Can we bring khukuri into National Park?

[christcl]

Hi folks,

I'm planning a trip up to Sequoia/King's Canyon National Park in late August and being loath to going anywhere rugged or outdoors without a proper knife, want to bring my M43 with me. Will that be permissible if I strapped it to my backpack so its visible when we hike trails?

Thanks in advance for any advice, stories or experiences.

 

[wildmanh]

To the best of my knowledge it is perfectly alright for someone to carry a large knife in a national park as long as you are responsible with it. By the way, I've done some back packing in state and national parks. My 15" Sirupati was strapped to the out side of my pack. Never had a problem carrying it. The M43 is bigger but as long as you don't do anything to draw attention to it, you should be fine. 4 years ago I carried my SOG Tech II on my hip in Zion National Park. Was in a custom sheath I made for it. Only thing I heared from a person or two was "Nice knife".

Heber

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

I know of nothing that would prohibit taking it along. Just be aware that the forest service frowns on chopping stuff up!

Andy

 

[fearn]

To clarify, it's the National Park Service that controls the parks, not the Forest Service, and NPS Rangers do carry guns. According to The Sequoia and Kings Canyon Rules and Regs , you need a permit to carry a weapon. Check under 'all activities requiring a special use permit'

The bigger question is, what on earth are you thinking of chopping in a National Park? It's not like you can stop wherever you want and cut up a log for fire wood. If you want to carry in Sequoia, you may want to come up with a good answer for that, because you'll probably need it to get the permit.

Remember, National Parks are protected places. If you want to carry a khukuri unrestricted, go to a National Forest. If you want to wander around the forests in the southern Sierras, I'd recommend carrying a gun as well as a khuk, because there are stories of large marijuana plantations in the back country 'round there. Sad but true.

F

 

[Wolf_1989]

We live next door to a Sate Park & Wildlife Area.

I almost always have a khukuri on me, and all mine are 20"+.

I've encountered the local Fish&Game boys a few times and their only reaction to a large khukuri was curiosity.

 

[munk]

I would check first, but it's NOT against regs to carry a khuk, and the poster who asked why you'd carry a khuk in a national park has it backwards when he then linked them to firearms carry and 'weapons permits'. A knife, a large knife, is not a gun and not restricted in the same way. Axes and large knives have been permissable every national park I'm aware of, including Yellowstone which I'm next to. A couple years ago I think it was Mau Rob who carried a khuk into the Grand Teton national park. While it's true you can't chop anything, though I imagine there are wood gathering legaliities and plans that might allow you to do just that- when out of fire season, there is a place for a khuk. Let me share an example:

I went to Big Bend National PARK some years ago because I wanted to see the desert. We stayed at the lodge at the only mountain range, pretty high up. I'd left my khuks behind because the logistics of passing a khuk through all the new paranoid airline procedures post 9-11 was daunting. We knew of the cougar risk, of course, there was literature everywhere and recent attacks on hikers were well known. There had also been thefts and the usual bad human actors. WE started on a hike to Window Rock, and about half way down into the small valley, we found a sign warning us about cougars. It said the big cats had been in this area and there had been an incident, and you were not to travel the trail at dusk or dawn, (best wildlife times in the desert) or to do so at your own risk. Small children were advised not to be on the trail at all.

Let me get this straight- advise against hiking the trail alone, at dusk or dawn, and small children not at all? I told myself right then I'd never be without a khuk again in the national park. The Park service recently opened up the question changes to it's firearms policy, btw, but I believe they were inundated by animal rights groups and anti gun advocates and the policy regarding firearms may not change.

I picked up a large rock and continued hiking. I even wrote about it in these pages. There I was, high on a mountain top carrying a ROCK because I foolishly left my khuk behind. Never again. If there was enough concern about it to post a darn sign warning me then there was enough reason to carry a khuk.

