Can .45GAP replace .45ACP?

tets in gel indicate that 115gr 9MM is the 2nd worst 9MM round made for SD, only the 90gr is worse, most "street" results also indicate this, the 115 does not penetrate enough for reliable use. +p and +P+ loads are simply worse than std pressure 9MM in this aspect with a 115gr bullet.

the 147gr olin super match (OSM) was designed as a round for elite units to use in sub guns and as stated was not intended to expand. ignorance, imho was the only reason it was ever adopted, of course to compare the OSM to the current 147s like the ranger/gold dot/golden sabre is like comparing apples to say jalapenos, totally different performance. the 124 and 127 gr 9MMs by ranger/etc are on the other hand pretty good and penetrate sufficiently, esp. in +p or +P+ form, but still dont perform any better than 147gr and being std pressure loads the 147s offer less recoil/faster follow up shots.

i'll be glad to post links/discuss in depth if ya like.

i agree pistols suck for SD i'll take my AKM or M4 anyday vs a pistol but i dont pack my M4 everywhere i go. ammo is expensive so if ya are gonna buy it and spend the $$ ya might as well get something which works well (ie 147gr 9MM) vs something which does not (ie 115 gr 9MM), other calibres also, of course ammo selection isnt as critical in .45ACP as say 9MM but ya still might as well get the good stuff vs the bad.

as far as use by LEOs the 9MM is far from being dead, and with proper ammo the 9MM will do anything a .40 will, or a .357SIG, or a .45ACP, or 10MM/etc.

if they (ammo companies) had the technology to make bullets that reliably expanded at handgun velocities pre 1990 why didnt they do it?? why was it not the thing to do then and now all of a sudden its the hot ticket?? because they didnt have the technology to do it, thats why.
 
We did various tests on 9mm and 45ACP including light heads 175gns and compressed loads on the 45ACP. Damp telephone directories on toy rails on a friction compensated slope.

I just recall that the 9mm FMJ used to zip through things imparting precious little energy meaning that you had to be sure of a kill zone on a wired moron. The high speed 45 was not much better.

Dome head cast lead bullets were always good. The hollow points better but not that reliable over 10m. What was awsome where the 185gn 45 heads that were of plastic hollow point containing compressed lead balls and an aluminum back ontop of a compressed load. Coming out of a Glock 21 at 1150f/s the destruction was gratifying. Over 10m they were very unpredictable.

I just would not be happy relying on a 9mm.
 
tim, "energy transfer" is an insignificant wounding mechanism in handguns. Every round, 9mm, 40, 45 or other MUST impact a vital structure destroying the CNS or causing enough blood loss to incapacitate.

The 45 load you discribe would probably fragment and fail to reach vital organs. While it may look impressive fired into a phone book, phone books are not a suitable replacement for calibrated ballistics gelatin and not indicative of what a round would do in a human body. Prefragmented handgun ammunition is a terrible choice for self-defense.

on the 147gr 9mm issue, the current breed of gold dots and winchester ranger's penetrate an average of 15" (meeting or exceeding most 40 and 45 caliber loads) and expanded to over .65" in gelatin tests. They are the best loads currently available in 9mm. I've carried both winchester ranger in 127gr +P+ and 147gr and went with the latter based on less recoil, less wear, faster follow up shots and superior terminal ballistics. while the lighter ammo did expand to a slightly larger diameter (.68"), it penetrated approximately 2-3" less on average, while still above the 12" i will always opt for more penetration.
 
Yes the point is expansion AND penetration.The best low velocity expansion I saw was the original Speer 45 "coffee cup' bullet which wou expand on anything but would fail to exit on a spine/shoulder shot on a 'chuck. I also had an original 9mm Nyclad that failed to exit a rabbit and opened to .75" !! So again you can design anything you want. An interesting round that doesn't work quite like the standard JHP is the Corbon DPX [Barnes all copper bullet] which gives an excellent expansion/penetration combination ! I'm carrying that in .40 .I pay no attention to 'energy' figures ,you need to penetrate into the vitals and do damage to them.
 
I'm gearing up for some gel tests within the next month. I hope to get my hands on some expanding full metal jacket to test. There is also a 115gr +P+ powr-ball for 9mm that I would like to try. I'll be performing mostly 9mm and
.45 test and I do take requests.
I should be recieving a Zt200 for the pass around in this time frame, maybe I'll cast a gel for stabbing and slashing tests.
 
Tim-Gabz said:
We did various tests on 9mm and 45ACP including light heads 175gns and compressed loads on the 45ACP. Damp telephone directories on toy rails on a friction compensated slope.

I just recall that the 9mm FMJ used to zip through things imparting precious little energy meaning that you had to be sure of a kill zone on a wired moron. The high speed 45 was not much better.

Dome head cast lead bullets were always good. The hollow points better but not that reliable over 10m. What was awsome where the 185gn 45 heads that were of plastic hollow point containing compressed lead balls and an aluminum back ontop of a compressed load. Coming out of a Glock 21 at 1150f/s the destruction was gratifying. Over 10m they were very unpredictable.

