Carbon steel vs 3v practical differences for large fixed blades

me2 said:
Depends on what you use the blade to do. Compared to something like 1055 or 5160 steel, the only thing going for 3v is higher wear resistance. For a rough use blade, I'd go with something like 1055, 5160, 1075, 8670, or perhaps even 4340. Rough use blades get damaged. They also see use that will dull any steel in one or 2 passes. If you can back off on the severity of use, it could be that 3V would be better.
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Glad you are here, Me2! Never forgot this post you wrote years ago:

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?24,28854

This is like my toughness steel "bible".
 
3V will vastly outperform 1095 in essentially every way, with the exception that it will be more difficult to repair significant edge damage.

That said, if 1095 is adequate for your uses and you're happy with it, it doesn't make sense to pay for that extra performance.
 
As a knife maker and knife user, 3V is my overall favorite general purpose steel. Keep in mind my focus on high end knives is as field tools for hunting, fishing, camping, and bushcraft.

Pro's:
  • TOUGHNESS - This means I can feel good about using thinner blade stock to achieve a given level of toughness desired for a given task without the risk of catastrophic failure. This translates into a knife that slices better (thinner geometry), is lighter weight, and more compact without sacrificing durability.
  • Edge stability - This is significantly improved over other simple carbon steels meaning I can get by with thinner primary grinds improving the cutting/slicing ability without fear of it chipping out on me or warping.
  • Edge retention - While it's not the best, it is darn good and significantly better than most simple high carbon steel alloys. My typical 3.25" skinner in 3V drop point with a 0.010" edge thickness at 61 hrc will clean about 3 deer before I feel the need to touch up the blade. Most others at camp with simple high carbon blades are cleaning ONE deer and touching up the blade. Come time to touch it up, typically a simple stropping is all that's needed. It is more difficult to resharpen than 10xx series alloys but it is not a challenging steel to sharpen even for the average guy nor does it almost require special equipment like a CPM 10v might.
  • Edge quality - This steel works well with either a toothy edge or highly refined edge. It can be sharpened to 400/600 grit and stropped into a toothy edge that's better for skinning/game cleaning/etc where slicing is the primary cut or take a fully polished edge for woodcraft/carving/etc with push cuts. I can get it to literally split human hairs into three separate pieces lengthwise or give it a more utilitarian edge that holds up to skinning tough, gristly, dirty/sandy wild boars. Not all steels have such a versatility in the edge quality or type of edge that can be used effectively.
  • Stain resistance - This steel is somewhat of a "semi-stainless" in my opinion. It is technically a high carbon, but it survives the hot, humid environment of Arkansas, blood and food stains, and my acidic hands without/with minimal maintenance. I like to own and use things that just work, not constantly maintain them. Simpler high carbon alloys like the 10xx series, O1, etc just plain rust in the field or here in Arkansas can be oiled and put on a shelf and be rusty in a couple months WITHOUT use. I never worry about my 3V knives staining. They do develop a light patina over time, but don't go black and stink like vinegar the second they touch blood, tomatoes, avocados, etc.
  • Machinability - This comes from the knife maker in me but 3V just machines well and makes good looking knives. It is HARD on tooling (which is part of why it cost so much) and takes more time to grind than lots of other steels (which is also part of why it cost so much to produce), but it cuts, grinds, and takes finishes that are very clean and consistent. I've not found it to make a really pretty high polished and buffed finish but I find it makes a fantastic blasted, tumbled, stonewashed, scotchbrite, belt finish, and/or hand rubbed finish. That gives the maker a lot of flexibility in terms of refinement and aesthetics.
Cons:
  • Cost - Its expensive to buy, expensive to cut, expensive to grind, and expensive to finish. It's hard on tooling and requires more time to work than most steels.
  • Difficult to forge - This steel doesn't respond well or benefit from forging. That creates a practical limit to what it's well suited to design wise in a knife. For instance, I wouldn't use it to make a kris, integral, blacksmiths knife, or something like an x-rhea type design. It can do stick tangs but then you wind up buying a lot more steel than needed and cutting/grinding it away which again raises the cost.
  • Doesn't take a full polish well, relatively speaking. Since I don't do ornamental blades and full polish finishes are the hardest for users to maintain, this doesn't concern me as a maker or user but if you want a fully polished blade that may limit your decision to steels that do better with this finish type.
  • It can rust so it's not the best choice if absolute rust resistance is the primary concern. That said, I don't baby my knives, live in a humid area, and use them regularly in the kitchen and field without concern for staining.
 