So carry a khuk and be happy. Unless something has changed since I've been reading the regulations, (and please check) you can carry a khuk.


munk


HERE:

"(a)(4) Dead wood on the ground may be collected for use as fuel for campfires within the parks in the following areas:
All areas except:
• Kaweah River drainage, above 9,000 feet elevation.
• Kern River drainage, above 11,200 feet elevation.
• Kings Canyon National Park, above 10,000 feet elevation.
• Hamilton Lakes
• Granite Basin
• Nine Lakes Basin
• Those Sequoia groves, identified in §2.10 and §2.13 of this compendium, where wood fires are prohibited."


Dead wood is best bucked into firewood with a khuk, seems to me. It is against the law to chop standing trees or any thing like that.

 

[fearn]

Hi Munk,

I'll have to respectfully disagree with "wrong." The regulation said, "weapon." Now I happen to agree with you that this definitely covers firearms, but if you ask most of the people who are enforcing it how they define "weapon," you often get an "ummmmmm" and a blank look. Given that the definition of weapon may be discretionary, an overzealous ranger may call a khukuri a weapon. Hence, you need to have a reason to have it that has nothing to do with self defense.

I work for a private conservancy with an almost identical weapons policy, and quite honestly, if I saw a hiker with a khukuri, I'd call them on it and call the rangers. The only danger out here are bison and rattlesnakes, and if you're close enough to use a khukuri on a bison, you're already in way too much trouble to chop your way out. Rattlesnakes are to be avoided, not killed. Otherwise, you can't harvest wood here for a campfire (due to low supplies and high fire risk), so the major reason for a hiker to carry a khukuri would be to use it on someone else--it's a weapon, in other words. When I use my Ganga to cut things as part of my job, I make sure that everyone knows it's specifically designed as a wood cutter, and rarely let it out of my possession and never out of my sight.

Also, ALWAYS check local fire conditions. If it's code red, they may declare "no campfires."

As for cougar defense with a khuk...Are you throwing it at them? I've always preferred a long hiking staff, because a cougar's much faster than I am at close quarters, and I'd rather use a long staff and thrown stones to keep them at a distance. And yes, I've hiked at dusk in cougar country many, many times. If I get nervous, I carry said long stick over my shoulder, because cougars tend to attack by jumping you from behind and go for your neck, and the stick makes that attack much more complicated. A khukuri's not a great defense under such conditions.

If you're that nervous about cougars, I'd suggest getting one of the Cold Steel Bushman knives, as they make decent spear heads, and make a spear shaft/walking stick to go with it. Carry the spear shaft as a hiking staff, and the knife on your belt as a tool. If you get nervous about big cats, put the knife on the staff, and you have a pretty good spear.

 

[CallsThunder]

There's a lot of talk about this regulation and what it's for but I carry a khukuri every single time I'm backpacking...and canoeing. I just don't flaunt it in front of the rangers. It's a tool that can be used for many, many things...a weapon is one. To be honest I'm more concerned about two leggeds than four.

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

Hi Munk,

I'll have to respectfully disagree with "wrong." The regulation said, "weapon." Now I happen to agree with you that this definitely covers firearms, but if you ask most of the people who are enforcing it how they define "weapon," you often get an "ummmmmm" and a blank look. Given that the definition of weapon may be discretionary, an overzealous ranger may call a khukuri a weapon. Hence, you need to have a reason to have it that has nothing to do with self defense.

I work for a private conservancy with an almost identical weapons policy, and quite honestly, if I saw a hiker with a khukuri, I'd call them on it and call the rangers. The only danger out here are bison and rattlesnakes, and if you're close enough to use a khukuri on a bison, you're already in way too much trouble to chop your way out. Rattlesnakes are to be avoided, not killed. Otherwise, you can't harvest wood here for a campfire (due to low supplies and high fire risk), so the major reason for a hiker to carry a khukuri would be to use it on someone else--it's a weapon, in other words. When I use my Ganga to cut things as part of my job, I make sure that everyone knows it's specifically designed as a wood cutter, and rarely let it out of my possession and never out of my sight.

