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I have absolutely no idea why the first part of this post turned blue when I went back to edit it. I am afraid to try and correct it. Bear with me. Walt
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BUSSE OR MADDOG?
- Thread starter Rob.L
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I have absolutely no idea why the first part of my previous post turned blue when I went back to edit it. I am afraid to try and correct it. Bear with me. Walt
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Bad Walt, Bad! No more UBB code for you....
Remember, the software automatically hyperlinks URL's now.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
Remember, the software automatically hyperlinks URL's now.
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
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Thanks, Spark. I am educated and enlightened. At least about UBB code.
Do you have any idea why the INFI knife at the blade show performed so well despite an alloy which might charitably be described as mediocre? Walt
Do you have any idea why the INFI knife at the blade show performed so well despite an alloy which might charitably be described as mediocre? Walt
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I wouldn't say the whole alloy is mediocre. Remember synergy: the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
It's an advanced concept in steel manufacture and production, and that's all I'm at liberty to say. Other than that, it works. Proof is in the puddin'
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
It's an advanced concept in steel manufacture and production, and that's all I'm at liberty to say. Other than that, it works. Proof is in the puddin'
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
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Collin Et All,
Some thoughts on ceramics verses steel. Most of us are well versed in an elementary way on how steel is manufactured and heat treated. A more limited example would be Talonite or Titanium. A fortunate few of us may actually have some experience in working with these materials. In the ceramics arena you have Kyocera, Boker and Mad Dog Knives. The Mad Dog ceramic knives are so far superior to the other ceramic blades currently marketed, that it is like comparing carbon steel to bronze.
Infi is a different story. While given the user reports, it is obviously a quality steel but what is it? The consumers do have a limited ability to understand its composition and heat treatment. I suspect there may some knowledgable contitbutors to this forum, that due to their practical experience, might even be able to help with the development of Infi. I don't see a comparable level of ceramics expertise in the knife community. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems so obvious.
I would still like to know why Infi is such a big seceret.
Colin
Some thoughts on ceramics verses steel. Most of us are well versed in an elementary way on how steel is manufactured and heat treated. A more limited example would be Talonite or Titanium. A fortunate few of us may actually have some experience in working with these materials. In the ceramics arena you have Kyocera, Boker and Mad Dog Knives. The Mad Dog ceramic knives are so far superior to the other ceramic blades currently marketed, that it is like comparing carbon steel to bronze.
Infi is a different story. While given the user reports, it is obviously a quality steel but what is it? The consumers do have a limited ability to understand its composition and heat treatment. I suspect there may some knowledgable contitbutors to this forum, that due to their practical experience, might even be able to help with the development of Infi. I don't see a comparable level of ceramics expertise in the knife community. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems so obvious.
I would still like to know why Infi is such a big seceret.
Colin
hey guys,
I asked jerry himself how they heat treat the metal. he said that they cryogenically treat it though 90 hours. but they freeze the metal in a very dry climate and do it a special way. I hope i don't get in trouble for telling this....but then if he told me openly and we don't really know each other i think it isn't really a big deal. I didn't ask if he did the tempering where you get it up to non magnetic and then quench it. I am guessing that is what he does before he does the cryogenic thing.
I have talked to a few knife makers who say the cryogenics doesn't do anything....But they have never had any type of steel like INFI.
For me, If Busse's knives perform that much better, i guess his steel is what he claims....here i am speaking for someone who doesn't believe that InFI is something superior and the tempering process works.
I can't wait until i get my basic 9
I will never be able to abuse it really hard Mainly because I am not 10 feet tall and 700 pounds and with the reputation of InFI.But I can still try to break it
yeah right. It will interesting to see how things work out and see how the blade performs.
luke
I asked jerry himself how they heat treat the metal. he said that they cryogenically treat it though 90 hours. but they freeze the metal in a very dry climate and do it a special way. I hope i don't get in trouble for telling this....but then if he told me openly and we don't really know each other i think it isn't really a big deal. I didn't ask if he did the tempering where you get it up to non magnetic and then quench it. I am guessing that is what he does before he does the cryogenic thing.
