Carbon vs Stainless Steel

eKretz said:
Nitriding is a hardening method. It only hardens a very thin skin on the surface though, so...useful for wear resistance, not for structural strength.

Also, the thread didn't devolve at all. The subject was carbon steel vs. stainless steel. The subject has continued to be discussed.
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So without a sea change, this steel will mot be available to knifemwkers, perio.
 
Yonose said:
So without a sea change, this steel will mot be available to knifemwkers, perio.
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Nah, nitriding is a surface treatment. Gold-colored drill bits are nitrided. Kershaw offers a variety of different colored titanium nitride finishes on many of their knives and tools.
 
I prefer a soft steel knife that bends instead of breaking, And an edge that rolls rather than chipping, Finding a steel that keeps it`s edge the longest while still keeping to my first and second requirement is the difficulty.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Nah, nitriding is a surface treatment. Gold-colored drill bits are nitrided. Kershaw offers a variety of different colored titanium nitride finishes on many of their knives and tools.
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Nope, this isn't accurate. Titanium nitride is a coating that is deposited as a vapor. Nitriding is a heat treat method, as I said earlier. They are not even close to the same except that both create a hard thin layer at the surface. The mechanism whereby this occurs is completely different between the two.

http://www.metlabheattreat.com/nitriding.html
 
eKretz said:
Nope, this isn't accurate. Titanium nitride is a coating that is deposited as a vapor. Nitriding is a heat treat method, as I said earlier. They are not even close to the same except that both create a hard thin layer at the surface. The mechanism whereby this occurs is completely different between the two.

http://www.metlabheattreat.com/nitriding.html
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Gotcha'.
 
FortyTwoBlades, My condolences. :( Here we go again, a good, fun thread going sideways because (insert analogy akin to a dog licking himself). :rolleyes:
 
eKretz said:
Nope, this isn't accurate. Titanium nitride is a coating that is deposited as a vapor. Nitriding is a heat treat method, as I said earlier. They are not even close to the same except that both create a hard thin layer at the surface. The mechanism whereby this occurs is completely different between the two.

http://www.metlabheattreat.com/nitriding.html
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They are close to the same as far as intended purpose goes.
 
Looks like nitriding as a "hardening process" as distinct from a coating process mostly differs on whether or not the base metal itself is receiving the treatment or if it's having a coating of material deposited on the surface that then receives said treatment. Most steels are able to be nitrided but "nitriding steels" are ones designed to maximize benefit from the process.
 
hmmm... a carbon steel Smatchet, or a stainless steel light-saber?? decisions, decisions...

on the secondary subjective hair bristling topic, when I look at a 440C or D2 blade grind with good light, I can see wavy, Damascus-like patterns on the steel that I don't see in other ss or carbon blades. What did I win? :)
 
Mecha said:
Ya’ll sayin’ you can’t discern the difference between a carbon steel knife blade and a stainless steel knife blade by touch and sight? For example, two of the same model of Opinel, with unmarked blades, one carbonne and one INOX?
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Ha, ha ! That's not the steel you're seing but the finish : stainless Opinels (12C27) are mirror polished, the carbon Opis are somewhat raw ground (OK, OK, satin finished...). The carbon steel is for the budget version (the true to its roots Opinel, you know, gritty / gnarly agricultural and industrial style) and the stainless is the nicer / fancier option.
 
cbrstar said:
It's not a placebo effect, heck take a old carbon knife and lick it then lick a stainless steel knife they even taste different so why wouldn't they feel different?
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Because they don't, that's why. Carbon steel has a taste, even a smell, but to recognize carbon steel by touch is snake oil quackery or delusion at best. The only thing you can actually feel is the level of surface finish and yes, bear with me... it is an advantage to high polish carbon steel : it is easier to clean and more rust resistant. Not needed on true stainless blades. This could explain what you may "feel".
 
cbrstar said:
IMG_0393.jpg
(pic borrowed from cult of Mac)

Hmm I dunno they look exactly the same... (Sorry that was me being sarcastic)
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The Inox blade has marks of rust at the tang... Not 12C27 (but certainly the agricultural / industrial finish).
 
katanas said:
FortyTwoBlades, My condolences. :( Here we go again, a good, fun thread going sideways because (insert analogy akin to a dog licking himself). :rolleyes:
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WTF are you talking about? Someone made an inaccurate statement and it was corrected. If you would prefer to remain ignorant, please do so. But please refrain from opening your mouth in an effort to persuade others to do so.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Looks like nitriding as a "hardening process" as distinct from a coating process mostly differs on whether or not the base metal itself is receiving the treatment or if it's having a coating of material deposited on the surface that then receives said treatment. Most steels are able to be nitrided but "nitriding steels" are ones designed to maximize benefit from the process.
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Yup kind of; nitriding is basically exposing the base metal to an element (in this case nitrogen) at an elevated temperature. The nitrogen is diffused into the metal. A coating like TiN is just applied over the top. This is done by plasma sputtering titanium nitride in a vacuum atmosphere. It doesn't get nitrided afterward. If you tried, nothing would happen.

Edit to add: further more specific info re: TiN coating.
 
