Carbon steel vs 3v practical differences for large fixed blades

[hugofeynman]

Here's an interesting thing I just noticed about using 3V in certain types of knife categories which my earlier post summarized (modern PM stainless steels are useful and convenient for light-use EDC knives, 3V is optimal for hard-use utility/tactical/survival knives, and either 3V or other carbon steels can be useful in big choppers.

Gossman knives, who makes a lot of great hard use outdoor designs, has knives in both 3V, and in SK7 which is a super tough carbon steel. SK7 was mentioned in some of the externally referenced threads as being significantly tougher than 3V and perhaps a superior choice in large choppers. Looking at Gossman's designs (http://www.shop.gossmanknives.com/), I noticed he has several blades from mid-sized up to his 8" Tusker all in 3v, clearly his most used steel. And he has a smaller blade in CPM20cv, which again makes sense as it's basically American M390, super edge retention and stainless, thus a good fit for a lighter-use blade. But then his larger choppers with 10" blades, like the Tusker 2.0, he's using other carbon steels. One of them is 80CRV2 (never heard of that one), the other is SK7. Not trying to read TOO much into all that, but it's interesting that he's using both 3V and other super tough carbon steels, and he's creating what I assume he believes to be the optimal performance configurations for each category of knife. Would love to get him to weigh in on this thread, PM sent.

ETA: I just noticed Bark River is doing something very similar with their Ambush Knives line (http://www.dlttrading.com/ambush-knives). Basically: using modern hard super stainless steels for their EDC and lighter use blades, and then going to 3V for the bigger tactical/utility types of Blades. Examples: the 2 smallest knives in this series, the Sentry and Sidekick models, are in Elmax. Their larger models with blades 3.75" up to 5" are all in 3V. This is all starting to make sense, as you see the patterns that some of the knife makers are using.

How could I forget about Gossman? Great guy and makes tremendous knives! I didn't recall him using cpm3v in his biggest models. He (like me) likes S7 steel very much for almost any kind of knife, but for big choppers it's hard to beat!

 

[inkynate]

Um, my statement isn't false. Many share the opinion that if a so called expert can't conduct himself like a grown adult, so much so that he is banned, he is in fact untrustworthy...

It was a straw man (attacking his character rather than forming a rebuttal to the argument) and the premise (that his being banned or his personality has any bearing on the reasons given for not preferring 3V in large choppers) is false.

I generally enjoy your posts Craytab. You're a valueable contributor here and I'm not trying to make enemies, but I think you're off base on this one.

 

[craytab]

It was a straw man (attacking his character rather than forming a rebuttal to the argument) and the premise (that his being banned or his personality has any bearing on the reasons given for not preferring 3V in large choppers) is false.

I generally enjoy your posts Craytab. You're a valueable contributor here and I'm not trying to make enemies, but I think you're off base on this one.

But that was not what I said. I like 3v quite a bit, especially if I was looking for a big chopper. My point is that the information the Op seeks is available here, from trustworthy makers and experts who conduct themselves in a more trustworthy way through civil discourse rather than devolving into child like arguments that result in banishment.

Also, cliff stamp was an insult to this community and I see no reason to drive traffic away from bladeforums to his website when we have members here who can provide the same or better information.

Anyway, on topic. If i was looking for a 3v chopper I'd be trying to find a lightchopper from cpk. I have his field knife and it is fantastic. Other than that I'm not all that sure where else to look as my large knife tasks are handled by my tglb, and like the Op, my Esee junglas.

 

[craytab]

Thanks Brother Craytab. Really, I wanted others' perspectives also. I can tell you how my new whizbow is the best on the market.
If 3V is a 10 on the personal use scale, is D3V a 12? Just curious?

I haven't personally used it (my carothers performance knife (field knife) is his early 3v) but from what I have read it is better and more optimized. Not sure how much but I trust what Nathan says about it. Pepple should really head over to his subforum and do some reading.

 

[Uncle Timbo]

Thanks Craytab. I prolly don't count as a hard use kinda person, so given that, I may not see a difference.
But, I guess one never knows when the day may come and they may have to rely on that knife and wish it was D3V or 3V providing they have it on them at that time.

