Can we bring khukuri into National Park?

Hi Munk,

Let's get some things cleared up. One is that I live and work on Catalina Island, and when I carry a khukuri to work (twice to date) it is for clearing dead wood away from a fenceline and clearing weedy shrubs. Otherwise, the khukuri stays at home, because I need that pack weight for water, not a blade.

If you're hiking out here, the biggest threats are dehydration and falling on one of the steep slopes. A khukuri won't help you with either of those. There are bison and rattlesnakes around, but you can stay away from both with minimal effort. We provide firewood at the few campsites where you can safely have a campfire, and the vegetation is open enough that you don't need a khuk to bushwhack. If you need to carry something to feel safe, I'd recommend a heavy walking stick, and if you forget to bring yours, we sell them.

And our rangers are unarmed.

On the other hand, last year we did have a dive knife fight out here, with teenagers at a beach fighting over a girl. One person got medevaced, one person got arrested, and the Conservancy got sued for not stopping it, although we didn't find out about it until it was over.

What would you have me do if I came across someone out hiking, packing a big knife and looking paranoid? There are other people on that trail who also need to be safe. Yes, I'd call the rangers on him, but if they decided he was no threat, he'd finish his hike, and in any case he'd keep his knife.

And yes, I didn't reveal this before, because I don't like giving out personal information, such as where I live. However, the confusion is causing trouble.

If I was in your part of the world, Munk, I'd carry a khukuri as a matter of course. The point is to rationally evaluate the threats and determine what the best response. A khukuri is a heavy security blanket, and if carrying it makes the difference between heat exhaustion and a happy hike, I advocate not carrying one. If carrying a khuk provides benefits (for instance, for cutting firewood, camp chores, and the like), then the weight is justified.

As for what the National Park Service says, I'd like to know myself.

I do know, because I've asked, that many park employees (and Conservancy employees) haven't thought about what a "weapon" is, and that can pose a problem. If you have to deal with an official, the simplest answer (IMHO) is to say, "Weapon? What weapon? I use this for wood cutting and camp chores." This avoids the bureaucracy altogether and tells the official that you're interested in being peaceful and self-sufficient, rather than that you're a nut-job with a big knife.

Out here on Catalina, a khuk isn't necessary for wildlife defense, camp chores, or wood cutting, and that's why I'd talk to the rangers if you were visibly carrying one. If you want to come over and help me with weed control or brush clearance, that's a different matter. I'd be happy to have the help, and bring your khuks with you.

F

P.S.: As for cougars, I know how fast they move, and I disagree with you about using a khukuri for defense. I didn't grow up on Catalina, but I did grow up in cougar country. If you're jumped, it will be from behind, and you'll probably be on the ground with the cat on your neck. This isn't a good place to use a khukuri, even if you're carrying it free in your hand. Conversely, carrying a stick (or shovel, or spear) over the shoulder means the cat has to get around the stick to get to your neck, and if you have a smaller stabbing knife, you have something to fight with inside. That's what I use. The nice thing is that the stick is also good for things other than self-defense, so the carry weight is justified, whether or not I run into trouble.
 
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fearn said:
What would you have me do if I came across someone out hiking, packing a big knife and looking paranoid? There are other people on that trail who also need to be safe. Yes, I'd call the rangers on him, but if they decided he was no threat, he'd finish his hike, and in any case he'd keep his knife.

F
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Who is paranoid? :rolleyes:

Sorry, I'm not usually so hard on people, but.... really, cut folks some slack!!! I go out into the wilderness to get away from busybodies.... Look, why would you treat people who are out hiking the same way that you would treat them walking the street?

Andy
 
Fearns, people know about throwing stones at cougars on this forum. They're also aware of getting close to nature, with or without a 'weapon' or tool. If you wish to start fresh, I'd remove the 'paranoid' suggestion and the apologize to Andy and the forumites for the condescension. I would be happy to meet you on better footing.

I hiked around the Whitewater district of the San Bernardinos and the mojave desert in general for years alone without weapon or company. One day I ran into a group of people who thought I was stark raving mad to go there alone and risk the drug producers without some equipment. Finally, after that and a disaster preparedness training by the County of Berdoo, I got into firearms.