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A2 is my staple... I've made more knives in A2 than anything else. It does well at 60-61 with cryo.
 
Points of consistency I'm seeing between folks in this thread and the external referenced threads:

  • For EDC and blades performing light tasks: the various cpm and modern stainless steels are fine. You could do these in 3V, but it won't have as good corrosion resistance as something like S35vn or M390, may not have as good edge retention, and you won't benefit from the added toughness because you don't use it.
  • For hard use utility/survival/tactical blades: this is a good application for 3V as the stresses on these blades benefit from the tougher steel. Good examples of blades in this category are some of the Survive knives, and the new Ambush series by Bark River.
  • For large chopper blades: 3V can work, but it's probably overkill as the various simple carbon steels perform equally well at chopping tasks and are more cost-effective.
 
It seems to me that 3v is such a hit because you get both a higher level toughness and edge retention/stability in one steel. 3v is also very versatile in terms of heat treat protocols.
 
If there was a PM steel so tough or tougher than the toughest Ingot/ESR steels, Jerry Busse, Fredrik Haakonsen and Roman Landes would be using it. It's not the case, Jerry uses Infi, Fredrik A8mod and Landes S series for his hard use knives. Is it for lack of funds? I seriously doubt that. Any of the three could have 2-3 tons (or more) rolled for them in any size they want!
 
"Will 3V slice better? Chop better? Will the edge last a lot longer? Can I get an equally strong knife but with thinner/lighter blade stock? Will it be just as easy to field sharpen? Will it resist corrosion a LOT better? Will it be a lot tougher in resisting lateral forces?"

Keep in mind the slicing and chopping ability come down to edge geometry and knife stock thickness. If 3V vs something like 1095 were the same specs, 3V will be much less likely to chip or break and will definitely hold an edge longer than 1095 and most other carbon steels.

I could be wrong here but i do think 1095 is easier to sharpen but 3V isn't to bad either.
1095 is definitely a strong steel too, but as others have said 3V is definitely tougher. One of the toughest steels around, second to or equal with infi.

Is it worth it? Only you can answer that. It definitely is a better overall steel in probably every aspect.
Thats not to say that other carbon steels like 1095 are not good, theyre definitely more than adequate, but 3V takes steel to the next level giving you one of the best steels around. Its toughness instills a great deal of confidence in the user.
I personally think it is worth the price. I am a bit of a steel snob and prefer the best possible if I can afford. It is one of the most balanced and best overall steels around and lacks in no areas.

Another bonus is that it is quite corrosion resistant for a carbon steel. Muuuuch more corrosion resistant than 1095, in my experience.
I've owned 3x 1095 fixed blades and all rusted even when I tried maintaining and keeping them clean. I have a schrade model that has rusted like crazy. I dont care for blades that require ridiculous maintenance. Others will tell you that their 1095 is easy to manage but in my experience, its aweful. I have 52100 knife that is much easier to keep free from rust even though it is high carbon steel and low chromium. 1095 just is not acceptable in corrosion resistant department for me.

Lastly, when looking at 3V, HT is important. There are particular makers using their own proprietary HT which boosts its edge holding, toughness as well as corrosion resistance.
That is not by a huge margin, but a difference nonetheless.

Hope that helps!
 
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Great summary of the pro 3V points, and a helpful perspective. This has been a really helpful thread to see a lot of points and counterpoints.

Darn you pro 3V people, you've convinced me it's worth checking it out. :p So now I'm out looking at 3V knives.

Which reminds me: If I decide to try out a 3V chopper, what would folks recommend that would be a similar configuration to my Junglas? As in: 8" to 10" blade, high flat ground, strong tip drop point, etc. (Please don't tell me Survive Knives--love their designs but I'm totally not having the time for all that messing around and waiting and checking the newsletter, I'd be looking for something that's available).

XtianAus said:
Thats not to say that other carbon steels like 1095 are not good, theyre definitely more than adequate, but 3V takes steel to the next level giving you one of the best steels around. Its toughness instills a great deal of confidence in the user.
I personally think it is worth the price. I am a bit of a steel snob and prefer the best possible if I can afford. It is one of the most balanced and best overall steels around and lacks in no areas.
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My thanks to everybody here who enlightened this hillbilly.

If I may ask, does the new Delta 3V step up the 3V game that much?
 
