"camp" security

my scout is a sporterized m44, i have a m44 with a 4x scout scope, muzzlebrake, floated barrel. sporterized millitary stock with bipod, and camo finish. its a nice camp rifle. and it would be great for shtf day. id like to get a turk right now and put a 7mm mag. barrel on it, new stock free float that, add nice optics and a bipod.basically a poor mans sniper.
collection of mil grade stuff is a mosin nagant 91/30 pu, and a springfield 1903 a4, (i cheated and used a no gunsmith mount and a modern optic). i hope to get a yugo and an enfield #4, and a kar98. maybe an chinese sks to convert into a bullpup.
yeah im a sucker for ww2 bolt action rifles. semi auto aint my thing unless its as cheap as an sks(i would like an m14 though). if the money keeps flowing like it is i should have everything on that list in another 2 years. hopefully the shtf doesnt happen before that!
 
That is a heck of an M44! Awesome setup.

I worked a gunshow with my uncle last year, tons of M44s and K-98s. The YUGOs are not as common as they were a few years ago, at least not at that gunshow. But the YUGO SKS rifles are great. A bit heavier than others, but well made and great shooters. Often times, you could find pairs with consecutive serial numbers (one dealer had a set of four, numbered one after the other :eek: !). They have the grenade launchers on them, lol. Wouldn't that be a formidable camp defense: rifle grenades! A few claymores, too... :D

I feel warm and fuzzy now.
 
i know thats a nice scout, but i really dont see much of a use for it besides deer.
what is the purpose of the scout rifle anyway, im mean its comfortable and great for hunting, but i dont see much scouting going on in america.
yeah for 17 my arsenal is looking pretty good so far, if i keep this up im gunna have to convert my sisters old room into my armory(she moves away to college next year!) :D
 
Man, TLM! I like that! Lot's of other good ideas but when I got to yours, something rang true!

Sleeping in da tree... yeah!
 
As for scouting, you never know when the skills of a scout could be needed. Like this thread's focus, camp security when the SHTF. So I figure there are enough reasons to keep those sorts of skills sharp and ready. That's my motivation, at least.

And here's a quote I like, that seems appropriate:

"Let neither cold, hunger, nor pain, nor the fear of them, neither the bristling teeth of danger nor the very jaws of death itself, prevent you from doing a good deed."
--An old Indian chief to a scout who was about to look for buffalo to help relieve his people's midwinter famine. From the book The Soul of the Indian. (Good book.)

Enough of my rambling, being only 20 myself, lol. And a private armory sounds capitol to me, good luck!
 
The key to being safe from antagonists in the wilderness isn't found in gear or gadgets, or even guns. Guns are for when you screw up. Most people will fail at this because of a lack of resolve and discipline. It takes determination to stay put for a day or two in a good hiding place, and never, ever move on a trail. No lights, no fires, no cooking, no washing, no trash, no rattle, no shine, no sloshing canteen, no voices. It is uncomfortable and intensely boring to remain immobile while you are being looked for. After the "danger" is passed you have to remain hidden for longer than they want to wait for you to pop out somewhere.

The point that breaks most people who are doing the E&E thing is mental. At some point they just give up and start taking chances and risks out of sheer exhaustion and a broken will to maintain the kind of discipline necessary.

Seriously if someone locates your camp and has the patience to wait he's going to shoot you from 100 yards out while you're taking a dump. All it takes to give away a positon is a dropped canteen cup.

Take a lesson from big whitetailed deer. They get huge racks because they have developed an alternate lifestyle to the normal pattern of the deer in the area. They never walk on trails or roads, they don't feed or water in the same locations as the others, and they are highly paranoid of human contact.

If you are planning to survive in the same wilderness in which armed people are looking for you or would do you harm you must never be seen. You can't afford any contact. That means they own every easy route of travel or water source.