I have talked to a few knife makers who say the cryogenics doesn't do anything....But they have never had any type of steel like INFI.
For me, If Busse's knives perform that much better, i guess his steel is what he claims....here i am speaking for someone who doesn't believe that InFI is something superior and the tempering process works.
I can't wait until i get my basic 9
luke
Cliff Stamp
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Aubrey :
I would have guessed as much from what I read based on Ron Hoods description of how he sharpened the BM after some digging. Just curious to see if your experience was the same.
Rudy :
No they don't. MD has just stated that the blade is fully hardened and then the spine tempered. This is far from a full description of the process.
Arguments like "I don't use any newfangled materials" are, well, just really weak. If that was the prevailing attitude we would all still have flint knives.
Walt :
Extrapolation, interpolation and even speculation are a large part of scientific work. The quality of scientific work is in the manner in which things are done more so than in the exact methods used.
Note I said "when the choice is there".
Spark :
MD's O1 is very hard and would do this for quite some time. I found that dulling it on soft materials was very time consuming. My TUSK's showed much better edge retention on soft materials than Carbon-V, 1095 (Ontario), and even D2 (Uluchet).
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 09 August 1999).]
I would have guessed as much from what I read based on Ron Hoods description of how he sharpened the BM after some digging. Just curious to see if your experience was the same.
Rudy :
No they don't. MD has just stated that the blade is fully hardened and then the spine tempered. This is far from a full description of the process.
Arguments like "I don't use any newfangled materials" are, well, just really weak. If that was the prevailing attitude we would all still have flint knives.
Walt :
Extrapolation, interpolation and even speculation are a large part of scientific work. The quality of scientific work is in the manner in which things are done more so than in the exact methods used.
Note I said "when the choice is there".
Spark :
MD's O1 is very hard and would do this for quite some time. I found that dulling it on soft materials was very time consuming. My TUSK's showed much better edge retention on soft materials than Carbon-V, 1095 (Ontario), and even D2 (Uluchet).
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 09 August 1999).]
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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Judging the performance of Mad Dog knives by some other knife you happen to have that's also made of O1 will give a wildly wrong impression. MD doesn't temper the edge at all; it's file hard. That's not going to perform at all like a tempered edge even though it happens to be made of the same alloy. Try filing that tempered O1 knife ... or cutting a file with it....
Seems to me if I had been making hundreds of knives every year for years, advertising them as the toughest knives bar none, and only six of them failed I wouldn't balk at replacing all six of them even if I thought five of them had been abused, or refunding a customer's money if he broke two of them. Why should I look for an excuse not to? Would replacing six knives drive me into bankruptcy? That whole issue has been discussed enough anyway IMHO -- at least I've said everything I have to say about it, and I suspect everybody else has too -- not that it's been resolved, but that there's nothing more to say about it and no point in repeating it all.... The information that MD says he's had only six returns (and replaced only one of the six) is new, though.
I think a Mad Dog knife would cut 1" manila 2,000 times and still shave. What we're looking for, though, is a knife that will both hold its edge and be tough. I don't think an INFI Busse will surpass an MDK in edge-holding, but it might surpass it in toughness, especially edge toughness. That will have to be investigated.
Somebody said INFI heat treatment is "pretty straight forward, if you have the right equipment." That is NOT equivalent to saying it's "nothing special." It only means it's not difficult to do if you have the right equipment -- possibly relevant to cost, if that "right equipment" isn't terribly expensive, but not relevant to results.
There seem to be a number of people on these forums who think they can look at a list of ingredients of an alloy and determine from that how it will perform. Nobody can do that. If it were that simple we wouldn't have to spend millions of dollars every year developing new steels -- developing a new steel would be just a matter of looking over a list of properties different ingredients give and writing down what ingredients you want in what proportions and ordering a million dollars worth or however much you need -- no experimentation would be needed and industry would save millions annually in research and development costs. Seriously, if you can do that you should be as rich as Bill Gates -- there is a tremendous demand for your talents.