 

[Gossman Knives]

maximus83 asked if I would respond to his thread about steel choices. Since 3V is the main question, I like 3V for all size knives. In my testing and using, it works very well in large blades aka choppers. I think edge geometry has been something that is important with 3V. I've found the low angled V bevels are more prone to chipping especially when 3V is 61 rc and higher. 3V IMO, performs best at it's aim hardness at 58/60 rc. with zero convex edges and convex micro bevels. I've spent some time experimenting with different HT with the addition of cryo. My hardness is at 59/60 and has worked out well with extreme testing with edges run at zero convex at 0.10 to 0.15 thickness at the edge. I had no chipping only minor denting of the edge.
If I were to choose a CPM carbon tool steel for a large blade, it would be CPM 4V. IMO, much better then 3V in toughness, edge retention and stability. I run my 4V at 62/63 rc. If you want the ultimate in strength and toughness, S7 steel is hard to beat. It is an unbelievably strong steel. I use O1, A2, 80CRV2 and have used in the past, 8670M & 5160. All these steels work in large blades that will see heavy work. I've even made large blades using CPM S35VN. That's a tough stainless steel.
It comes down to how much you want to spend on a knife. Go with premium materials, you'll pay more. If I had to choose one steel for large heavy use blades, it would be S7.
Scott

 

[craytab]

Thanks Craytab. I prolly don't count as a hard use kinda person, so given that, I may not see a difference.
But, I guess one never knows when the day may come and they may have to rely on that knife and wish it was D3V or 3V providing they have it on them at that time.

Even for not so hard use the benefits of 3v over other carbon steels can be realized. My CPK FK in 3v holds an edge better and is far more rust resistant than other knives I have or have had in carbon (Esee 1095 & BRKT A2). Even when using around camp and for light fire prep. Now that said, I have no doubt if I needed to press it into much harder use or in a one knife scenario It would perform not only for hard use but also to hold that edge longer since no other knives would be available. And of course these same properties apply to a larger chopper and even smaller EDC knives (BRKT has a lot of small knives in 3v, I had Bravo necker 2 that was great).

Is it worth the cost in a larger chopper or otherwise? Only the individual can decided that. For me, I don't do a lot of chopping and the Junglas plus TGLB have handled all the tasks I needed them for. If I had an endless budget I would love a CPK LC but for my uses and budget the Junglas performs just fine. Now the CPK FK? That one is my go to belt knife that has kicked a lot of competition out of my collection. It isn't going anywhere.

 

[scott.livesey]

i guess craytab didn't bother to read Cliff's statement. "for some choices it is a decent blade steel. The common heavy duty utility/tactical style knives for example." "3V impacts just as much as a simple steel in those cases. It is no better than them in resisting such deformation. However when you go to sharpen it that vanadium carbide shows up and it demands higher end stones, more coarse stones, power sharpening, more time - or some combination of all of that. The question then becomes - why are you paying more money for a steel which has no improved performance and is harder to maintain? "
others have posted about 3V being corrosion resistant, i guess those folks don't do industrial work. at the office, tooling made from 3V, A2, D2, S5, S7, and H13 all corroded as quick as plain jane cold rolled. you need chrome and moly over 16% before you would see corrosion resistance. as far as numbers, here are Crucible's https://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/cpm3vt.html, but also look at https://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/ketos.html and see at the same hardness, Rc62, 3V it is not that much better than O1
from a maker's point of view, 3V will cost 5 to 6 times as much as 80CrV2 or 8670. HT including temper will be 6 to 8 hours for 3V while 80CrV2 or 8670 should be done in 2 hours. as has been commented on many times here, hardened high vanadium steels love to eat belts, discs, and stones. more time and higher material costs. I will admit though, an ad saying "Made of Crucible CPM-3V" will probably get twice the looks than the exact same knife made of 8670.

 

[samuraistuart]

Also to consider when talking about 3V corrosion resistance....there will be a difference (maybe a very slight one) in using the low temperature tempers vs the high temp tempers (Secondary hardening range). The low temp tempers will allow for more free Cr, thus a slightly elevated corrosion resistance. Also, the low temp tempers are shown to give better "apex stability" over the secondary hardening tempers. The former will offer a slightly better apex stability on impact/lateral load, but the latter will offer slightly better "wear resistance", at the expense of a little toughness and corrosion resistance. If heat treating 3V intrigues you, I invite you to head over to the Carother's Performance Knives subforum and read the post "Ask Nathan a question" (or some title similar).

 

[craytab]

i guess craytab didn't bother to read Cliff's statement.

Yup, and nor do I have a desire to do so

My 3v has performed better than the steels the OP was asking about (1095 in particular). It has also been far more rust resistant. These are just my experiences though I know many others on here have experienced similar.

 

[maximus83]

Thanks for the response! So a few follow-up questions as I'm looking to soon try a hard-use medium sized knife or a chopper in a more premium steel than 1095, which is all that I have currently.