The classic example of this type of (nightmare) lifestyle was that bomber guy who hid out in the mountains while lots of LEO's were looking for him long term. He finally got caught, not in a stealth camp, but raiding a dumpster for food becuase he was tired and hungry from living like a bat for so long.

It is a matter of resolve, not gear. If it ever does come to a fight the best you can hope for is to get them to go to cover and then break contact and get far far away from the contact point becuase every resource they can bring to bear will be there searching. Mac
 
it also means that you cannot kill attackers, because a fellow soldier will report the missing comrade and youll have a whole brigade on you.
suprisingly the begining of red dawn had this right, dont leave camp stay put, and dont attract attention. but then when they get discovered by the russians up on the mountain they have to kill them. then the HQ hears about this and they send a ton of men down on them.
basically i dont think we should hide in a stealth camp in an invasion situation, we should form a millitia and fight back using guerilla warfare. just like they did in the revolution. of course that type of tactic was pretty much unheard of to the british, and that probly why it worked so well. nowadays soldier is trained to fight like that, so maybe a millitia wouldnt work, and living a life surrounded by stealth is the only way to go incase of invasion. or maybe a diffrent for of tactic, almost like assasin tactics, staying completely invisible and using only silent weapons to attack troop, and then maybe laying low for a while untill it cools off and then start again.
maybe snipe enemy officers, and then lay low, causeing severe moral droop and paranoid soldiers.
im suggest some type of action against the "in theory" invaders, because i personally couldnt sit by and live my life in complete stealth without doing something to make things difficult for them.
so basically by suggesting we live life in stealth we would also have to give up our country to a enemy force. or we could use severly steathy guerilla tactics to make the fighting easier on our soldiers, by demoralizingn the enemy.
you make a good point though, if were all trigger happy in an event like shtf well probably end up dead. but i thinkthey would be too busy in the beginning just securing the major cities that a single person could easily slip by and lay low, even be forgotten, and then start attacking using guerilla and sniper tactics.
there are also two choices you can make, have strength in numbers, and be easily found. or you can be a single man, not easily found, but if you are found your for sure either dead or gunna be tortured, interogated, and then executed.
 
I think the possiblity of such a senario is really far-fetched to say the very least...but it still makes for interesting conversation so here goes:

I think to myself "what would make ME avoid an area"?

Maybe you could place dead animals (cows, sheep, dogs, birds, cats, possums, etc...), positioned at random, about 1/2 a mile from your camp.

This might sound crazy, but when I was in Iraq during the 1st gulf War our convoy came upon a small village that had dead animals (mostly sheep and a few camels) all around the village and there were no people around.
We immediately put on our chemical protective gear, notified our Brigade element, and made a very wide detour around "Q-town".

I've often thought that maybe the village suffered a disease or a chemical incident...but I never did learn what really happened there.

Allen.
 
TLM said:
You use a hammock to sleep 20 ft up in the trees, usefull also because much fewer mosquitos up there.

TLM


Good, so they will be able to use you for skeet if they spot you :eek: . Not like you can just jump down. Granted, they have a lot less chance of spotting you, but I would rather be able to escape.



Here is a bit from an E&E article by Brian Jones.

"If you go up a tree, the enemy will make a monkey out of you. As you sit at
home and think about it, treetops are alluring. Here's the scenario: With a
slingshot you shoot a shot weighted fishline over a high limb. The fishline
is tied to a parachute cord (550 lbs test) and you pull it over. With your
foot in the loop on one side of the line, you Hand-over-hand up the other
until you're into the tree tops. Then you connect tree to tree, and you
befuddle the whole Posse. Bull; it really goes like this:

You finally get up in the trees and, miracle-- the branches are thick enough
to connect. It takes a long time to pull this off so you lose lead time, and
it is tiring. Also you could have fallen on your Butt and broken something,
but you made it! Now, you're ten-twenty trees away, and they arrive.