-Cougar Allen :{)
[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 09 August 1999).]
Seems to me if I had been making hundreds of knives every year for years, advertising them as the toughest knives bar none, and only six of them failed I wouldn't balk at replacing all six of them even if I thought five of them had been abused, or refunding a customer's money if he broke two of them. Why should I look for an excuse not to? Would replacing six knives drive me into bankruptcy? That whole issue has been discussed enough anyway IMHO -- at least I've said everything I have to say about it, and I suspect everybody else has too -- not that it's been resolved, but that there's nothing more to say about it and no point in repeating it all.... The information that MD says he's had only six returns (and replaced only one of the six) is new, though.
I think a Mad Dog knife would cut 1" manila 2,000 times and still shave. What we're looking for, though, is a knife that will both hold its edge and be tough. I don't think an INFI Busse will surpass an MDK in edge-holding, but it might surpass it in toughness, especially edge toughness. That will have to be investigated.
Somebody said INFI heat treatment is "pretty straight forward, if you have the right equipment." That is NOT equivalent to saying it's "nothing special." It only means it's not difficult to do if you have the right equipment -- possibly relevant to cost, if that "right equipment" isn't terribly expensive, but not relevant to results.
There seem to be a number of people on these forums who think they can look at a list of ingredients of an alloy and determine from that how it will perform. Nobody can do that. If it were that simple we wouldn't have to spend millions of dollars every year developing new steels -- developing a new steel would be just a matter of looking over a list of properties different ingredients give and writing down what ingredients you want in what proportions and ordering a million dollars worth or however much you need -- no experimentation would be needed and industry would save millions annually in research and development costs. Seriously, if you can do that you should be as rich as Bill Gates -- there is a tremendous demand for your talents.
-Cougar Allen :{)
[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 09 August 1999).]
Hi Folk,
Hope you don't mind if I intrude here. One of my spies said I should drop by for a visit ;>)
I enjoyed the thread about INFI. Great stuff and good arguments.
I need to make it clear that I cannot discuss the process used to make INFI. I signed the non disclosure agreement as did (I guess) Mike. The analysis is not the secret.
I still use the remaining BM I received from Jerry back when I wrote the article. It continues to amaze me. I sported bald spots on both arms and my calves for the first year I had the thing. Some folks though I had a skin disease when I told them my mistress caused them...
I know some of you will hate this but... I left one of my BM's with the Shapra-Candoshi indians of Peru during our last expedition in March/April. You can read about the people on our site. (You can get the video too!)
I hope to regain possession of it next March/April when we return. In previous years I have left a variety of blades with these folk and I can count on their ability to destroy steel and other metals. If the mistress survives that test, I'll give up torturing it.
INFI is a great metal. But there are always other issues, like balance and comfort. I'm sure Cliff will discuss these issues with his usual care and attention to detail.
I don't always carry the BM despite it's qualities. Sometimes I wonder why I need a metal with these qualities. Hell, 1095, properly treated, designed and assembled with care by a competent bladesmith, is hard to beat. When it dulls, stop cutting and sharpen it.... no big deal. I like to rest, and sharpening my knife is a satisfying way to look busy and get that rest.
God, I get tired of knives that won't dull....
Ron
Hope you don't mind if I intrude here. One of my spies said I should drop by for a visit ;>)
I enjoyed the thread about INFI. Great stuff and good arguments.
I need to make it clear that I cannot discuss the process used to make INFI. I signed the non disclosure agreement as did (I guess) Mike. The analysis is not the secret.
I still use the remaining BM I received from Jerry back when I wrote the article. It continues to amaze me. I sported bald spots on both arms and my calves for the first year I had the thing. Some folks though I had a skin disease when I told them my mistress caused them...