Also, ALWAYS check local fire conditions. If it's code red, they may declare "no campfires."

As for cougar defense with a khuk...Are you throwing it at them? I've always preferred a long hiking staff, because a cougar's much faster than I am at close quarters, and I'd rather use a long staff and thrown stones to keep them at a distance. And yes, I've hiked at dusk in cougar country many, many times. If I get nervous, I carry said long stick over my shoulder, because cougars tend to attack by jumping you from behind and go for your neck, and the stick makes that attack much more complicated. A khukuri's not a great defense under such conditions.

If you're that nervous about cougars, I'd suggest getting one of the Cold Steel Bushman knives, as they make decent spear heads, and make a spear shaft/walking stick to go with it. Carry the spear shaft as a hiking staff, and the knife on your belt as a tool. If you get nervous about big cats, put the knife on the staff, and you have a pretty good spear.

I don't think I have ever disagreed quite so completely with the entire philosophy of another person's post, as I do this one.

:thumbdn:

Andy

 

[fearn]

Feel free to disagree, Andrew. I don't particularly mind, because I know my philosophy works where I live and work. Years ago, I got over carrying weapons simply because I was paranoid.

Now, because I'm no longer walking around paranoid and acting like I'm ready to attack any threat, I can walk within 50 feet of a herd of bison (with a herd bull, and with cows guarding calves), while they keep grazing, rather than bluff charging, as they would a threat. Staying out of unnecessary fights was, is, and always will be the most effective form of self-defense. It's also a great way to see a lot of wildlife in a National Park.

This doesn't mean I don't carry a knife. I do, and I use it daily. To me, it is an incredibly useful tool, rather than something I carry around in case I have to kill things that might conceivably threaten me.

Right now, the biggest threat I face daily is dehydration, and if I have to carry a couple of extra pounds, it's more water, not a blade. Occasionally, I have to share that water, and it's usually with someone who's more afraid of trivial threats like rattlesnakes and bison, than they are of the heat exhaustion that's caught them halfway up the mountain.

So by all means, come hike here, Andrew, and bring the biggest khuk you can carry, if it makes you feel better. The khuk's weight will cause you far more misery than anything you'll find out here, but it's a small price to pay for psychological security.

F

F

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

I'm afraid you miss my point, and I'm pretty certain there is just too large a chasm to cross, but I'll try;

I don't care what anybody carries when they hike in the National Parks or when they walk at the mall. It's their burden, and unlike you, I don't assume the worst if they do.

You clearly feel that YOU are completely qualified to carry a large khuk when you are going about your business. And yet, if someone else is going about their business, you feel the need to invoke "Authority!".

Perhaps you feel that your plan for fending off potential dangers is fine for you... and yet, at the same time, you feel qualified to make the same judgments for others.

That, and only that, is the philosophy I disagree with.

The OP simply asked about bringing a khuk with him on his hike. He said nothing about its use as a weapon, or anything of the kind. Perhaps he just would like to take pictures of it in a natural setting. Perhaps he feels that he will never use it, but will feel better having it, just in case.

I can't fault him for that. Remember that it's your own subjective feeling about the POTENTIAL use of a khuk as a weapon that rubs your hide. But a hatchet is a POTENTIALLY deadly weapon also, but I doubt you'd bat an eye at a Gerber camp hatchet dangling from someone's backpack.

Andy

 

[munk]

The good news is I've carried a khuk in many national parks, as have many here.
I would feel badly if a forumite reading this thread decided against carrying a khuk because another poster who is unable to site a specific regulation has inferred they're illegal or need a special permit. Just to be sure, when Maui Rob entered Teton, he'd already asked the rangers and the khuk was fine.
There are state laws enforced in National Parks, so it would be wise to double check both park and local regulation- know your campground- fire rules and wood gathering regs.

Andrew, I thought your posts were very respectful, and deserve a compliment for having tried.


munk

 

[Ad Astra]

Discretion... just carry the khuk in your pack. It's a tool, not a weapon and if a "man" or cat attacks without a moment's warning, it won't help anyways. Neither will the rock.