The dogs either bark tree'd or stop and look up. So the posse fans out and
goes heads up also. You don't dare move. If you happen to have a gun and
shoot, you'll kill one, and the other 19 will venilate you. You are
cornered. They WILL find you, day or night, because they know you can't
move. If you do.. they will probably kill you (weapons or the fall). Yes,
the tree plan sucketh. Ask any dead bear or coon that has ever been
tree'd---DONT TAKE TO THE TREES."
 
Btw, here is a good Escape and Evasion article, worth a read





This is what it all boils down to... They want to find you, and you fix it
so they can't.

To find you they have to use their senses. But you become one with your
environment--- invisable and inaudible, so their senses won't work. Confuse
them and they can't think. Attack them, Harass them, trap them, destroy their
minds, then their hearts, and finially some of their tired, beaten bodies,
and the only thing that WILL work is their emotions. Then, You own them.

Stealth is your great ally. Speed is only used for emergencies. Many people
think that the idea in escaping and evading is merely to put distance between
you and your pursuers. That's wrong--- with one exception. In this game of
life and death, stealth, and the ability to scheme are relative. It's them
against you. In the beginning of the chase, flat out speed often works to
your advantage, because it forces them into hot pursuit immediately, so they
never get a chance to organize.

Even if you are running scared, so that the more lead time you have the
better you like it, the answer may not be for you to run faster, but to make
them run slower. Take at least one member of their party out and the rest
will slow down to a crawl. When they start out after you with superior
numbers, better weapons and dogs, they will press on and enjoy the chase. As
soon as one of them dies, all will scare, and start thinking maybe this isn't
fun after all.

DON'T PANIC; Stay cool! If you Panic you loose the ability to scheme and
plan. Then you are dead meat. You have to know the power of the enemy and
plan for every possibility. Dont just move. Think. Scheme. You must be able
to PRECISELY assess the situation and then Plan and scheme around the facts.

Never make a maneuver that requires a strength you dont have or a weapon you
don't own. On the contrary, Force THEM into over-extending, hurrying, and
running scared. Why Tangle with them when they are fresh, confident and
ready to fight. Wait. Sooner, or later, they will make a mistake.

The seconday factor is your physical condition and how well you maintain
yourself as you escape.

Finally, distance is helpful, but remember--- ONLY HELPFUL.
DO NOT attempt to hide in Water. Every War movie from Rambo on back, puts the
hero into the drink. He breathes through a reed while they pass, and then
comes out behind them. That's show biz; Here's real life:

You go into the water. If they have dogs, the doggie will turn and say,
"this is where he went into the drink because I can't smell him anymore."
(Even if you have bathed 100%, you develop Maggot breath in the woods, and no
dog could miss it.)

Then the Handler will fan left or right and find a place for the dog to pick
up your trail on one side of the bank or the other. If they find no trail,
they know you continued to bathe. They will find you. "But," you say,
"you're hidden under a bunch of sacred lilies, Which they don't dare to
disturb, so they can't see you." (yeah, right.)

So--they will just wait you out. Water takes away your body heat at a
phenomenal rate, about 7 times faster than air. Your natural body
temperature is about 98.6 degrees. Even if the water is a comfy 74, in time
you will suffer from hypothermia. They will wait, and you will freeze.

Even if they didn't have time to wait (but they certainly will...you are
their priority), detection is a big problem. You have to get deep enough so
they can't see you through the water. You also have to breathe. Now, we
already know that you wouldn't be in the water if you didn't believe in
fiction, so you just happen to have with you a special camouflaged hose six
feet long.

At first you breath fine. But then it becomes labored. Why? You exhale
carbon dioxide, which does not clear the hose, so you breathe back in your
own carbon dioxide, and re-use the unexpended oxygen... you run out of air.
You end up cold and sucking gas as you bubble to the top. Yes, water
hideouts are great, but only in the movies...

Finally, there's the one about running in the creek. Then a scent dog can't
track you and you get away. No,no.