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DocJD said:
This "initial condition" is very artificial and is not what is experienced in actually using the knives as tools over time . Not without a lot of maintenance that masks the true nature of the metal .
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"Lot of maintenance" is flat out wrong. Keeping your blade clean (sweeping it with your handky or on your jeans, whatever...), washing it with hot water and soap every two or three months, adding a drop of oil on the pivot (and/or a rub on the blade)... is just what everybody has done since centuries. And those carbon blades are still fully functional (folders from the 19th century, swords from the 15th, and on..). Stainless steels are actually nice but they are not the greatest event since the last giant meteorite.
 
herisson said:
Because they don't, that's why. Carbon steel has a taste, even a smell, but to recognize carbon steel by touch is snake oil quackery or delusion at best. The only thing you can actually feel is the level of surface finish and yes, bear with me... it is an advantage to high polish carbon steel : it is easier to clean and more rust resistant. Not needed on true stainless blades. This could explain what you may "feel".
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So you’re saying that carbon steel knives are usually finished to a more smooth polish, that can be felt? So saying he prefers carbon steel knives because they seem to feel more slick and silky is true?
 
No... Carbon steel "may" (should) be polished to a higher degree because it's beneficial for several reasons. Stainless can be "satin brushed" and look... well, half finished, but still do very well in the corrosion resistance part. That would be an explanation for the "feeling the steel" stuff. Now, if you, as a bladesmith, say you can feel a quality of steel... well, then, I will give it some thought. But somehow "seeing" a steel or just "identifying" it by touch seems rather extraterrestrial to me. You could be an extraterrestrial, though. No harm, I'm an international guy, basically. This involves other planets and this kind of stuff... I have a 440C bladed little knife which displays the most lovely grey-blue mirror polished hue I have ever seen. It's fascinating. It's 440C and I love it. Never understood the dislike for this steel. It also does the job to the best...
 
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herisson said:
No... Carbon steel "may" (should) be polished to a higher degree because it's beneficial for several reasons. Stainless can be "satin brushed" and look... well, half finished, but still do very well in the corrosion resistance part. That would be an explanation for the "feeling the steel" stuff. Now, if you, as a bladesmith, say you can feel a quality of steel... well, then, I will give it some thought. But somehow "seeing" a steel or just "identifying" it by touch seems rather extraterrestrial to me. You could be an extraterrestrial, though. No harm, I'm an international guy, basically. This involves other planets and this kind of stuff... I have a 440C bladed little knife which displays the most lovely grey-blue mirror polished hue I have ever seen. It's fascinating. It's 440C and I love it. Never understood the dislike for this steel. It also does the job to the best...
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I certainly can not identify a type of steel by touch. But, if basic carbon steel is normally finished more smoothly than stainless, then that is a great simple explanation for why some of the more tactily-inclined knife nuts would start to appreciate the smoothness and begin to generally prefer the feel of carbon knives. I suspect the difference in finish may also be because stainless is hard on abrasives which means cost and time that may not be necessary on normal ss knives.

Tapping and Salad Fingering different metals does produce a unique sound or resonance.

When it comes to seeing stainless steel, the addition of a huge amount of chromium to steel, upwards of nearly 1/5 of the entire composition of the alloy in some stainless steels, is observable when studied closely in good light and in person. In my opinion. It’s visible in the light reflected off of the metal at an angle and in motion, way more so than just flatly and statically looking at the color of the metal itself. I humbly suggest that others spend some time observing very closely once you’re done licking your knives. XD
 
herisson said:
No... Carbon steel "may" (should) be polished to a higher degree because it's beneficial for several reasons. Stainless can be "satin brushed" and look... well, half finished, but still do very well in the corrosion resistance part. That would be an explanation for the "feeling the steel" stuff. Now, if you, as a bladesmith, say you can feel a quality of steel... well, then, I will give it some thought. But somehow "seeing" a steel or just "identifying" it by touch seems rather extraterrestrial to me. You could be an extraterrestrial, though. No harm, I'm an international guy, basically. This involves other planets and this kind of stuff... I have a 440C bladed little knife which displays the most lovely grey-blue mirror polished hue I have ever seen. It's fascinating. It's 440C and I love it. Never understood the dislike for this steel. It also does the job to the best...
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I can't tell a steel type by feel, but I agree that a high polish on carbon steel seems to really help with corrosion resistance. 440c is an excellent steel and will take a nice polish.:thumbsup:
Mecha said:
I certainly can not identify a type of steel by touch. But, if basic carbon steel is normally finished more smoothly than stainless, then that is a great simple explanation for why some of the more tactily-inclined knife nuts would start to appreciate the smoothness and begin to generally prefer the feel of carbon knives. I suspect the difference in finish may also be because stainless is hard on abrasives which means cost and time that may not be necessary on normal ss knives.

Tapping and Salad Fingering different metals does produce a unique sound or resonance.

When it comes to seeing stainless steel, the addition of a huge amount of chromium to steel, upwards of nearly 1/5 of the entire composition of the alloy in some stainless steels, is observable when studied closely in good light and in person. In my opinion. It’s visible in the light reflected off of the metal at an angle and in motion, way more so than just flatly and statically looking at the color of the metal itself. I humbly suggest that others spend some time observing very closely once you’re done licking your knives. XD
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This is just awesome!:)
I will have to put this to the test myself tomorrow.
 
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