Carbon steel vs 3v practical differences for large fixed blades

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maximus83

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When it comes to heavy work you do with a fixed blade, I'm a fan of carbon steel. I have a lot of these ranging from 5" up to large choppers, machetes, axes, and swords. When I consider these criteria for determining value--performance in a range of large-knife tasks, edge durability, blade strength/toughness, ease of field sharpening, cost of maintenance (cleaning and preventing corrosion), and initial purchase cost--quality carbon steel blades have a very excellent "value prop" for me.

Enter CPM3V as a leading alternative. Never tried it, but I see the rave reviews of 3V knives and a lot of the custom and semi-custom knife makers are using it. Obviously the claim is that it's worth the higher cost over carbon steel because it provides superior performance in some areas.

So, 3V advocates, tell me what I'm missing, what's the value prop of 3V. I just bought an ESEE Junglas 2 for $154, which includes a nice kydex sheath. From everything I've seen, a 3V knife of similar size and handle design quality, and including the cost of a decent kydex sheath, will be at least $250 on the low end and more likely between $300 and $400. I'm willing to be convinced, always looking for an excuse to spend $$ on a great fixed blade. :)

Assuming I buy a quality 3V large blade in a similar configuration, what practical improvements should I expect versus my ESEE? Will 3V slice better? Chop better? Will the edge last a lot longer? Can I get an equally strong knife but with thinner/lighter blade stock? Will it be just as easy to field sharpen? Will it resist corrosion a LOT better? Will it be a lot tougher in resisting lateral forces?
 
First of all, understand that 3V is classified as a carbon steel.

I'm going to guess that the big difference over a steel such as 1095 is that it has better edgeholding, and maybe stronger/higher toughness. But carbon steels are not outdated- 1095, O1, A2, 52100 are inexpensive steels that still perform well. They won't hold an edge as well as more esoteric steels but they are easy to sharpen in the field.
 
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Good point, I didn't realize 3V is still classified as carbon steel. But yes, I'm interested in contrasting it with the most common carbon steels you see in quality production large knives: 1055, 1075, 1095, 5160, 52100.

So the only significant difference is that 3V has better edge retention? And in trade-off, that the common carbon steels are easier to field sharpen?
 
I'm interested in this Q as well. CPM3V is supposed to be much tougher than the really tough steels like 5160 or A2. Yet it's supposed to have far better edge retention as well. So I would think that it's equally hard to sharpen. Seems to be about twice everything, twice as tough, twice the edge retention, and twice the price.

Is it worth it? I think it's only worth it in a fighting knife or sword. You're getting something that's almost impossible to break, which would be confidence inspiring if you were fighting for your life against another guy who's hell bent on ending your life. That said, I don't think it's necessary in a large chopper or survival knife. I've beaten on my Ontario RTAK II (5160) and Kabar BK9 (1095) and a few others. They're all intact, with the exception of a little edge damage on my BK9 from accidentally hitting a nail or two while breaking up some boards. I don't think knives like these would ever fail catastrophically, unless you do something crazy. So the toughness of CPM3V would be wasted money in a knife like the RTAKII, at least in my opinion.
 
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3V is most widely known for it's fantastic toughness and makes a good steel for larger knives or hard use knives as it can take a beating but still holds an edge well.

I would guess it would compare to 5160 steel in toughness but with edge holding closer to 1095, but I'm guessing here as I haven't used it. It's pretty common in bushcraft and similar type knives which is the only reason I know of them. I prefer stainless for the price of 3V and I simply haven't had the need for something as tough as 3V to this point I guess as I haven't had a knife chip out before with the exception of 8cr14mov serrations against nylon zip ties, zip ties won.
 
3V is one of the toughest tool steels available. It has 7.5% Chromium which helps with corrosion resistance. When maximum toughness is required, combined with very good wear resistance, 3V is a great choice. Even at high heat treat edge stability is very good. Even at the higher hardness you won't have edge dulling due to microchipping, which does happen for many alloys at the same hardness.
That was quoted from "Knife Steel Composition Chart"
From personal use, I find 3V to be better at edge holding and stain resistance than most other carbon steels except for Z-Ware. It's as easy to sharpen in the field as any standard carbon steel.
 
Ajack60 said:
From personal use, I find 3V to be better at edge holding and stain resistance than most other carbon steels except for Z-Ware. It's as easy to sharpen in the field as any standard carbon steel.
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Do you have to use any special stones for sharpening?
 