First, you run a tremendous risk of injury travelling in creeks because all
the rocks on the bottom are slippery. You'll think somebody designed them
just for breaking ankles. Second, you move more slowly in water than you do
on land. Anybody can walk faster on the bank than you can run in the
water... And you will make God's own noise while running. Hypothermia is,
again, a problem, and at very least you lose calories, and therefore stamina.
The creek getaway is an armchair dream; it won't work either.

If you go up a tree, the enemy will make a monkey out of you. As you sit at
home and think about it, treetops are alluring. Here's the scenario: With a
slingshot you shoot a shot weighted fishline over a high limb. The fishline
is tied to a parachute cord (550 lbs test) and you pull it over. With your
foot in the loop on one side of the line, you Hand-over-hand up the other
until you're into the tree tops. Then you connect tree to tree, and you
befuddle the whole Posse. Bull; it really goes like this:

You finally get up in the trees and, miracle-- the branches are thick enough
to connect. It takes a long time to pull this off so you lose lead time, and
it is tiring. Also you could have fallen on your Butt and broken something,
but you made it! Now, you're ten-twenty trees away, and they arrive.

The dogs either bark tree'd or stop and look up. So the posse fans out and
goes heads up also. You don't dare move. If you happen to have a gun and
shoot, you'll kill one, and the other 19 will venilate you. You are
cornered. They WILL find you, day or night, because they know you can't
move. If you do.. they will probably kill you (weapons or the fall). Yes,
the tree plan sucketh. Ask any dead bear or coon that has ever been
tree'd---DONT TAKE TO THE TREES.

You can't evade if you don't preserve yourself. If you let your diet
go or get a case of food poisoning, you're history. You have to eat.
No 7-11's in the woods, so you will have to go native, and eat what's
available.

Most often in an E&E situation you must feed yourself on the run.
Snake, birds and rodents are great, But it takes a ton of lead time
to catch them. You are better off with ants, Termites and grubworms,
because these are plentiful and take very little stopping time to
catch and prepare. Even grasshoppers take some time and energy to
catch. Ants, termites and grubworms are the fast food of the
jungle. Just think of this as the escapee's Kentucky Colonel. You
can even sing, "We do termites right."

Turn over a rock and catch a bunch of ants on a leaf or piece of
paper. Scoop them into a cup, add water, heat 'n serve. It will
taste sweet. Break off a bottom chunk of wood to find termites, and
flick these into the same cup. Incidentally, replace the log so that
trackers won't know what you're eating. Add water, boil; enjoy.

Grub worms go down like a large pill. Break off the head and swallow
the body with a swig of water. These are best because the fat content
provides you with energy.

With enough lead time developed to enable you to build a small fire,
you can upgrade your menu. Rodents, birds, squirrels, etc, make
great meals. A fat rat isn't much less than a skinny rabbit. I am
not in favor of snakes because the risk isn't worth the low fat
diet they provide. Birds can be snared alright, but they take a long
time to prepare, and you have to boil any carrion-eater because they
are full of parasites. Fowl are wonderful to eat, but they make a
racket you would not believe when snared.

Plants are another chapter entirely, but as a rule grasses are edible
unless they have saw toothed edges; this will tear up your digestive
system. Avoid eating any plant with a mily sap, except dandilions,
which are fine to eat cooked or raw.




This is from http://dnausers.d-n-a.net/prepared/skills.html




And here is a sweet site
http://www.survivalbill.com/phpBB2/index.php



Have fun.
 
i learned my lesson the hard way about treetop combat,( paintball to the groin) everyone thought it was funny when i fell and nearly passed out from the horrible pain. well i played in regular sniper hides for the rest of the day, but the next time i hid in a tree again, and really did some damage. everyone thought id be too dumb to hid in a tree again so they didnt expect it.
im not saying hide in a tree for real combat, because you wouldnt have the element of suprise the next time you would be dead. im more kinda stateing that yes tree hides are bad, and that doing the unexpected is a much better tactic.
 
