Carbon steel vs 3v practical differences for large fixed blades

[danbot]

Interesting conversation here! One thing to keep in mind is that almost every one of the steels being discussed here were first and foremost developed for industrial uses. They were developed to cut sheet metal, bend, form, grip, guide etc. In industry, the increased cost of say 3V will be justified in the savings in the life of the tool for the application, otherwise it will be quickly abandoned.

When these steels are used for knives, we are the ones (knife makers and users) who have to do all of the testing, tweaking and refinement for our purposes. I think this is a major source of confusion surrounding our debates on which steels are "best" for all of the different kinds of knives and tasks that we typically do with our knives.

Its a HUGE undertaking do determine which steel and what heat treatment is superior for any given type of knife. Then factor in all of the myriad of other considerations and the debate seems endless!

I for one am glad that so many great steels are available for knifemakers to use these days and I'm glad they are experimenting with them.
But for me, I like the performance of the simple high carbon steels just fine, and I also appreciate the rust resistance of the stainless steels and the edge retention of the "super steels". As long as I know what I have, I can use it appropriately and maintain it quite easily.

 

[Shooter4321]

Was just thinking about this very topic in the 1095 thread. Choppers, I've used some great ones.
Over the last twenty five plus years I never had a problem dropping coin on a chopper. I have customs and I have some of the best production (Busse, Fehrman)...

It wasn't until I got my hands on a Ontario USGI machete did I realize that I could own a decent chopper and great tool that I could maintain the edge in the middle of nowhere with a bastard file and be good to go for any cutting and chopping chores that needed to be done.....pssss and save myself 3-400 bucks lol.

Does it chop as good as my 3v blades? Nope, but pretty close.
Hold it's edge as long? Nope, but 2 min with a file and I'm good to go for another few hours of chopping.

 

[maximus83]

Good perspective, that's some of the user info I was hoping to hear in the "practical differences" aspect of the thread.

 

[jdm61]

3V will be anywhere from 1 1/3 to 2 times tougher than A2 depending on the heat treatment. It takes a very find, stable edge, even more so with the low temper. 4V/Vanadis 4E is less tough in absolute terms but can be left even harder and has better abrasion resistance. I would consider 3V to be an upgrade from A2 for toughness and an upgrade from L6 for fine edge stability.

 

[hugofeynman]

3V will be anywhere from 1 1/3 to 2 times tougher than A2 depending on the heat treatment. It takes a very find, stable edge, even more so with the low temper. 4V/Vanadis 4E is less tough in absolute terms but can be left even harder and has better abrasion resistance. I would consider 3V to be an upgrade from A2 for toughness and an upgrade from L6 for fine edge stability.

How do you compare cpm3v with your W2 steel, both in edge retention and toughness?

 

[scott.livesey]

we say "Toughness" and "Wear Resistance" but what are we actually talking about? there are several recognized industry tests for toughness. The Charpy test(good video [www.youtube.com]) that is often referenced on steel maker's websites, is basically putting a piece of steel in a holding fixture then whacking it with a weight on a pendulum. the machine has been calibrated and gives a value in foot pounds or Joules. the sample is destroyed. I would guess you would need to test at least 10 identical(in size, Ht, size and shape of notch,....) samples just to see how big a sample pool you would need to get valid data. and all you really know is the amount of force it would take to break a sample.
static torsion has one end of sample fixed while the other end is turned until sample breaks. again, sample destroyed. don't know how this could relate to knife use. bend test applies weight to center of sample in a fixture, you can see how far sample can be bent and return, bend and stay bent, bend and break.
It is pointed out in Tool Steels by Roberts(pg 63-66) "no impact test has yet been devised that enables comparison of the toughness of the different classes of tool steel." Nicks, scratches, burrs and grinding marks on the surface and notches cut for impact testing can give misleading results with hardened tool steels.
Wear resistance is usually tested by abrasion. the abrasives must be identical. heat treat and weight identical for each group of samples. how sample touches abrasive and speed and pressure it touches abrasive must be identical. weigh sample. for an example let's say a 60 grit blaze belt at 2000 fpm with 10 psi of force holding sample to belt for 1 minute. weigh sample. change belt. new sample. repeat at least 9 times. then repeat with 10 samples of steel 2. steel one lost 11 grams +/- 2grams. steel two lost 15 grams +/- 2grams. conclusion could be steel one has better wear resistance OR steel two is easier to grind.

 

[Zagorov]

I doubt 3V will be tougher that 1095, 5160 or 52100 due to the large volume of carbides in 3V. Still for such a high-carbide steel the toughness is impressive.

 

[scott.livesey]

I doubt 3V will be tougher that 1095, 5160 or 52100 due to the large volume of carbides in 3V. Still for such a high-carbide steel the toughness is impressive.

but how are we measuring toughness and abrasion resistance? I guess we could modify the Charpy test so it showed force needed to break sample, but unless I am making armor does the test give me any real world use information? bend tests would be nice if making crowbars. if I am cutting boneless protein, fruit and veg is the abrasion resistance to the carbides in a blaze belt giving any real world info?