• Will you offer knives on your retail site on CPM 4V anytime near future? Do you see CPM 4V as potentially the successor to 3V, basically as 3V++?
• How is S7 for corrosion resistance, what other carbon steel would you compare it to for that property?

maximus83 asked if I would respond to his thread about steel choices. Since 3V is the main question, I like 3V for all size knives. In my testing and using, it works very well in large blades aka choppers. I think edge geometry has been something that is important with 3V. I've found the low angled V bevels are more prone to chipping especially when 3V is 61 rc and higher. 3V IMO, performs best at it's aim hardness at 58/60 rc. with zero convex edges and convex micro bevels. I've spent some time experimenting with different HT with the addition of cryo. My hardness is at 59/60 and has worked out well with extreme testing with edges run at zero convex at 0.10 to 0.15 thickness at the edge. I had no chipping only minor denting of the edge.
If I were to choose a CPM carbon tool steel for a large blade, it would be CPM 4V. IMO, much better then 3V in toughness, edge retention and stability. I run my 4V at 62/63 rc. If you want the ultimate in strength and toughness, S7 steel is hard to beat. It is an unbelievably strong steel. I use O1, A2, 80CRV2 and have used in the past, 8670M & 5160. All these steels work in large blades that will see heavy work. I've even made large blades using CPM S35VN. That's a tough stainless steel.
It comes down to how much you want to spend on a knife. Go with premium materials, you'll pay more. If I had to choose one steel for large heavy use blades, it would be S7.
Scott

 

[Charlie Mike]

S7 is equivalent to 1095 in corrosion resistance.

 

[ATJ999]

Others experiences may vary. But I have had amazing result with 3V in big/huge blades. I have 3V knives from 3 inches all the way up to a 22inch blade slim brush sword. I have had amazing performance with those big blades. I wanted 3V mostly for its all around great abilities, including the important corrosion resistance since I live in a very wet area. The corrosion resistance above simple carbon steels is night and day, especially when HT's with a low temp HT protocol. And as far as toughness and edge stability, I have accidentally come down, full power swing with those big blades, onto hardened steel right on the edge and was able to sharpen the ding out easily within 15 minutes(hand sharpening). I have also come down on steel with my Carothers light chopper, that is a little harder to sharpen, but not by much. The Carothers LC and my slimline machetes are my favorite go to's for my daily hard use chopping chores. Very surprised how tough the CPK LC is for having that thin of edge, really thin grind.

S7 and Infi do have amazing toughness, but for all around performance, call me a 3V fanboy! For medium - Huge blades, it has the best all around performance of any steel I have used so far. But like I said, corrosion resistance is important to me, which really adds to my liking of 3V.

Fixed Blades I use on a daily basis(rotation, not all everyday)- 22 inch blade 3V brush sword, 2- 20 inch 3V slimline machetes(one personally made and one from Shannon steel labs, great guy), Busse Infi CG AK47, 18 inch 3V slimline brush sword, 17 inch nitrogen stainless machete, 16 inch 3V machete, 3 1095 machetes, S7 machete, A2 chopper, Carothers light chopper and field knife, Busse Infi Axe Hammer knife, Survive!20CV 5.1( with a few more I'm waiting for, of course), 4 personally made 3V knives with low temp HT protocol of different sizes along with a few Aeb L fixed blades, Schrade 7 inch SCHF37 1095 fixed blades(awesome for tough beaters!), a couple Mora's, and a Z-Finit 6.5 inch from Shannon steel labs.
Also have a Z-Wear fixed blade, CPM Cru-Wear, and PD#1(those 3 are amazing steels). I think that is it.

Of all of those the 3V do have the best all around performance(edge holding, edge stability, corrosion resistance, toughness, etc.). BUT, Heat treatment and blade geometry play just as much if not more important roles!
Sorry for the essay, just wanted to share my experiences. Hope some of it might help. Everyone has different experiences. I forgot to mention 3V's price. It is spendy! Not as much as Infi, but quite high. If you look around you can find makers that will make a knife for a good price. There are lots of great knife makers!

 

[hugofeynman]

Cpm 3v is probably the toughest PM steel (Not the toughest steel!!!) in the 58-62hrc range. Only know a pm steel that, on theory, can be even tougher: ASP 2002, from Erasteel, a PM HSS designed to substitute H13 in some tasks. Cpm 4v (or Vanadis 4 extra, the original) may be tougher than cpm3v at 63+hrc, making it a better performer in cutting competitions, but it will never substitute cpm3v regarding toughness for a mid size military/survival knife. But you can increase edge thickness and everything will be great for a big chopper! Even cpm Rex 121 with a real obtuse edge will perform as a chopper, but not the ideal choice.

 

[ATJ999]

Cpm 3v is probably the toughest PM steel (Not the toughest steel!!!) in the 58-62hrc range. Only know a pm steel that, on theory, can be even tougher: ASP 2002, from Erasteel, a PM HSS designed to substitute H13 in some tasks.

A PM steel I am very interested in is CTS-CD#1
http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?i=103&e=292&c=TechArt

I just wish more people would give it a try. But, it might be really speedy. Should be extremely tough though!