GrReaper said:
Do you have to use any special stones for sharpening?
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Since I have acquired the higher carbide stainless steels and tool steels, I've switched over to diamond stones for all my blades. The difference being that I don't use the same pressure when sharpening different steels. I've got a Big Chris bushcraft in 3V and have sharpened it on both the diamonds and aluminum oxide stones and haven't noticed a big difference in the time it takes to get a hair popping edge. When using the diamonds, I apply very little pressure because I don't want to remove any unnecessary steel.
So, no, you wouldn't need any special stone.
 
Nothing wrong with carbon steels. They make good knives, and they are cheap.

But 3V is something else. D2 is a great tool steel used by a lot of excellent knife makers. It has a fairly decent balance of toughness (resistance to chipping and breaking) and wear resistance. A2 is also a great tool steel that is well-known for its super toughness, although it doesn't hold an edge as well as D2.

With 3v, you get much higher toughness and very good wear resistance, which is not an easy combination to find. It will hold an edge better than either A2 or D2. But when you add in toughness, the other steels fall far behind. At 60 Rc hardness, the toughness of D2 is rated at 28 joules. A2 at that toughness, is rated at 53 joules. 3V at that hardness is rated at 95 joules.

So does toughness appeal to you, especially when it also comes with very good wear resistance?

Go to Alpha Knife Supply's website and it will say "3V is my favorite blade steel." This from a company that specializes in knife steels.

The toughness of 3v means that you can run your edge at a thinner geometry, and geometry is what cuts.

There are good, reasonably tough steels with better wear resistance when super high toughness isn't required. M4 and M390 and Vanadis 4E come to mind, and they have good toughness. But 3V is awesome stuff.
 
Twindog said:
The toughness of 3v means that you can run your edge at a thinner geometry, and geometry is what cuts.

There are good, reasonably tough steels with better wear resistance when super high toughness isn't required. M4 and M390 and Vanadis 4E come to mind, and they have good toughness. But 3V is awesome stuff.
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All very good and thanks for the charpy values. So, in your opinion, is 3V worth it for a large fixed blade doing heavy work? Are there large knives that have thinner edges that are just as tough as thick-edged knives made out of lesser steel, and do they perform that much better? I think that was the crux of the OP's Q and which I'm interested in as well.
 
GrReaper said:
All very good and thanks for the charpy values. So, in your opinion, is 3V worth it for a large fixed blade doing heavy work? Are there large knives that have thinner edges that are just as tough as thick-edged knives made out of lesser steel, and do they perform that much better? I think that was the crux of the OP's Q and which I'm interested in as well.
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Carbon steels tend to do well in the toughness category overall but the 3V steps it up a few notches. 3V is designed for heavy use. However, if you step over in the becker forum you will see a lot of very heavy use with kabar's cro-van 1095 which adds a touch of vanadium in the 1095 formula and an adjusted heat treat. Becker's also have a blade geometry that favors hard use as they are thick blade stock mostly.

If you're looking for a cheaper hard use steel then 5160 is a good choice but you'll lose some of the edge retention. 1075 is good for hard use as well and there are numerous axes made in 1075 or equivalent steel.

Since you mentioned Esee, you'll be hard pressed to find something better in that price range as they have the 1095 heat treat dialed in. You will find some as good but not much better. 3V is generally an improvement but is certainly going to cost more from what I've seen around looking at bushcraft knives.

Infini from busse is the only steel that comes to mind as a tougher option to 3V that still holds a nice edge but it's even pricier yet and the things people have to do to break a blade are well into the knife abuse category.
 
So based on responses this far, and a little extra reading I did, it seems like the main value prop items of 3V over carbon steel are: increased toughness, increased edge retention. I've also seen a few argue that it has increased stain resistance, which may well be true, but it's not clear to me if this is a significant difference--i.e. you'd still have to pay a lot of attention to the blade to keep it from rusting.

It seems like, comparing 3V to a quality carbon steel blade in 1095, it really boils down to as GrReaper said (being approximate here): twice the edge retention, twice the toughness, twice the cost.

Is this worth it? That's an individual question for folks to answer. For me, I'd say not right now. If I get a 3V blade I'll still have to do a lot of maintenance to control for rust, so it's not a game changing difference to me. On the "twice as tough" thing? Well I've beat the tar out of my carbon steel blades, and never broken one. I'm having a hard time imagining an application where I NEED that much toughness. If I did, than 3V might be the solution, but I don't. On the edge retention thing? Well that's cool, admittedly, but the thing is--I LIKE sharpening. Like a lot of people here, that doesn't bother me. If I had to sharpen every 15 minutes, that'd be too much, but my 1095 blades seems to have "good enough" edge retention that I can process a lot of wood or do a lot of work before I have to sharpen, and when I do, they sharpen super easily.