Mike

 

[Gatogordo]

Hi Munk,

I'll have to respectfully disagree with "wrong." The regulation said, "weapon." Now I happen to agree with you that this definitely covers firearms, but if you ask most of the people who are enforcing it how they define "weapon," you often get an "ummmmmm" and a blank look. Given that the definition of weapon may be discretionary, an overzealous ranger may call a khukuri a weapon. Hence, you need to have a reason to have it that has nothing to do with self defense.

I work for a private conservancy with an almost identical weapons policy, and quite honestly, if I saw a hiker with a khukuri, I'd call them on it and call the rangers. The only danger out here are bison and rattlesnakes, and if you're close enough to use a khukuri on a bison, you're already in way too much trouble to chop your way out. Rattlesnakes are to be avoided, not killed. Otherwise, you can't harvest wood here for a campfire (due to low supplies and high fire risk), so the major reason for a hiker to carry a khukuri would be to use it on someone else--it's a weapon, in other words. When I use my Ganga to cut things as part of my job, I make sure that everyone knows it's specifically designed as a wood cutter, and rarely let it out of my possession and never out of my sight.

Also, ALWAYS check local fire conditions. If it's code red, they may declare "no campfires."

As for cougar defense with a khuk...Are you throwing it at them? I've always preferred a long hiking staff, because a cougar's much faster than I am at close quarters, and I'd rather use a long staff and thrown stones to keep them at a distance. And yes, I've hiked at dusk in cougar country many, many times. If I get nervous, I carry said long stick over my shoulder, because cougars tend to attack by jumping you from behind and go for your neck, and the stick makes that attack much more complicated. A khukuri's not a great defense under such conditions.

If you're that nervous about cougars, I'd suggest getting one of the Cold Steel Bushman knives, as they make decent spear heads, and make a spear shaft/walking stick to go with it. Carry the spear shaft as a hiking staff, and the knife on your belt as a tool. If you get nervous about big cats, put the knife on the staff, and you have a pretty good spear.

This guy must be in California. If not, he should be.

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

I thought this was interesting:

Years ago, I got over carrying weapons simply because I was paranoid.

Now, because I'm no longer walking around paranoid and acting like I'm ready to attack any threat, I can walk within 50 feet of a herd of bison (with a herd bull, and with cows guarding calves), while they keep grazing, rather than bluff charging, as they would a threat. Staying out of unnecessary fights was, is, and always will be the most effective form of self-defense. It's also a great way to see a lot of wildlife in a National Park.

This doesn't mean I don't carry a knife. I do, and I use it daily. To me, it is an incredibly useful tool, rather than something I carry around in case I have to kill things that might conceivably threaten me.

The khuk's weight will cause you far more misery than anything you'll find out here, but it's a small price to pay for psychological security.

F

I get the feeling that fearn believes that the mere possession of something that could potentially be a weapon will make a person paranoid. That, to possess a khuk would make someone more likely to, for no good reason, attack another person or an animal.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it also seems that he believes that animals can somehow sense whether a human is in possession of a potential weapon, and if we aren't, they will somehow be more patient, accepting, and harmonious with us.

I think that "Grizzly Man" who got himself and his girlfriend eaten a few years back had the same mentality.

Andy

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

Discretion... just carry the khuk in your pack. It's a tool, not a weapon and if a "man" or cat attacks without a moment's warning, it won't help anyways. Neither will the rock.

Mike

True enough!

Andy

 

[greenwoods]

What, me paranoid?

When I cook at the grill, in our yard, the squirrels peg me with hickory nut shell shards. I hear 'em whispering that they are looking for some coconuts!


Mark

Seriously though, I was eyeballing the Kings Canyon Nat Pk official website and I read through the Rules and Regs PDF and there was a lot of language that stressed the need to be well prepared and self-sufficient, careful in wilder areas...etc. I couldn't find any specific details relating to knives or any edged tools. The closest relevant info was for fishing permits, and I have to imagine that would include cutlery used to clean and prepare fish.