This is awesome perspective from somebody who has worked with it. Another thoughtful, super informative post in this thread that convinced me it's time to try out a 3V blade.

gdpolk said:
As a knife maker and knife user, 3V is my overall favorite general purpose steel. Keep in mind my focus on high end knives is as field tools for hunting, fishing, camping, and bushcraft.

Pro's:
  • TOUGHNESS - This means I can feel good about using thinner blade stock to achieve a given level of toughness desired for a given task without the risk of catastrophic failure. This translates into a knife that slices better (thinner geometry), is lighter weight, and more compact without sacrificing durability.
  • Edge stability - This is significantly improved over other simple carbon steels meaning I can get by with thinner primary grinds improving the cutting/slicing ability without fear of it chipping out on me or warping.
  • Edge retention - While it's not the best, it is darn good and significantly better than most simple high carbon steel alloys. My typical 3.25" skinner in 3V drop point with a 0.010" edge thickness at 61 hrs will clean about 3 deer before I feel the need to touch up the blade. Most others at camp with simple high carbon blades are cleaning ONE deer and touching up the blade. Come time to touch it up, typically a simple stropping is all that's needed. It is more difficult to resharpen than 10xx series alloys but it is not a challenging steel to sharpen even for the average guy nor does it almost require special equipment like a CPM 10v might.
  • Edge quality - This steel works well with either a toothy edge or highly refined edge. It can be sharpened to 400/600 grit and stropped into a toothy edge that's better for skinning/game cleaning/etc where slicing is the primary cut or take a fully polished edge for woodcraft/carving/etc with push cuts. I can get it to literally split human hairs into three separate pieces lengthwise or give it a more utilitarian edge that holds up to skinning tough, gristly, dirty/sandy wild boars. Not all steels have such a versatility in the edge quality or type of edge that can be used effectively.
  • Stain resistance - This steel is somewhat of a "semi-stainless" in my opinion. It is technically a high carbon, but it survives the hot, humid environment of Arkansas, blood and food stains, and my acidic hands without/with minimal maintenance. I like to own and use things that just work, not constantly maintain them. Simpler high carbon alloys like the 10xx series, O1, etc just plain rust in the field or here in Arkansas can be oiled and put on a shelf and be rusty in a couple months WITHOUT use. I never worry about my 3V knives staining. They do develop a light patina over time, but don't go black and stink like vinegar the second they touch blood, tomatoes, avocados, etc.
  • Machinability - This comes from the knife maker in me but 3V just machines well and makes good looking knives. It is HARD on tooling (which is part of why it cost so much) and takes more time to grind than lots of other steels (which is also part of why it cost so much to produce), but it cuts, grinds, and takes finishes that are very clean and consistent. I've not found it to make a really pretty high polished and buffed finish but I find it makes a fantastic blasted, tumbled, stonewashed, scotchbrite, belt finish, and/or hand rubbed finish. That gives the maker a lot of flexibility in terms of refinement and aesthetics.
Cons:
  • Cost - Its expensive to buy, expensive to cut, expensive to grind, and expensive to finish. It's hard on tooling and requires more time to work than most steels.
  • Difficult to forge - This steel doesn't respond well or benefit from forging. That creates a practical limit to what it's well suited to design wise in a knife. For instance, I wouldn't use it to make a kris, integral, blacksmiths knife, or something like an x-rhea type design. It can do stick tangs but then you wind up buying a lot more steel than needed and cutting/grinding it away which again raises the cost.
  • Doesn't take a full polish well, relatively speaking. Since I don't do ornamental blades and full polish finishes are the hardest for users to maintain, this doesn't concern me as a maker or user but if you want a fully polished blade that may limit your decision to steels that do better with this finish type.
  • It can rust so it's not the best choice if absolute rust resistance is the primary concern. That said, I don't baby my knives, live in a humid area, and use them regularly in the kitchen and field without concern for staining.
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craytab said:
I wouldn't put much faith in anything cliff stamp says. He's been banned here. The experts we have on this forum are far more trustworthy.
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Everyone is free to like, dislike, agree or disagree with Cliff, but suggesting he was banned for misinformation or being untrustworthy is simply false.