 

[Gossman Knives]

Thanks for the response! So a few follow-up questions as I'm looking to soon try a hard-use medium sized knife or a chopper in a more premium steel than 1095, which is all that I have currently.

• Will you offer knives on your retail site on CPM 4V anytime near future? Do you see CPM 4V as potentially the successor to 3V, basically as 3V++?
• How is S7 for corrosion resistance, what other carbon steel would you compare it to for that property?

Yes, I have plans on making more BBT's out of 4V. Problem right now is 4V is still new. Not many maker/companies offering it. It's also not distributed to knife supply vendors in various sizes like 3V is and costs more then 3V. Will it beat out 3V? I highly doubt it. 3V has found a secure place in the market with a huge following as seen in this thread.
S7 corrosion resistance falls above O1 and below A2. It has 3.25% chromium. It will stain and rust if not cared for. A lot of myths about S7 being good as a knife steel. I don't buy into any of them.
Also wanted to mention I've used CPM M4 for big blades at 64 rc. with great results.
Scott

 

[hugofeynman]

A PM steel I am very interested in is CTS-CD#1
http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?i=103&e=292&c=TechArt

I just wish more people would give it a try. But, it might be really speedy. Should be extremely tough though!

Seems tough stuff, given the low carbon and high nickel content. Probably just a little bit tougher than cpm3v.

 

[Gaston444]

Um, my statement isn't false. Many share the opinion that if a so called expert can't conduct himself like a grown adult, so much so that he is banned, he is in fact untrustworthy. Just the same as with a maker or pimper. It doesn't matter how good your work is or how right you might be about some things, if you act like a child how can you be taken seriously.

Just my opinion of course. If others want to trust a banned member go right ahead. I'll go read what the non-banned experts and makers have to say here on this forum rather than drive traffic elsewhere, to a banished member's website no less.

That argument is nothing short of pathetic. Especially in light of what many "experts" on this site are saying, and their methodologies and conclusions...

I doubt you could find a single instance of Cliff "behaving like a child", and you had to resort to that vague smearing for lack of anything substantial. He was causing a lot of trouble with counter-intuitive opinions and a certain air of arrogant scientific superiority, but the main thing is he often proved people as either wrong or less knowledgeable, and that's something they usually never forgive. If anything, my problem with him is he talks too much like a nuclear physicist about something that is less than a hard science. Childish is about as remote an adjective from that guy as can be, and in fact he could use a bit more whimsy.

He may have raised the standard of "Scientific proof" and metallurgic theory a bit too high above anecdotal observations, a mistake scientific-minded people often make (the bumble bee can't fly kind of thing), but the very fact some of his observations are counter-intuitive, and have a correct understanding of randomness, places them far above the painfully "expectable" observations all over this site... Like newer flavour-of-the-month steels performing better than older steels for instance: Totally blown away by the expectation bias control right there...

You just know the science is dead serious when nature does exactly what you expect... Nature is well-known for doing that.

Gaston

 

[craytab]

That argument is nothing short of pathetic. Especially in light of what many "experts" on this site are saying, and their methodologies and conclusions...

I doubt you could find a single instance of Cliff "behaving like a child", and you had to resort to that vague smearing for lack of anything substantial. He was causing a lot of trouble with counter-intuitive opinions and a certain air of arrogant scientific superiority, but the main thing is he often proved people as either wrong or less knowledgeable, and that's something they usually never forgive. If anything, my problem with him is he talks too much like a nuclear physicist about something that is less than a hard science. Childish is about as remote an adjective from that guy as can be, and in fact he could use a bit more whimsy.

He may have raised the standard of "Scientific proof" and metallurgic theory a bit too high above anecdotal observations, a mistake scientific-minded people often make (the bumble bee can't fly kind of thing), but the very fact some of his observations are counter-intuitive, and have a correct understanding of randomness, places them far above the painfully "expectable" observations all over this site... Like newer flavour-of-the-month steels performing better than older steels for instance: Totally blown away by the expectation bias control right there...

You just know the science is dead serious when nature does exactly what you expect... Nature is well-known for doing that.

Gaston

Are you done? What exactly is your experience with 3v and cpm steels in general?

Edit to add: I would suggest you review your history. After years of being a pain in the butt cliff was banned for insulting the entire forum. The owner had enough at that point. And with that I'm done wasting time talking about this rude banned individual.

 

[Uncle Timbo]

Guys, guys, guys, I have always loved the Ratweiler as a chopper. So when Jerry offered it in Infi, I jumped on it.
Now, when I'm out there in the wild blue yonder chopping wood for the fire, I'm not going to have another chopper made out of 3V or 4V to compare her to. Just me and my Infi Rat chopping some wood and having fun.