I'm not a knife person, but someone who loves HI khuks because they're simply the best outdoors device made. If I don't have a handgun, the khuk is the next best thing, and around here (Little Rocky Mountains) harvests wood as well. In many ways, a khuk is more useful than a firearm.

As you mentioned, there are cougars here. I've had fresh tracks across my own by hike's end many times, and new urine markings. I've come across blood sign in the snow, and seen a deer carcass held into the lower branches of a tree not 200 yards from the one roomed school house. There's a spot on the mountain behind my house where the cats used to rest, and they cross the canyon a mile behind that. Several years ago, one of the big cats jumped into a window at Hays. The people left their home and no one was hurt. Hounds chased a big Tom right behind my house, where he escaped them by jumping to a ledge, and the one seen at the mining gate 150 yards from my backdoor was said to be much bigger than the 170 pound specimens stuffed in the plumbing shop downtown. That's what Cougars run here- upwards of 170 pounds plus. A neighbor watched while one chased the deer out of his backyard, and another hates getting a new dog, because they're tired of listening to the sounds of shrieks as the canine is taken off into the woods for dinner by a cougar. Can you imagine that, listening to your dog beg for help, the sound getting smaller and smaller as it disapears into the timber at night?
I'm not particularly afraid of cougars, unless I corner one inadvertantly. I once chased one away by merely clapping my hands while hiking in San Bernardino. That's another story another thread. I asked Bart Travis once about the cats, and if anyone should know he would. He'd been a professional outfitter and cat hound man for 40 years. I wished he were still here- the cats knew fear of men then. But he broke his back at the Mine and moved into Great Falls. He knew cougars, and knew the BS and myths about them. They aren't particularly aggressive and will stay away. We all know that. But everyonce in awhile, that wont' happen, usually with a two year old Tom who hasn't a territory of his own and can't beat the larger males. Travis told me not to go far into the woods without something to put in my hand, and a gun is best.

They are everywhere here- the tracks are by the dumpster. Very large tracks. IF you read one of my former stories, you'd know one was watching myself and my sons when we climbed into a small canyon. They say whenever you enter cougar country you are observed, but you will probably never see a cat. Anyway, there are limstone cliffs all around, and they're full of caves. This is cougar country. I've been looking, but can't find many deer outside of Alder Gulch. I think the cougars got them.

I'm trying to remember- there are rattlesnakes on Catalina Island? Are there feral hogs? And apparently now bison. There's a bison herd at Fort Belknap.
Many of the ranchers have Bison. Every winter though they tear down the fences and move into the neighbor's lands, forcing a fight between neighbors...

I don't believe there's a cougar made that could respond to a single well made strike from a HI khuk of not less than 15". Cougars run when they're seriously injured. An injury is a death sentence for them. They also run if you throw rocks and stand up tall. We hope.



munk
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fearn

What would you have me do if I came across someone out hiking, packing a big knife and looking paranoid? There are other people on that trail who also need to be safe. Yes, I'd call the rangers on him, but if they decided he was no threat, he'd finish his hike, and in any case he'd keep his knife.


This is why i dont go camping at public parks. lol
 
fearn said:
A khukuri is a heavy security blanket, and if carrying it makes the difference between heat exhaustion and a happy hike, I advocate not carrying one.
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Others have covered your other quips well enough.
First of all, "security blanket" is very condescending and ignorant of you. Yeah, I know, people can't believe that some of us actually USE our big choppers and not just for felling trees. Then there's the "The more you know, the less you need." crowd who thinks you're a dolt if you carry a knife with more than 3" of blade. Neither is necessarily true.

But come on. Do you really think 3 pounds (talking a 20+ inch Ang khola here -- by far NOT the most common size) is the difference between heat exhaustion and not? That's just crazy talk.
 
Hi Andy and Munk,

I'm not going to apologize. I do distinguish between carrying a khukuri and looking paranoid, and if you're doing both, then yes, I do get concerned. This is particularly true out here on the island, where a khukuri isn't necessary for wood cutting, camp chores, or defense against wildlife. If you're carrying a khukuri and looking paranoid out here, then it's possible that you're a threat either to people or to the plants and animals that it's my job to protect. As I said before, what would you have me do?