I know some of you will hate this but... I left one of my BM's with the Shapra-Candoshi indians of Peru during our last expedition in March/April. You can read about the people on our site. (You can get the video too!)
I hope to regain possession of it next March/April when we return. In previous years I have left a variety of blades with these folk and I can count on their ability to destroy steel and other metals. If the mistress survives that test, I'll give up torturing it.
INFI is a great metal. But there are always other issues, like balance and comfort. I'm sure Cliff will discuss these issues with his usual care and attention to detail.
I don't always carry the BM despite it's qualities. Sometimes I wonder why I need a metal with these qualities. Hell, 1095, properly treated, designed and assembled with care by a competent bladesmith, is hard to beat. When it dulls, stop cutting and sharpen it.... no big deal. I like to rest, and sharpening my knife is a satisfying way to look busy and get that rest.
God, I get tired of knives that won't dull....
Ron
Walt,
I certainly don't profess to have a grasp of metallurgy comparable to you, but since the two of us could be said to be Talonite (r) "pioneers", I'm surprised that a lesson learned there hasn't at least be considered vis-a-vis INFI.
What I'm referring to is the astounding difference in grinding and the arguably superior edge holding of Talonite (r) compared to its chemical equivilent Stellite 6k (r). The difference is in the processing Tom Walz and company puts into the Talonite. Why not consider that, although the chemical analysis of INFI seems pedestrian in that it is not a high tech alloy, the processing Busse employs is the key making this brew a superior blade steel? I'm interested in seeing how both straight and modified INFI performs long term, but if preliminary observations from those who own INFI Battle Mistress' and the like is a true indication, you've got to consider factors beyond simple chemical analysis of the steel used. Don't you agree?
-=[Bob]=-
I certainly don't profess to have a grasp of metallurgy comparable to you, but since the two of us could be said to be Talonite (r) "pioneers", I'm surprised that a lesson learned there hasn't at least be considered vis-a-vis INFI.
What I'm referring to is the astounding difference in grinding and the arguably superior edge holding of Talonite (r) compared to its chemical equivilent Stellite 6k (r). The difference is in the processing Tom Walz and company puts into the Talonite. Why not consider that, although the chemical analysis of INFI seems pedestrian in that it is not a high tech alloy, the processing Busse employs is the key making this brew a superior blade steel? I'm interested in seeing how both straight and modified INFI performs long term, but if preliminary observations from those who own INFI Battle Mistress' and the like is a true indication, you've got to consider factors beyond simple chemical analysis of the steel used. Don't you agree?
-=[Bob]=-
THANK YOU RON!!
I am glad that someone finally made that point! 1095 will hold a great edge for a good amount of time and sharpen up easy enough. sure you can't cut thousands of pieces of rope and still shave but for me and everyone else on this forum, 1095 is more than enough. Yes it is truely amazing what jerry has developed....i wonderful steel that holds a super edge that can be beaten and abused all day long.It is great that it passes the rope test with flying colors.by the way, while most of us don't cut 1 inch hemp rope all day, it is a great test. It shows edge retention because hemp rope is very abrasive
I am planning on buying the Basic 9 myself. but for most cutting tasks(boxes, fan belts, nylon webbing and cable, Squirrels, rabbits, deer etc.) my SoP made by Newt Livesay out of 1095 which cost 20 bucks will work out fine. Sure it only has a 1.5 inch blade but who needs anything bigger for simple non-chopping tasks? I sure don't.
Yeah yeah i'll shut up now,
luke
ps>If i am wrong here do correct me
I am glad that someone finally made that point! 1095 will hold a great edge for a good amount of time and sharpen up easy enough. sure you can't cut thousands of pieces of rope and still shave but for me and everyone else on this forum, 1095 is more than enough. Yes it is truely amazing what jerry has developed....i wonderful steel that holds a super edge that can be beaten and abused all day long.It is great that it passes the rope test with flying colors.by the way, while most of us don't cut 1 inch hemp rope all day, it is a great test. It shows edge retention because hemp rope is very abrasive
I am planning on buying the Basic 9 myself. but for most cutting tasks(boxes, fan belts, nylon webbing and cable, Squirrels, rabbits, deer etc.) my SoP made by Newt Livesay out of 1095 which cost 20 bucks will work out fine. Sure it only has a 1.5 inch blade but who needs anything bigger for simple non-chopping tasks? I sure don't.
