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California state law wth.
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seeing the visible clip, reasoning that type of clip is more often than not attached to a knife, and believing that the person may be carrying an illegal item, is probable cause to conduct a search of that person.
should the knife in question fall under the 3" guideline, no arrest could be made.
per the letter of the law.
ive seen many an adult carrying a folder clipped visibly to a pocket, and couldn't care less about conducting a search unless there is another reason i feel they need to be stopped. i don't ever recall using a knife clip as a pretense for stop, but it would certainly be a legitimate stop.
it is probably better to just keep it under a shirt to avoid potential police contact.
should the knife in question fall under the 3" guideline, no arrest could be made.
per the letter of the law.
ive seen many an adult carrying a folder clipped visibly to a pocket, and couldn't care less about conducting a search unless there is another reason i feel they need to be stopped. i don't ever recall using a knife clip as a pretense for stop, but it would certainly be a legitimate stop.
it is probably better to just keep it under a shirt to avoid potential police contact.
The fact that a search has to be made to ascertain that the object is in fact a knife and that the knife in fact exceeds the legal length for LA means to me that it was not "in plain view" within the meaning of the ordinance. And therefore, while the stop may have been a good one, I question whether an arrest for violating the ordinance would be valid.
I think we agree, however, on the principle that discretion is advised.
I think we agree, however, on the principle that discretion is advised.
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if an identifiable portion of the item is visible, it is not concealed.
consider a holstered handgun. portions of the handgun are going to be visible, portions will be hidden by the holster. the entire item need not be visible to be considered in plain view. in fact, this would in most cases not be possible.
if the clip is visible, an officer has probable cause to conduct the search to determine if the item is legal or not.
Out of curiosity, what was the purpose and idea behind this restriction on open carry in LA? As you probably know, the vast majority of knife laws are the opposite (concealed is illegal but open is not).
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no clue.
guess someone somewhere figured it was just better not to see what they knew was going to get carried anyway.
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yep, down here in san diego i caqrry my 12 inch gi tanto with almost no problems
Hanging from a sheath openly suspended from the waist, no problem (absent local ordinances). Don't have to be a Californian either. We let anybody do that here.
But it is not allowed on school grounds or in public (state and local govt) buildings. No fixed or locking blades allowed on school grounds; only slip joints with blades no more than 2-1/2". For public buildings, no fixed or locking blade more than 4".
But it is not allowed on school grounds or in public (state and local govt) buildings. No fixed or locking blades allowed on school grounds; only slip joints with blades no more than 2-1/2". For public buildings, no fixed or locking blade more than 4".
Morimotom,
You've been so generous with information on knife (and other) laws that I thought I would provide my recollection of the background of the odd prohibition on 3+ inch exposed carry in LA City/County. I was here when the laws were being considered and passed and I recall reading the history and rationale behind them.
During the 1970s, there were a lot of gang banger type drug dealers hanging out in Echo, MacArthur and some of the other city parks. They got checked out by the police periodically so many didn't want to unlawfully carry firearms to defend their illegal inventory and cash. Instead, many of them started going to Army surplus stores and buying old WWI type bayonets. These were available very cheaply and were often the size of a short sword. Alternatively, some bought cheap machetes.
The drug dealers would wear these large blades on their belts in the public areas where they were doing business to intimidate rivals, protect their inventory, keep customers from failing to pay, etc. So the problem about which the city council and county board of supervisors were concerned was the conspicuous public brandishing of large blades by low lifes for purposes of intimidation. Accordingly, their legal staffs drafted legislation aimed only at the narrow open carry issue. Apparently they were not told to address concealed carry or to write a comprehensive, integrated knife law.
Until you hear the history and intent of the legislation, it always seems incongruous that open carry of a large folder in LA would be a problem while concealed carry would not. However, as with many annoying laws, it was a bunch of dirtbags behaving badly that caused this quirky legal situation with which we must now deal.
DancesWithKnives
You've been so generous with information on knife (and other) laws that I thought I would provide my recollection of the background of the odd prohibition on 3+ inch exposed carry in LA City/County. I was here when the laws were being considered and passed and I recall reading the history and rationale behind them.
During the 1970s, there were a lot of gang banger type drug dealers hanging out in Echo, MacArthur and some of the other city parks. They got checked out by the police periodically so many didn't want to unlawfully carry firearms to defend their illegal inventory and cash. Instead, many of them started going to Army surplus stores and buying old WWI type bayonets. These were available very cheaply and were often the size of a short sword. Alternatively, some bought cheap machetes.
The drug dealers would wear these large blades on their belts in the public areas where they were doing business to intimidate rivals, protect their inventory, keep customers from failing to pay, etc. So the problem about which the city council and county board of supervisors were concerned was the conspicuous public brandishing of large blades by low lifes for purposes of intimidation. Accordingly, their legal staffs drafted legislation aimed only at the narrow open carry issue. Apparently they were not told to address concealed carry or to write a comprehensive, integrated knife law.
