Can .45GAP replace .45ACP?

[mete]

There is no doubt that with unexpanding bullets caliber does count. Information about this can be found on various records going back to the civil war. No need to repeat that just do some research. When it comes to hollow points the difference is lessened. With hollow points though you can design almost anything ,from bullets that won't exit a rabbit or chuck [I've seen both ] to HPs that only expand if you hit a rock....BTW while people talk about the 230 as standard for the 45acp, actually there were two original weights, 200 civilian and 230 military.There even were two projectile rounds for bank guards.

 

[TNRat]

its what the FBI/DOD and lots of others use and is not a bad predictor

No one can predict the future with 100% accuracy. That is why gel is only, as you said, a predictor.

Case in point, the 147 and 148 grain JHP's in 9mm everyone was so crazy about that fell flat on its face on the street.

I understand gel gives us a better idea of where we stand than nothing at all, but ultimately you do not know how well something is going to work until you put the coal to it.

NASA can calculate all day long about the max speed of a new aircraft, but until they put it in the air and open it up it does not mean squat.

The Sanow studies, while not scientific, are not completely useless.

The study I would like to see on any given bullet/ammo combo would be one in which all info concerning every shooting were presented to you to peruse at your leisure. I don't care if one case had a one shot stop, and one case had a 20 round failure.

Lay all the info on the table and let the buyer decide.

 

[Geraldo]

Posted by Sid Post:

a lot of law enforcement agencies see the 40S&W as the best blend of both fast and light and slow and heavy.

That may be what they originally thought, but experience with the .40 has lead to the increased use of 135-155gr bullets at higher velocities than the 180 grainers.

Posted by Terry Newton:

Case in point, the 147 and 148 grain JHP's in 9mm everyone was so crazy about that fell flat on its face on the street.

Rumors of the demise of 147gr 9mm is greatly exaggerated. 147gr Winchester Ranger works very well (as does its lighter +P+ 127gr).

 

[MORIMOTOM]

we issue the 165 grain stx. but seems we have gone a little.......

 

[falnovice]

I am a gun guy first and foremost. This GAP has nothing for me as far as I am concerned. I can handle G21 just fine, though I have never liked any Glocks.
The XD series is a lot more comfortable, and I feel the XD45 is one of the best double stack .45s designed.
Still have lots of love for the 1911s.
When it comes to stopping power all pistol calibers are underpowered. Shot placement is the most important thing.

And to answer the thread question....
No, GAP will never take it. I would say in 10 years it'll be another .41AE.

 

[ashtxsniper]

I outgrew my 1911's long ago and bought a 10mm a true manstopper in a carry sized handgun with a 15rd capacity.

 

[Sid Post]

That may be what they originally thought, but experience with the .40 has lead to the increased use of 135-155gr bullets at higher velocities than the 180 grainers.

I was specifically thinking of 155gr 40S&W as the best "blend" for me. Street use seems to support this. I still lean towards the 357 SIG for personal use however.

Heavy almost subsonic rounds don't seem to be effective in a lot of street uses.

 

[ashtxsniper]

I was specifically thinking of 155gr 40S&W as the best "blend" for me. Street use seems to support this. I still lean towards the 357 SIG for personal use however.

Heavy almost subsonic rounds don't seem to be effective in a lot of street uses.

155 grn remington hollow points are what I carry in my 40. next to double tap ammo they are the hottest on the market I have found with 500 lbs of energy which is more than the all but the extreme 45 acp loads.

 

[SIFU1A]

No one can predict the future with 100% accuracy. That is why gel is only, as you said, a predictor.

Case in point, the 147 and 148 grain JHP's in 9mm everyone was so crazy about that fell flat on its face on the street.

I understand gel gives us a better idea of where we stand than nothing at all, but ultimately you do not know how well something is going to work until you put the coal to it.

NASA can calculate all day long about the max speed of a new aircraft, but until they put it in the air and open it up it does not mean squat.

The Sanow studies, while not scientific, are not completely useless.

The study I would like to see on any given bullet/ammo combo would be one in which all info concerning every shooting were presented to you to peruse at your leisure. I don't care if one case had a one shot stop, and one case had a 20 round failure.

Lay all the info on the table and let the buyer decide.

147gr 9MM are very popular with LEOs right now ya are thinking of the old black talons from 15 yrs ago, the new ranger/golden sabre and gold dot 147s work just fine.

i would say sanows info is useless as a lot of the "interviews" he speaks of never happened, and the percentages he speaks of about "stopping power" the numbers simply dont add up. sanow and marshall are the laughingstocks of the ballistics world, if ya want i'll be glad to post some links for ya.

if the bullets that expand in gel expand in flesh and those that dont, dont, what more do ya need to know? either the do or they dont.

a lot if not most departments dont publish the info your research would require.

if the DOD and FBI is satisfied that gel is accurate why wouldnt you be??

 

[victory]

I was going to respond but the above post did a fine job.

Let me add that gel tests have been coroborated by autopsies in actual shootings. Fackler had an report on the 147gr winchester ranger in gel tests and autopsies from several police shootings using te same load, the expansion and penetration through the human body was nearly identical to the gelatin resunts. So, is that sufficient for, as you put it "putting the coal to it"?

 

[MORIMOTOM]

im sure many of you have seen this before.......

10 rules of a gunfight

1. bring a gun. preferably, bring at least two.

2. bullets dont work! anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.

3. only hits count.

4. if your shooting stance is good you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover/concealment correctly.

5. keep shooting until the threats no longer exist; then stay sharp.

