "Port of New York."

If the seller has agreed to deliver, for example, to your home, the risk of loss is his unless you agree otherwise.

The words have meaning - every one of them
 
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Express International (And generally USPS Priority) can be tracked right to the delivery electronically. The signature is done electronically and the delivery recorded on the USPS tracking. You can sign up for ELECTRONIC proof of delivery which will get e-mail to you as well.
 
These type of threads surface with regularity on here ... if you have been here long enough you know what I mean ... the same things get said and there is always someone who wants to try to do things cheaper and differently ...

For years on here the rules have been the same and always been clear ... Sellers have to bear the risk ... it is in Bladeforums Policy and it is in Paypals Contract Rules ... so for the OP ... if the knife does'nt come just get a Paypal refund ... and the Seller either has or has not got insurance and if not it is his fault. The information and rules were there for him to check.

Forget about all the addy's on the sales forum which say .... Buyers risk once shipped etc ... these are all "flippers" wanting to "screw the nut" on their price/profit and cannot be bothered to follow the rules. If you have rules ... you have them ... you don't have "starting points for a discussion" on how to circumvent them ...

The only people who "sweat" over this sort of thread and the advice given in it ... are the guys who want to move Busse's at a profit and don't want to spring for full insurance cover when sending a knife because it makes their profits vanish or their knives too expensive .... but only when compared to fellow "flippers" who are pricing similar blades based on not having to spend the insurance cost too.

In the past we have had things get so messed up that some guys were even saying they insured the knife but never spent the money on insurance and sought to claim that they "self insured it". LOL ... if some claims for refunds on Paypal get those guys in the pocket and we then start to see proper following of the rules on the Exchange then it will become a much better place and Buyers threads like this won't be necessary :thumbup:

The cost of selling a knife and insuring it's value will be factored into the sale and the Seller will price the knife accordingly.

Bottom line is "play it straight" and you have no worries .... dick around and try and bend the rules ... you can end up losing a lot of money ...:thumbdn:
 
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