If we met in the Rocky Mountain back country, we'd probably start talking about the khuks we were carrying. Munk, I also agree with you about going armed out in San Berdoo (and probably in the southern Sierras, unfortunately). Basically, it's paranoid to carry a big knife in some places, normal to carry it in others, and insufficient to carry it in still others.

There's an important difference between rationally preparing for dangers and being paranoid, and so far as I can tell, most of the people on this list are rational responders, including both of you. If either of you were out here on the island, I'd guess that we'd get along fine. After you'd hiked 2.5 miles out of town and 1600' to the top of the ridge, you'd probably understand why I don't normally carry a khukuri out here.

As for the critters on Catalina, we have mule deer, bison, a few black-buck and rattlesnakes, island foxes, and ground squirrels. All the ungulates were introduced in the 20's (deer and black-buck for hunting, the bison as part of a movie and as a tourist attraction), and the rest are native here. There used to be cattle, sheep, goats, and pigs, but they've all been removed. And yes, Munk, our bison tear through fences too. This is one of my biggest problems, because the deer kill some of our island plants through browsing (particularly browsing seedlings), and the state only allows us to control the deer through recreational hunting and fencing off the rare plants. I'm responsible for maintaining that fencing. If you want to know more, let's move over to the cantina.

So far as disabling cougars go, I agree that a single strike from a large khukuri would disable a cougar. The problem is getting that strike in, particularly if you've been jumped, because the cat's faster than you are, and if you're in range with the khukuri, the cat's in range with its claws. I think it's better to work on preventing the attack in the first place.

F
 
Cpl Punishment said:
Others have covered your other quips well enough.
First of all, "security blanket" is very condescending and ignorant of you. Yeah, I know, people can't believe that some of us actually USE our big choppers and not just for felling trees. Then there's the "The more you know, the less you need." crowd who thinks you're a dolt if you carry a knife with more than 3" of blade. Neither is necessarily true.

But come on. Do you really think 3 pounds (talking a 20+ inch Ang khola here -- by far NOT the most common size) is the difference between heat exhaustion and not? That's just crazy talk.
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Hi Cpl Punishment,

Let me be more definite: if you're carrying a khukuri because you're expecting to get jumped (say by a theoretical cougar on Catalina), then yes, it is a security blanket. Even in cougar country, you're almost certainly not going to be attacked, even if you're not carrying anything. I'm not saying don't carry, I'm saying that you should make sure that you're ready for the big threats (like dehydration, hypothermia, overheating, and the like) before you start worrying about the wildlife and other, less likely threats.

As for heat stress, I'll admit that I'm far from being a triathlete, but yes, three pounds can make a big difference, especially when you're carrying a pack full of field gear. Where I do a lot of my work, the slopes average around 30 degrees, and the island goes from sea level to 2000' in a mile. I've had to deal with heat exhaustion routinely, as has my assistant (who is a marathoner), and the single biggest problem we have with volunteers is keeping them from overheating while they work, and rehydrating them afterwards. Just last week, the sheriff (who's teaching the CERT class I'm taking) talked about having to get a liter of IV rehydration after miscalculating how much water he needed. Everyone deals with it out here. Three pounds is 1.5 quarts of water. I routinely go through 2-3 quarts, and I've seen volunteers go through five.

F
 
"Hi Andy and Munk,

I'm not going to apologize. I do distinguish between carrying a khukuri and looking paranoid, and if you're doing both, then yes, I do get concerned. "

But that wasn't what you said, was it? You said:

"So by all means, come hike here, Andrew, and bring the biggest khuk you can carry, if it makes you feel better. The khuk's weight will cause you far more misery than anything you'll find out here, but it's a small price to pay for psychological security."

and this:
"Years ago, I got over carrying weapons simply because I was paranoid.
Now, because I'm no longer walking around paranoid and acting like I'm ready to attack any threat, I can walk within 50 feet of a herd of bison (with a herd bull, and with cows guarding calves)"