Just me 2 centavos

 

[munk]

I've written the National Parks Service about carrying a knife. Tomorow I'll call Yellowstone and see what they say. This thread hit a nerve- and I don't want anyone injured by a Aparatchik working for the Park Service because of carrying a khuk, so I'm going to see what is current.

There was a dust up about the Park Service changing the rules to 'weapons' instead of simply 'firearms'...I read something about it and assumed it would have been resolved in sanity. But I forgot I didn't live in THAT America any longer, I lived in a asylum where anything illogical might happen. I live with this:

"...and quite honestly, if I saw a hiker with a khukuri, I'd call them on it and call the rangers." fearn

This is what he said, and this rings true for today's America. He carrys a khuk in his work for a nature type conservancy, but would do this to anyonelse. This is why our institutions are out of control, because of the 'us' and 'them' laws passed, and in this case, regulations by non elected officials.

If the National Park service changed the regs to 'weapons' instead of 'firearms', you could get in trouble at the discretioin of the officer. Imagine that. And this poster approves. Then he goes on to say this:

" So by all means, come hike here, Andrew, and bring the biggest khuk you can carry, if it makes you feel better. The khuk's weight will cause you far more misery than anything you'll find out here, but it's a small price to pay for psychological security." fearns

And still this: "If you're that nervous about cougars, I'd suggest getting one of the Cold Steel Bushman knives, as they make decent spear heads, and make a spear shaft/walking stick to go with it. Carry the spear shaft as a hiking staff, and the knife on your belt as a tool. If you get nervous about big cats, put the knife on the staff, and you have a pretty good spear."


So he's told Andrew to carry a khuk, and myself a SPEAR, but that weapons are restricted in the National Parks??? This suggests to me he knows 'weapons' meets a narrow criteria not encompassing khuks- but I will find out because I don't want to give bad advice that could get someone in trouble.

As for the rest- with or without a tool, the poster assumes others do not enjoy wildlife, have gotten close, and are 'paranoid', but that he's 'outgrown' that.

I've never seen a poster so badly underestimate the people he's sharing a forum with. There are, or have been experts from all fields in HI forum, including scientists and forest rangers. There are also just a lot of very smart and open hearted individuals who would never assume carrying a tool was something to outgrow and brag about.

btw, as a cougar attacks from the rear or above and is a ambush hunter, a stick is not the best defense unless you see him prior to being jumped. If you can manuver and have a stick, fantastic, but most people attacked by cougars have them around their necks, and you are not going to be able to see the cougar first. Once attacked, a blade is probably your best option unless you have a sidearm. Though a cougar is going to be fast and powerful, he is not going to withstand a single khuk strike. He will leave. The odds of being attacked by a cougar are remote, but unfortunately, exist, or the National Park service would not close trails. We could always ask the surviving California bicyclist whether or not he felt cougars were something to consider out of doors in the right habitat. I've been unwilling to risk my small chldren to cougars without some 'tool' being with us. Today's National Parks are also the scenes of crimes. I'd rather have a khuk by my side than be a statistic, and I trust the khuk a lot more than I trust some people.


munk

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

I've written the National Parks Service about carrying a knife. Tomorow I'll call Yellowstone and see what they say. This thread hit a nerve- and I don't want anyone injured by a Aparatchik working for the Park Service because of carrying a khuk, so I'm going to see what is current.

munk

Always the best policy!

Although, I can see some of the people who work for the Park Service needing to run to a dictionary and look up the word. Then they'll scratch their heads and dither... before coming to the conclusion that it isn't allowed, because if there is a question, it is easier to say "NO!" than "YES!"

Andy

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

What, me paranoid?

When I cook at the grill, in our yard, the squirrels peg me with hickory nut shell shards. I hear 'em whispering that they are looking for some coconuts!


Mark

Just me 2 centavos

Squirrels are shifty and dangerous characters. They should be watched closely!



Andy