I just would not be happy relying on a 9mm.
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how bullets perform in wet newspaper only proves one thing how bullets perform in wet newspaper. it simply doesnt translate to gel or flesh.

except in limited scenarios pre-frag bullets arent reccomended for duty use they dont offer enough penetration.

after looking at gel tests and at what LEOs use i'm completely satisfied with 9MM as long as it has good ammo ie ranger or gold dot.
 
Again, feel free to test in gel all you like. I will always read those results with interests. Nothing, however, will replace talking with someone that has actually used the equipment, whatever it may be, in the field.

Gel testing is what brought us the 147 grain round that almost no one wants anything to do with today. It has also brought us the 180 grain 40 loads that have had such bad performance.

Lab testing under controlled conditions is just that. It gives you a starting point. You don't know how anything will perform until you go the field.

BTW, whatever the reason for switching from 9 to 45, the switch is being made. The 9 has better performance today b/c ammo makers have made adjustments, but it sucked bad enough in the past that it was dropped by many.
 
you're just gonna keep repeating the same stuff no matter how many times we correct you with facts. I'm done.
 
the 45 gap is a good round but it will never replace the acp the ten mm is also a great round but they really messed it up shortening the case to make a 40 s&w
 
i dont like 9 mm so do't get me started on that my favorite gun i have is a 460 s&w with a 5 inch barrel
 
Terry Newton said:
Again, feel free to test in gel all you like. I will always read those results with interests. Nothing, however, will replace talking with someone that has actually used the equipment, whatever it may be, in the field.

Gel testing is what brought us the 147 grain round that almost no one wants anything to do with today. It has also brought us the 180 grain 40 loads that have had such bad performance.

Lab testing under controlled conditions is just that. It gives you a starting point. You don't know how anything will perform until you go the field.

BTW, whatever the reason for switching from 9 to 45, the switch is being made. The 9 has better performance today b/c ammo makers have made adjustments, but it sucked bad enough in the past that it was dropped by many.
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and how many folks do ya get a chance to talk to who have "used it in the field"??

i dont often run into gunfight survivors myself, i run in the wrong crowd i suppose.

i would say the big switch for LEOs is 9MM to .40. its more the military going back to .45 and thats only spec ops.
 
Perhaps some real world testing might be beneficial to this discussion, try this link: http://www.theboxotruth.com/ where you'll find all manner of interesting tests.

As to the viability of the 45GAP, the fact that it means new mags, new reloading components, is a non-standard caliber (meaning less availability in a SHTF situation) and is less effective than my current inventory of 45acp firearms means unless your a collector there's really no reason to even consider the caliber.

Like the S&W Mod 1006 10mm, (which I have one for the reason stated above) the 45GAP will be relegated to the "flash-in-the-pan" category of firearms.

mike

ps - fwiw though, as a long time NRA certified instructor I probably don't no shit compared to the experts above poo-pooing gel testing and known data from experts in the ballistics field.....
 
The one thing that I don't like about gel testing is it doesn't take into account the hydrostatic pressure changes when entering a body cavity, as well as the temperature change.

But, when TSHF, make sure that you're familiar and can hit well with whatever it is you carry.

Edit: I forgot to add that I'm going to be ordering some of the 124 gr. +P EFMJ to see how I like it. Right now, I just use 147 gr. Speer Gold Dot in my BHP.
 
9mm isnt hot enough for me for edc so when I want to carry a 9mm caliber weapon (.356) I carry a 357 magnum or a 357 sig.
 
I may eat my words but I believe the 45 GAP is just a fad cartridge that other than Glock, won't really catch on. I must ask the question...Why???

When I buy firearms anymore, I look at not only ballistics and performance but availability as well. When looking at a Sig P239, I opted for the 40 cal. model over the 357 Sig. Why? Ammo availability and believe it or not, the cost of ammo.

Why do I do this? More than a few years ago, being new to rifles at the time, I opted to get a 25.06 over a 270 for a number of reasons but that isn't important... What I found out is that most stores only stock one, maybe two different loads of 25.06. Looking for 270, well, there are boxes and boxes of that caliber, whatever flavor you want and a whole lot less expensive. To the average deer hunter (like me), there isn't a smidgen's bit of difference between the two calibers but on paper, well the 25.06 shoots a whole lot flatter. The longest shot I made with that rifle? About 350 yards. Heck, anybody can do that.

Anyway, that is my reasoning for sticking to "standard" rounds. Soooo....to answer the question...

No the 45 GAP will not replace the 45 ACP, ever.

Craig
 
The GAP is loaded to standard pressure to achieve the ballistics of the ACP.
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The GAP must be loaded to +P pressure to get the same ballistics as standard ACP. This is true because the GAP uses a shorter, thicker case with less capacity than the ACP. If the GAP were loaded to the standard pressure of the ACP, it could not achieve the same ballistics.
See http://www.speer-bullets.com/pdf/45GAP Tech Brief_150dpi.pdf
 
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