..." you're that nervous about cougars, I'd suggest getting one of the Cold Steel Bushman knives, as they make decent spear heads, and make a spear shaft/walking stick to go with it. Carry the spear shaft as a hiking staff, and the knife on your belt as a tool. If you get nervous about big cats, put the knife on the staff, and you have a pretty good spear"
"...if you're carrying a khukuri because you're expecting to get jumped (say by a theoretical cougar on Catalina), then yes, it is a security blanket. Even in cougar country, you're almost certainly not going to be attacked,"

First it was khuks were illegal. Then those carrying them paranoid. You weren't paranoid because you were above it. Then you told Andy to carry one and myself a spear. I don't know how we could do that if it were illegal as you insisted. Now it's a small blade. Your answers change with every post. I told you a stick wouldn't work because the cougar would be around your neck, so next post you say a cougar will be on your neck and you need a small blade.
If one can reach a small blade, I'll take the chance I can reach a khuk. You on the other hand are going to stick to your posts. That's fine with me. Stick to them and let the readers decide how valuable they are.

Andrew C said it exactly right. It's none of our business what the other guy carries. It's his personal decision. Freedom is like that. Bureacrats who carry Ganga Rams but question hikers doing the same are not helping our world. There are shotshell cartridges sold all across the US for snake defense, never mind I hardly see the utility. If a fellow wants to carry a khuk for snakes that's fine by me, and he shouldnt' have to justify himself to you or a ranger. There are times in the Chaperal when you can't back out and if a snake were at your feet the best course would be to lop its head off. You can't do that with a small knife.

What works for one fellow might not work for another. I'm glad there's a variety of choices. If a small blade is the top animal defense with you by all means stick to that too.

munk
 
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fearn said:
Hi Munk,

Let's get some things cleared up. One is that I live and work on Catalina Island, and when I carry a khukuri to work (twice to date) it is for clearing dead wood away from a fenceline and clearing weedy shrubs. Otherwise, the khukuri stays at home, because I need that pack weight for water, not a blade.

What would you have me do if I came across someone out hiking, packing a big knife and looking paranoid? There are other people on that trail who also need to be safe. Yes, I'd call the rangers on him, but if they decided he was no threat, he'd finish his hike, and in any case he'd keep his knife.
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Hi Fearn, as I have posted earlier in this thread I've carried a "Bowie" knife into a National Park (Zion National Park) with out a problem. If you would like I can even show you pictures of trails I have cleared with a Khukuri in the National forests. I have also used a Khukuri to gather firewood where permitted in National Forests, state and national parks and in Wilderness areas. Again, where permitted to harvest wood for a campout. All perfectly legal things to do.

A few years ago I assisted my college group with the Cities help in doing some trail clearing along a river trail. My blade of choice was my 20" Sirupati Khukuri. It made quick work of over hanging branches and brush. Lots of the people pertisipating in the project used the Khukuri's I had brought (3 of them). The city had no problem with me using them. - - - - I grew up in Central Utah and practicly lived in the forest and mountains in the summer when I wasn't working. I love to head up the trails in the early spring as soon as the snow has melted and I can either get there on my mountain bike or by car. Sometimes it's before the forest service can get there and clear the trails. We get around 6 to 7 feet of snow in those areas every winter and 7+ feet this winter. Since I'm there before the forest service has cleared all the trails I have either a Bowie knife and Hatchet/Hawk or a KHukuri for trail clearning and fire wood gathering. Most places in Utah you can gather firewood for a campout or BBQ/Picknick as long as you use the dead wood there and don't take it home. Clearning an astablished trail is also permitted.

I've also assisted in Search and Rescue operations. Have carried lots of water, food and a large knife or hatchet on me while doing this. I always figured that if the person who is lost is trapped maybe he needs to be cut out of what ever he is trapped in. Just one more reason why I carry a Khukuri. Years ago it was a short matchette. Now like I said it's either a bowie and Hawk or a Khukuri.

You mention taking a Khukuri to work to clear dead wood and brush from fence lines and such. Guess what, Thats why I carry one too. So if you saw me carrying one thats what I'm doing too. And if you called the park service on me you'd have to call them on your self. I'm a responcible adult doing responsible legal things with my blades. Some one calling me out for it is being stupid.