I think that I read the above quote in a Don Paul book. Maybe Paul's
"Survivor".
And when you got clipped in the nads that was not E+E that was an attempt to engage. Never climb a tree, you have no place to go if discovered.
 
This is the one and only time I would advocate getting a small yappy Yorkshire terrier... they're small, eat very little and bark at everything!

In some cases, that's a problem. A yapping dog will also tell them where you are, or at least get their attention, especially if the dog won't shut up.

If possible, train the little critter to shut up once you give a signal. That way he can be the early warning that wakes you up when you're asleep, but won't give away your exact location.

The "ideal" solution I suppose, is to have a buddy or two and sleep in shifts, but that's got it's problems too...
 
In the article they are advocating heating the ants in water... pretty sure thats a cardinal sin... using fire while being chased. Smoke, Light, scorch marks...
 
Depends, if you make small fires with dry wood and there are trees over you, there will be almost no smoke. If the fire is small, it is fairly easy to cover with sand, and place some leaves and debris over it to conceal it.
 
I just came upon this thread and in light of what has just occurred after Hurricane Katrina it shows that it does not take a WMD hit for things to go really bad. I saw many good ideas listed that would be ideal for a disciplined military unit operating behind enemy lines. Unfortunately nowadays we are probably talking about defending your family (children)in a heavily urban setting (especially for WMD's) against roving packs of savages who are looting, raping, and murdering for the fun of it. You can't just hide, and there is no non-lethal option that is going to protect you. Be prepared to do what ever is necessary until help arrives. A reliable, military caliber rifle is step number one. It doesn't matter how well thought out and equipped your survival gear setup is if a bunch of thugs can simply take it away from you. This is a truly terrible reality check that things have come to this. :(
 
All the plans for camping and evasion etc sounds really cool. Except what are you guys going to eat after a week or two. The deer will probably be killed off the first 10 days. A lot of competition for fish. You could probably steal and kill a farmer's livestock- except that he won't be raising any more livestock just to feed groups of armed bandits.

It means starvation in short order. And living in a tent with insects and cold rain and diarhea isn't attractive beyond a few days.

There isn't much wilderness around any more. And the locals, who know the land and will be well armed and organized, may not welcome armed bands of aggressive folks roaming the landscape....indeed they will view such groups as a threat that needs to be dealt with by force.

Just had to inject some reality here......
 
StuU said:
All the plans for camping and evasion etc sounds really cool. Except what are you guys going to eat after a week or two. The deer will probably be killed off the first 10 days. A lot of competition for fish. You could probably steal and kill a farmer's livestock- except that he won't be raising any more livestock just to feed groups of armed bandits.

It means starvation in short order. And living in a tent with insects and cold rain and diarhea isn't attractive beyond a few days.

There isn't much wilderness around any more. And the locals, who know the land and will be well armed and organized, may not welcome armed bands of aggressive folks roaming the landscape....indeed they will view such groups as a threat that needs to be dealt with by force.

Just had to inject some reality here......

I appreciate what your say'ing, but I'm not sure what you are suggesting as a proactive course of action. This scenario just unfolded in New Orleans and no one was killing deer or fishing. There were no organized well armed locals, they evacuated. What was left was a disorganized rabble of thugs. That is what you have to deal with if you get stuck in the area. Not a very pleasant reality at all. :(
 
pict said:
I always carry in the woods where legal. I've had people throw their liberal PC tizzy fits plenty of times. I've had hikers go morally superior and arrogantly dismiss me as a neanderthal. Mac

I have had the same experience with hikers on the AT in Virginia,.... some hikers from the northeast come to mind. :rolleyes:

I once submitted a post on a hiking forum about firearm carry on the AT and my post was censored.

I believe someone who knows that you have a concealed weapon is less likely to provoke you.
 
Back
Top