For me, 3V is a fascinating super steel and I will eventually get a fixed blade in it. Or just wait for the next super steel that leap frogs 3V. :p Today, for my uses, quality carbon steel blades are getting it done at half the cost and similar maintenance level, so it doesn't feel like I need it.
 
Wow, that is an interesting thread. Thank you, hugofeynman. So Cliffstamp thinks that 3V does not have improved performance in larger blades over the usual carbon steels. (see post number 2)

Also I didn't know that 3V only had charpy value of 54 ft-lb, while A2 is 40 ft-lb (see post 4/17/2015 by Bogdan M.) If that's correct, it's not quite as big a difference as I had thought. (I thought it was somewhere in the 80+ range.) I would think hard about paying twice as much for the same knife. I'm not sure what Rc hardness they were referring to though. I suppose optimizing heat treat would make a huge difference.
 
maximus83 said:
So based on responses this far, and a little extra reading I did, it seems like the main value prop items of 3V over carbon steel are: increased toughness, increased edge retention. I've also seen a few argue that it has increased stain resistance, which may well be true, but it's not clear to me if this is a significant difference--i.e. you'd still have to pay a lot of attention to the blade to keep it from rusting.

It seems like, comparing 3V to a quality carbon steel blade in 1095, it really boils down to as GrReaper said (being approximate here): twice the edge retention, twice the toughness, twice the cost.

Is this worth it? That's an individual question for folks to answer. For me, I'd say not right now. If I get a 3V blade I'll still have to do a lot of maintenance to control for rust, so it's not a game changing difference to me. On the "twice as tough" thing? Well I've beat the tar out of my carbon steel blades, and never broken one. I'm having a hard time imagining an application where I NEED that much toughness. If I did, than 3V might be the solution, but I don't. On the edge retention thing? Well that's cool, admittedly, but the thing is--I LIKE sharpening. Like a lot of people here, that doesn't bother me. If I had to sharpen every 15 minutes, that'd be too much, but my 1095 blades seems to have "good enough" edge retention that I can process a lot of wood or do a lot of work before I have to sharpen, and when I do, they sharpen super easily.

For me, 3V is a fascinating super steel and I will eventually get a fixed blade in it. Or just wait for the next super steel that leap frogs 3V. :p Today, for my uses, quality carbon steel blades are getting it done at half the cost and similar maintenance level, so it doesn't feel like I need it.
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For me the rust resistance of 3v has been very significant over 1095, a2, and O1.
hugofeynman said:
Read this:

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?24,43419
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I wouldn't put much faith in anything cliff stamp says. He's been banned here. The experts we have on this forum are far more trustworthy.
 
I have had many knives in 3v and it is probably my favorite knife steel. In my experience, edge holding is increased a substantial amount over typical commercial carbon steel knives. The real benefit to me is the edge stability. You can get away with much thinner edge geometry with 3V and that will make the knife a better chopper and slicer. In my experience, 3V is more corrosion resistant than it gets credit for. I have never had a 3V knife rust. Even forcing a patina in 3V is difficult. The only time I have had it stain was after I sliced up a large ham covered in mustard and purposely left it covered in mustard for quite a while. After cleaning it off you could see only faint discoloration in the right light. As long as it isn't bead blasted, I doubt you will ever have a corrosion issue with 3V.
 
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Depends on what you use the blade to do. Compared to something like 1055 or 5160 steel, the only thing going for 3v is higher wear resistance. For a rough use blade, I'd go with something like 1055, 5160, 1075, 8670, or perhaps even 4340. Rough use blades get damaged. They also see use that will dull any steel in one or 2 passes. If you can back off on the severity of use, it could be that 3V would be better.
 
3V will also have a definite corrosion resistance. I do think that many people over estimate how "rough" they will treat their knives though.... most carbon steels will be more than tough enough for most situations.
 
Cpm 3v is a great steel, no doubt, but in therms of toughness it's not in the same league as the S series, or even 5160, 6150, L6, A8mod, Infi, ... The new low temper heat treatments will increase toughness, sure, but a high carbide steel will never be as tough as simple low/medium carbon steels. So I would use cpm3v for a small/ medium knife and Shock resistant steels (S1, S7, ...) or 5160, 6150, A8mod for big knives. Wear resistant is not of great importance in a chopper and these steels will give peace of mind regarding toughness.
 
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