I hike Wilderness areas a lot and even though half the year you can't or at least shouldn't (I'm using shouldn't to mean it's legal to do it but not advisable) I still have a blade on me. Mount Nebo Wilderness area is a good example. I carry a Becker BK-9 or SOG Tigershark and a saw. If you hike the area after a storm there could be debree on the trail. I'd rather be able to take care of it my self then hike the 3 to 6 miles down to the trail head, find a ranger, then hike back up to complete the trail. By the way, I carry 6 quarts or more of water on this trip. It's 6 miles of trail (one way) with about 1.2 miles of elivation climb. TRail head is about 5800 feet and the peak is 12,380 or so. On some trips in the national forest and wilderness areas I've cleared a trail then met a ranger on his way up to do it. Here is how the conversation went:

Park Ranger: I'm here to clear the trail but I'm not seeing a problem.
Heber: I came along some branches and brush blocking the trail and cleared it my self. Hope thats okay.
Park Ranger: No problem, I just wish I had known it was taken care of before I came all this way.

Last fall I was up Rock Canyon with a church group. We were doing a Dutch Oven dinner then devotional. We found out that fires were not allowed in the area so as we were leaving the fire marshal showed up to make sure that some crazy group wasn't trying to burn down the mountain. We never started a fire, we did have wood in the truck and Dutch Ovens but as soon as we saw the no fire sign we scrapped the idea, send someone to another park to make sure it still allowed fires then went there. Durring the waiting period to hear about the other park a "good semeritan" called the cops. We and the Fire marshells had a good laugh at the person who called. Nothing illegal was going on, but some one thought that it might even though you could tell it wasn't so the marshal came. If the person had minded his own business we would have been at the other park where you can have a fire much sooner and the fire marshal could have been at home with his wife and kids enjoying the movie and popcorn they were doing.

My point is, just because you see someone with a large knife, hatchet, hawk or other wood gathering tool which could be used as a weapon, don't assume that it is going to be a weapon. They could just have it to clear a trail or as others have sugested it could be for photographing in natural suroundings.

One more thing, check the last few Deals of the Day. Yangdu goes into the mountains on the weekends and takes pictures of Khukuris there before she sells them to us. I believe she has even done this in a National Park. Photographing Khukuri's in a national park or wilderness area. Sounds like a good use of a weekend to me.

Heber
 
just curious,how long a blade can i carry before being considered paranoid instead of prepared for chores...?
 
That depends if you're being interviewed by NBC or writing a article for GunsnAmmo.


I like the idea though; we'll add knife blade length to the DSM criteria for paranoid ideation.


munk
 
fearn mentioned that carrying a khukuri and being paranoid are not the same thing, but I have to admit when the two things come together I get nervous as well. If someone is acting normal and is carrying a large knife it doesn't bother me at all. If the same knife is carried by someone looking and acting like a crackhead then I'm concerned.

At the last Busse get together in San Jose, I was pulling several LARGE knives out of a bag at the restaurant we were eating in and many people passed by, but obviously we were a bunch of guys admiring knives, not planning an invasion and no one seemed concerned or called the cops. I found it funny because most of the guys were reluctant to display any knives until I pulled a couple swords and khukuris out and the cops didn't show up. It's all in how you behave for the most part. If you act crazy someone's going to call the cops. If you act normal, probably not.
 
since a big part of this conversation is in regards to what size of blade is appropriate on both a functional level as well as a psychological social perception, i'll weigh in.

functional:
all you need for the woods where your not staying a long time, and chances are that you aren't going to chop down tree's is something large enough to baton with. a sub 15" khukuri would do fine for this, even though I find the 12" khukuri's to be novelties when I compare them to my 18"ers. for the sake of functionality you don't really need more.

as far as fights with cougars, you will probably not get a strike in if a cougar pounces even if you see it coming. I'd go for a straight knife since all I'm likely to be able to do is stab the poor thing in the ribs since my arms will likely be roughly pinned down anyways. if you can get your arm to your waist to pull anything - it probably isn't going to get much farther then that.