Yeah yeah i'll shut up now,
luke
ps>If i am wrong here do correct me
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Ron and Lukers,
Man it is nice to know I'm not the only one! I just recently got a few knives that changed my definition of "shaving sharp", and I can't stop testing them! Oh well, once the newness wears off I'll probably slow down. I hope so anyway.
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Just because I talk to myself doesn't mean I'm crazy. What's wrong with getting a second opinion?
Man it is nice to know I'm not the only one! I just recently got a few knives that changed my definition of "shaving sharp", and I can't stop testing them! Oh well, once the newness wears off I'll probably slow down. I hope so anyway.
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Just because I talk to myself doesn't mean I'm crazy. What's wrong with getting a second opinion?
- Joined
- Nov 30, 1998
- Messages
- 61
I'm just wondering why the debate is always Busse vs. Maddog? I have been reading about Strider knives and they seem to have a real good reputation as well. Does anyone have any comments on Strider vs. Busse vs. Maddog?
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 1,697
My two francs,
It's very very easy to be better than a Mad Dog Knife especially for the asked price !
I have been really disappointed by the mediocre results of the "rebonding" blade.
Sure the ATAK got a nice look and a confortable blade. But look is not everything in a so called serious fixed blade.
I choose Busse !
They keep their promisses.
JM
It's very very easy to be better than a Mad Dog Knife especially for the asked price !
I have been really disappointed by the mediocre results of the "rebonding" blade.
Sure the ATAK got a nice look and a confortable blade. But look is not everything in a so called serious fixed blade.
I choose Busse !
They keep their promisses.
JM
Cliff Stamp
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- 17,562
Ron :
That is why I always carry a steel, it allows me to "look busy" without even wearing metal away from the knife - and there is even a practical reason for doing it.
James :
Just because they are well known I would assume.
Walt :
The first MD I broke was used extensively at Knifegnugen by Mad Dog himself, Shannow Lew and others. Shannon described this to me on the phone in some detail. I broke it under light stress with minimal effort the first time I attempted to do light durability work with it. MD examined it and found that it had a materials flaw. A flaw that none of them could find - yet one that I brought to light easily. I submit it is not my testing methodology that has the problem.
MD and his followers have lied, used personal and racist attacks and even threats of violence on his forum. This is why MD and MD knives are not that popular here and on rec.knives, it is not because I broke two of them, it is because of the reaction by MD and company to it.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 10 August 1999).]
That is why I always carry a steel, it allows me to "look busy" without even wearing metal away from the knife - and there is even a practical reason for doing it.
James :
Just because they are well known I would assume.
Walt :
The first MD I broke was used extensively at Knifegnugen by Mad Dog himself, Shannow Lew and others. Shannon described this to me on the phone in some detail. I broke it under light stress with minimal effort the first time I attempted to do light durability work with it. MD examined it and found that it had a materials flaw. A flaw that none of them could find - yet one that I brought to light easily. I submit it is not my testing methodology that has the problem.
MD and his followers have lied, used personal and racist attacks and even threats of violence on his forum. This is why MD and MD knives are not that popular here and on rec.knives, it is not because I broke two of them, it is because of the reaction by MD and company to it.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 10 August 1999).]
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- Oct 12, 1998
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I have heard good things about Strider Knives, but don't know much about them. For info, Cecil Self is a good person to ask:
cself@arrow-dynamics.com
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Clay Fleischer
clay_fleischer@yahoo.com
AKTI Member A000847
cself@arrow-dynamics.com
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Clay Fleischer
clay_fleischer@yahoo.com
AKTI Member A000847