He was actually banned for talking about how so much discussion here had devolved into silly arguments completely unhinged from metallurgy and driven by hype... :rolleyes:

Any one who wishes to do so can read more and find a link to the post he was banned for here:

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?4,4489,21762

Maybe this forum is better off without him defending unpopular positions and ruffling feathers. Maybe it's less interesting... I don't know. Still don't see any reason to distort the facts. :thumbsup:
 
^Helpful comment. I was also a little troubled by what seemed like an illogical approach: X has been banned from a forum, therefore don't put faith in anything that X says. People often get banned from forums just because they are rude and obnoxious and constantly stirring up nasty conflicts. Have seen it before in gun forums, really prominent people in the gun community getting booted because they could not keep their temper and the personal attacks in check. Sometimes mods have no choice but to ban certain folks to keep the peace. But....it does not follow that because somebody gets banned from a forum, everything he says is false.

Fortunately in this thread, seems like folks are being friendly and reasonable just discussing the pros/cons of simple carbon steel and 3V. Which is one of the things I like about BF, most members are pretty friendly and open to discussing things without turning it personal.
 
inkynate said:
Everyone is free to like, dislike, agree or disagree with Cliff, but suggesting he was banned for misinformation or being untrustworthy is simply false.

He was actually banned for talking about how so much discussion here had devolved into silly arguments completely unhinged from metallurgy and driven by hype... :rolleyes:

Any one who wishes to do so can read more and find a link to the post he was banned for here:

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?4,4489,21762

Maybe this forum is better off without him defending unpopular positions and ruffling feathers. Maybe it's less interesting... I don't know. Still don't see any reason to distort the facts. :thumbsup:
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Um, my statement isn't false. Many share the opinion that if a so called expert can't conduct himself like a grown adult, so much so that he is banned, he is in fact untrustworthy. Just the same as with a maker or pimper. It doesn't matter how good your work is or how right you might be about some things, if you act like a child how can you be taken seriously.

Just my opinion of course. If others want to trust a banned member go right ahead. I'll go read what the non-banned experts and makers have to say here on this forum rather than drive traffic elsewhere, to a banished member's website no less.
 
Kootaga13 said:
My thanks to everybody here who enlightened this hillbilly.

If I may ask, does the new Delta 3V step up the 3V game that much?
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Look up what nathanthemachenist has done with d3v. He has his own maker forum here and slso lots of info on the subject in the general makers subforum here.
 
Here's an interesting thing I just noticed about using 3V in certain types of knife categories which my earlier post summarized (modern PM stainless steels are useful and convenient for light-use EDC knives, 3V is optimal for hard-use utility/tactical/survival knives, and either 3V or other carbon steels can be useful in big choppers.

Gossman knives, who makes a lot of great hard use outdoor designs, has knives in both 3V, and in SK7 which is a super tough carbon steel. SK7 was mentioned in some of the externally referenced threads as being significantly tougher than 3V and perhaps a superior choice in large choppers. Looking at Gossman's designs (http://www.shop.gossmanknives.com/), I noticed he has several blades from mid-sized up to his 8" Tusker all in 3v, clearly his most used steel. And he has a smaller blade in CPM20cv, which again makes sense as it's basically American M390, super edge retention and stainless, thus a good fit for a lighter-use blade. But then his larger choppers with 10" blades, like the Tusker 2.0, he's using other carbon steels. One of them is 80CRV2 (never heard of that one), the other is SK7. Not trying to read TOO much into all that, but it's interesting that he's using both 3V and other super tough carbon steels, and he's creating what I assume he believes to be the optimal performance configurations for each category of knife. Would love to get him to weigh in on this thread, PM sent. :)

ETA: I just noticed Bark River is doing something very similar with their Ambush Knives line (http://www.dlttrading.com/ambush-knives). Basically: using modern hard super stainless steels for their EDC and lighter use blades, and then going to 3V for the bigger tactical/utility types of Blades. Examples: the 2 smallest knives in this series, the Sentry and Sidekick models, are in Elmax. Their larger models with blades 3.75" up to 5" are all in 3V. This is all starting to make sense, as you see the patterns that some of the knife makers are using.
 
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Folks, I AM NOT A MOD. But I have been here long enough that I can see us at the verge of losing this extremely informative conversation about STEEL AND NOTHING ELSE.

Please use the PM's.
 
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craytab said:
Look up what nathanthemachenist has done with d3v. He has his own maker forum here and slso lots of info on the subject in the general makers subforum here.
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Thanks Brother Craytab. Really, I wanted others' perspectives also. I can tell you how my new whizbow is the best on the market.
If 3V is a 10 on the personal use scale, is D3V a 12? Just curious?
 
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