psychological/social: I am more weary of people openly carrying blades then of those who have them, but I only notice them on the off chance when they bend over or their clothes brush against them. why? because I know better then to open carry a blade in public, or any instance where I expect sheeple to be present. it's common courtesy to try to avoid scaring those around you - whatever the reason they might be scared of you for. I see a boot knife on a guy wearing shorts, I see someone who either is socially unaware, or simply doesn't care - both of which can cause problems in instances of stressful social situations, any situation where tempers run high.

treat a national park like a lax government facility. if your gonna carry a "weapon" - wether it's a weapon or not, expect that at some point someone might hassle you about it. thats just how it is. if no one searches you, then you don't need to explain yourself. if someone asks you to explain - chances are your comments about carving, cutting or chopping wood will be met with the same response as in a lax government fascility - you don't really need to be doing it in the first place so please don't do it openly, or at all.
 
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tedwca said:
fearn mentioned that carrying a khukuri and being paranoid are not the same thing, but I have to admit when the two things come together I get nervous as well. If someone is acting normal and is carrying a large knife it doesn't bother me at all. If the same knife is carried by someone looking and acting like a crackhead then I'm concerned.

At the last Busse get together in San Jose, I was pulling several LARGE knives out of a bag at the restaurant we were eating in and many people passed by, but obviously we were a bunch of guys admiring knives, not planning an invasion and no one seemed concerned or called the cops. I found it funny because most of the guys were reluctant to display any knives until I pulled a couple swords and khukuris out and the cops didn't show up. It's all in how you behave for the most part. If you act crazy someone's going to call the cops. If you act normal, probably not.
Click to expand...

Actually, Ted, this is what fearn said - "I work for a private conservancy with an almost identical weapons policy, and quite honestly, if I saw a hiker with a khukuri, I'd call them on it and call the rangers."

"...saw a hiker..." Not, "...saw a hiker acting all paranoid....".

Look, I don't think I'm known for causing a ruckus on this forum, but I have to say that fearn's post rubbed me all kinds of wrong.

I hope that munk and I and others have maybe caused him to think about his own perceptions of others. And, I hope that it can cause him to be cautious of making snap judgments and causing other people needless trouble.

Andy
 
I understand your POV Andy and I'm definitely with you, but he did clarify later though. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, just as I would a guy packing a khuk on the trail.
I'm not going to apologize. I do distinguish between carrying a khukuri and looking paranoid, and if you're doing both, then yes, I do get concerned.
Click to expand...
 
According to the National Park Service, "the current regulation prohibits the possession of weapons in parks" and "the current regulation is found at 36 CFR 2.4. The current regulation defines “weapons” to include “firearms.” 36 CFR 1.4."
PDF of NPS Regs

36 CFR 1.4 states, "Weapon means a firearm, compressed gas or spring-powered pistol or rifle, bow and arrow, crossbow, blowgun, speargun, hand-thrown spear, slingshot, irritant gas device, explosive device, or any other implement designed to discharge missiles, and includes a weapon the possession of which is prohibited under the laws of the State in which the park area or portion thereof is located."
Title 36: Parks, Forests, and Public Property

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This was the quote that started the ball:

Fearns "To clarify, it's the National Park Service that controls the parks, not the Forest Service, and NPS Rangers do carry guns. According to The Sequoia and Kings Canyon Rules and Regs , you need a permit to carry a weapon. Check under 'all activities requiring a special use permit' and then: "I'll have to respectfully disagree with "wrong." The regulation said, "weapon." Now I happen to agree with you that this definitely covers firearms, but if you ask most of the people who are enforcing it how they define "weapon," you often get an "ummmmmm" and a blank look. Given that the definition of weapon may be discretionary, an overzealous ranger may call a khukuri a weapon. Hence, you need to have a reason to have it that has nothing to do with self defense.



That is not the case. You do not need a permit to carry a knife or khuk in the national parks. All state laws are still in effect, however. If I were concerned about running into a forest ranger who did not know his own law, I'd carry a copy of it in my pocket.

munk
 
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