6. if you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend.

7. in ten years nobody will remember what caliber, stance, or tactics you used. they will only remember who lived.

8. if you are not shooting you should be reloading.

9. accuracy is relative; most combat shooting standards will be dependent on 'pucker factor' more than the inherent accuracy of the gun.

10. someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have beat you to death with it because its empty!!!!!

 

[MORIMOTOM]

and i think "stopping power" is an overused phrase and unrealistic when discussing service calibers.

 

[Tim-Gabz]

I was a firm fan of the Glock 21 in ACP. With a Packmare grip my small wife was a fiend on the range and in the bush with it. It was too bulky for daily carry and I went 45 for IPSC and fell in love with the round.

The 9mm star that I had woke me up to the 9mm's excessive speed and lack of punch compared to a .38spl or 45ACP in an environment of the first shot is the most important.

I am currently in the market for the .40cal Glock for anti carjacking in RSA requiring constant carry in a situation where there are multiple targets.

 

[mete]

Tim-Gabz, what is the availability and popularity of the various handgun cartridges in your part of the world ?

 

[Tim-Gabz]

In Botswana handguns are nigh impossible to obtain. The crime is also very very low.

In South Africa most handgun calibers are available. I am aware that the .41 and the 5.7mm are difficult to get ammunition for. 9mm, .38spl, 357, .32ACP and 45ACP are very popular.

In South Africa, after the anti gun crowd got their fingers in the pie, there is a whole rigmorale in sitting exams, doing courses, justifying ownership and a very high refusal rate. As the Adage goes "out law guns and only the outlaws have guns" is ringing very true. It is very difficult to obtain or renew a firearm licence. Some of the reasons (mental illness, previous convictions, wife beating etc) are good but they can, without good cause, refuse a licence. One can appeal but it is lengthy and difficult.

I had several firearms in Zimbabwe and used them for competition. Small children did not mix with firearms and in moving to Botswana I sold them to fellow Zimbabweans. As I am working and travelling around South Africa the crime has made me reconsider. I don't know of anyone in our RSA office that has not been robbed at gun point this past year. RSA has a murder rate of 50/100'000p.a or 70 per day. Roughly the per capita rate of Iraq.

 

[TNRat]

I was going to respond but the above post did a fine job.

Let me add that gel tests have been coroborated by autopsies in actual shootings. Fackler had an report on the 147gr winchester ranger in gel tests and autopsies from several police shootings using te same load, the expansion and penetration through the human body was nearly identical to the gelatin resunts. So, is that sufficient for, as you put it "putting the coal to it"?

Again, I believe that gel testing gives us a good idea, but nothing beats street performance.

Companies talk all day long about how well a new hunting round works, but no one has interest until it goes to the field.

It has been my impressions that many LEO departments I have seen are getting away from the 9mm altogether. They are at least going to the 40 SW.

Many have gone to the 45. The local department has switched to Glock 21's for those that feel the pistol fits their hands.

I have been told by these officers the trend was brought about by lack of performance on the 9mm's part.

Of course all of this is irrelevant since, as Morimotom pointed out, all pistol cartridges are useless in comparison to a shotgun or rifle.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

another thing to remember, the north hollywood bank robbery/shootout was when agencies first started to consider larger calibers and rifles in patrol cars, as well as slugs for shotguns.

their 9mm's, .38's, and buckshot were useless against body armor and ak's. but the larger handgun calibers wouldn't have meant much there, the only thing they needed was rifles, which they actually had en route, but swat arrived and ended the confrontation.

 

[victory]

Again, I believe that gel testing gives us a good idea, but nothing beats street performance.

"street performance" as you put it, can not be scientifically studied as performance on the street is influenced by more factors than just terminal ballistics and it is IMPOSSIBLE to seperate these factors.

It has been my impressions that many LEO departments I have seen are getting away from the 9mm altogether. They are at least going to the 40 SW.

Many have gone to the 45. The local department has switched to Glock 21's for those that feel the pistol fits their hands.

I have been told by these officers the trend was brought about by lack of performance on the 9mm's part.

Your and their interpritation was incorrect. The move away from 9mm came after the FBI Miami Shootout where FBI agents were using lightweight 115gr 9mm ammunition as was the trend at the time. The lightweight ammunition tended to massively underpenetrate. There was then a switch to 147gr ammunition for greater penetration but at that time, hollowpoint technology was not allowing for expansion at slower velocities. That was over 15 years ago. Today, law enforcement agencies have switched to larger rounds based on outdated information as 9mm ammunition and modern hollowpoint technology is just as effective as any other service caliber.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

victory, good points, i had forgotten about the fbi/miami shootout.

again, imo, caliber is far less important than proficiency. carry what you are comfortable with, for me .45, and practice, practice, practice.

 

[mete]

Victory. 'not allowing for expansion at lower velocity' . NOT true.JHPs could and did ,years before Miami, be designed to expand at low velocities .I'll give you a complete discussion if you like .The problem was that while the ammo companies could design anything they didn't know what the cops wanted !! The benefit of Miami was that they finally got down to deciding just what was necessary in terms of expansion and penetration !!...The 147 adoption was based on stupidity ! Originally designed for a subsonic ,accurate round for a SMG [ MP5 ? ] with no criteria for expansion. There were those who though this was the perfect round for 9mm pistols . It failed terribly. Later versions were redesigned and work ok. All ammo is now designed to meet the FBI criteria. I ,and many others, still think the 115-125 is the best for the 9mm. I'll still take the 40 or 45 but the 9mm at least in +P form does very well.