Until you hear the history and intent of the legislation, it always seems incongruous that open carry of a large folder in LA would be a problem while concealed carry would not. However, as with many annoying laws, it was a bunch of dirtbags behaving badly that caused this quirky legal situation with which we must now deal.
DancesWithKnives
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MA has local laws limiting blade length. Boston, for example, has a blade length limit of 2.5" for carry (concealed or otherwise) within city limits. North Shore cities located near Boston (Salem, Lynn, Revere and Beverly) have similar ordinances. Worcester and Lawrence (crimed-plagued former mill cities) adopted such legislation last year after a series or knife attacks. The MA state charter and state constitution allow for such "home rule" laws. Pre-emption laws, which prevent localities from enacting more stringent regulations than existing state law, deal with the possession of firearms and were inspired by gun bans in Chicago area suburbs about 30 ago. I never heard of any pre-emption law protecting the right to own/carry edged weapons. If anyone out there knows of any such law, please share the details with us.
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can one of you legal fact-findee types point me to any County/City statutes in Moreno Valley specifically or Riverside County? i'd sure be obliged to ye'
There's no 4 inch law that I'm aware of. I have sometimes heard of this as some sort of enforcement guideline but it's not a statute I've ever seen. My shooting buddy's son-in-law graduated from the Sheriff's Academy talking about the 4 inch limit he was taught. He was surprised when he couldn't find it anywhere on the books.
As I understand CA state law, you can carry a folder concealed. It's a fixed blade that you cannot carry concealed.
DancesWithKnives
As I understand CA state law, you can carry a folder concealed. It's a fixed blade that you cannot carry concealed.
DancesWithKnives
When veteran BATFE special agent William Queen went undercover to infiltrate the SFV-based Mongols M.C., he spent the early part of his investigation hanging out in a Tujunga biker bar called "The Place". He noticed that each Mongol carried a large sheath knife, along with a thick length of chain, openly on his belt.
The four-inch limit applies to carrying in public buildings. Penal Code §171b provides as follows:
171b. (a) Any person who brings or possesses within any state or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public pursuant to Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 54950) of Part 1 of Division 2 of Title 5 of, or Article 9 (commencing with Section 11120) of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of, the Government Code, any of the following is guilty of a public offense punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year, or in the state prison:
(1) Any firearm.
(2) Any deadly weapon described in Section 653k or 12020.
(3) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the blade of which is fixed or is capable of being fixed in an unguarded position by the use of one or two hands.
(4) Any unauthorized tear gas weapon.
(5) Any taser or stun gun, as defined in Section 244.5.
(6) Any instrument that expels a metallic projectile, such as a BB or pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun or paint gun.
There are exceptions, of course, for LEO's, knives as evidence, CCW's, etc.(1) Any firearm.
(2) Any deadly weapon described in Section 653k or 12020.
(3) Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the blade of which is fixed or is capable of being fixed in an unguarded position by the use of one or two hands.
(4) Any unauthorized tear gas weapon.
(5) Any taser or stun gun, as defined in Section 244.5.
(6) Any instrument that expels a metallic projectile, such as a BB or pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun or paint gun.
Aside from public buildings, schools and universities, airport security (and passenger security in ship terminals), I am aware of no state law restricting blade length of either folding knives or fixed blades. Carrying any fixed blade concealed is probably a violation of the prohibition on carrying a dirk or dagger.
There are local restrictions, but they generally have exceptions that are not mentioned. LA county and the city of LA both have prohibitions on open carry, but they also have exemptions for legitimate occupational or recreational use.
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Thanks Swedge---that's very interesting! I have heard the 4 inch number many times as a general rule and know it's not correct in that regard. But I was unaware of the public building law. I am going to pass that on to my buddy's son-in-law. I'm curious when that portion of the Code was enacted and should look it up. It was a few years ago that we researched the 4 inch issue.
Much appreciated,
DancesWithKnives
Much appreciated,
DancesWithKnives
Here is the municipal code for Moreno Valley.
http://www.qcode.us/codes/morenovalley/
Typically a knife ordinance would be under the Peace, Morals and Safety chapter, but there appears to be nothing knife-related there.
Here's the municipal code for Riverside County:
http://library2.municode.com/default-now/home.htm?infobase=16320&doc_action=whatsnew
This particular resource doesn't seem to be all that helpful. It's a bit tricky to use. Title 9, Public Peace, Morals and Welfare should be the place to find a knife ordinance, but I don't see any. A search of the site for "knife" and "knives" returned no hits.
Skateboarding seems to be a bigger problem in RC.
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if you are in the san fernando valley, you are subject to the restrictions in the los angeles municipal code, los angeles county code, as well as the ca penal code.
or if you happen to be in the cities of san fernando or burbank, you are subject to their municipal laws. both are incorporated cities within the city limits of metro los angeles and the san fernando valley.