"Carl's Lounge" (Off-Topic Discussion, Traditional Knife "Tales & Vignettes")

[Jack Black]

Jack, how do the police get away with arresting someone for something that is not against the law, as in the case of the elderly doctor? Don't the police or courts have punitive actions against over zealous police officers? As I understand UK law, anything under 3 inches and with no lock on the blade is okay. So when a over zelious cop pulls in a person with a legal knife, doesn't his superiors chew him a new butt, or the judge toss the case out of court with a stern warning to the cop? And what venue do the people have to file a complaint against the police?

It sounds like there's two sets of laws over there, the one on the books, and the one that the police are making up as they go along. Wow.

Carl.

Hi Carl,

Your understanding of UK law is entirely correct. In this case, the elderley doctor was arrested because some metal detectors and a 'customs' type operation were set up at Leeds train station. He was found to be in posession of a Vic Classic, quite clearly something he was entitled to possess, but was then arrested and spent several hours in a police cell, before being released without charge (I don't know if his knife was returned to him or not). The case became quite notorious locally because the arrest was patently ridiculous, the knife was very small, and the person arrested was elderly and respectable. However, I believe there are probably numerous other instances which have not been highlighted in the press, where for example the knife may have been somewhat larger (but still legal carry) or the person arrested perhaps not so eminently respectable. In some cases it seems the British police broker a deal wherby they "destroy" the knife in question in return for ending the matter there and then, so in return for not spending hours in a police station, many people agree to this even though they haven't broken the law. Sometimes cases like this are highlighted on UK knife forums, and I know personally of someone who had his bag searched, and after the police found a small non-locking folder in his first-aid kit, he was pressured into surrendering it. It's a bad state of affairs, and is getting worse I think. I can understand why the police wouldn't want gangs of thugs running around waving knives about, but they seem to be taking a blanket approach to this, in which they are often acting unlawfully. I know for a fact that local shops have been pressured into not selling pocket-knives, usually SAKs, yet in every British city centre, you'll generally find several shops selling cheap mall-ninja knives, which they sell to teenagers. Whereas the former premises have clearly caved in to police pressure, the latter don't care what their wares are used for, so just laugh off any police attention they do get.

Jack

 

[jackknife]

Jack, I understand what you're saying, but I am having a hard time processing it in my head. I always had this view of England as a place where rules are strict, but fair, and manners went hand in hand with the police. But I don't see how they get away with what is basically illegal acts like false arrest, intimidation and confiscation of legal property, and out and out harassment of the citizens who wish to carry a small penknife. It seems that there would be a slew of court suits over the false arrest issue alone. If UK law says a Vic classic or even a bantam is legal, I can't see how the police get away with the pressuring of people to give them up to make a non existent problem go away. To hold someone in a jail cell without charging, and then tell them they can go if they give up their tiny knife is just wrong on so many levels. Do you have a representative in Parliament that can look into complaints against high handed police personal? It's like the cops don't care about the law, but pursue their own agenda as they see fit.

Maybe it's time the citizens of the UK had a little revolution of their own. Wow, I had no idea it had got to that point over there. Is there any wide spread discontent, enough to get some demonstrations in front of Parliament gong?

Carl.

 

[MT Damascus]

Wow, Jack, just wow, definitely not for me.

6 lb local Montana beef brisket, Texas style, indirect heat(not using lump charcoal for this one), hickory, simple rub with cumin and chilli pepper, etc. Every hour I will add 20 coals and 1 cup hickory, low heat 250 degrees for 6 hours. I have lots of IPA to keep me...

Kris

 

[Jack Black]

Hi Carl,

Sadly, we pocket-knife users are now just a tiny minority here, and a highly demonised one at that. I very much doubt anyone outside our tiny group gives a hoot about the issue, they've already been brainwashed into seeing a pocket-knife as nothing more than a weapon, and anyone carrying one as a criminal. When I was talking to the lady in the shop yesterday, she said, "Well I suppose if you're not doing anything wrong, you won't get stopped by the police anyway." That's generally true, unless you happen to go through a train station when they're "screening for knives and drugs", or you go into a court building for example, or are maybe in the vicinity of a demonstration. In either case, you are under no lawful obligation to submit to a search unless there is "reasonable suspicion" that you've committed a crime, (the police may have been granted limited powers to conduct routine searches in the last instance), but in practice, refusing that search may lead to your arrest because your refusal to be searched could be deemed as "acting suspiciously".

Even the restrictions on every day carry of locking folders are not actual law, as made by Parliament, but the result of an overzealous prosecutor and a stupid judge, the first arguing that there was essentially no difference between a locking folder and a fixed blade, and the latter accepting that. So we have case law superceding an argument that was specifically rejected by Parliament when the law on folders was drafted, and a similiar position has now been copied by other European countries, even though it's only case law here and subject to challenge. It has not been challenged because many of the cases are dealt with "informally", ie the knife is confiscated and the person may additionally receive a 'caution'. Of the cases that go to court, I dare say the vast majority are young thugs carrying a knife as a weapon, and I imagine they do not want to dispute the case on something most lawyers today would probably regard as a "technical point", the raising of which would anger the judge and result in a higher sentence. Of any other cases, which were not dealt with "informally", I suspect that most (clearly all, so far) will take a plea-bargain of a non-custodial sentence rather than risk an increasingly lengthy jail term and the destruction of their reputation by arguing a point of law.

Jack

 

[Jack Black]

Great stuff Kris, you live in the right part of the world, and may it remain ever thus

Jack

 

[Peregrin]

Wow, Jack, just wow, definitely not for me.

6 lb local Montana beef brisket, Texas style, indirect heat(not using lump charcoal for this one), hickory, simple rub with cumin and chilli pepper, etc. Every hour I will add 20 coals and 1 cup hickory, low heat 250 degrees for 6 hours. I have lots of IPA to keep me...


Kris

Looks good Kris. I make a mean 3 beer BBQ chicken myself. The beer is consumed, not used for cooking, in case anyone is wondering.
Put the chicken on the grill, drink 3 beers, voila!

 

[Peregrin]

Hi Carl,

Sadly, we pocket-knife users are now just a tiny minority here, and a highly demonised one at that. I very much doubt anyone outside our tiny group gives a hoot about the issue, they've already been brainwashed into seeing a pocket-knife as nothing more than a weapon, and anyone carrying one as a criminal. When I was talking to the lady in the shop yesterday, she said, "Well I suppose if you're not doing anything wrong, you won't get stopped by the police anyway." That's generally true, unless you happen to go through a train station when they're "screening for knives and drugs", or you go into a court building for example, or are maybe in the vicinity of a demonstration. In either case, you are under no lawful obligation to submit to a search unless there is "reasonable suspicion" that you've committed a crime, (the police may have been granted limited powers to conduct routine searches in the last instance), but in practice, refusing that search may lead to your arrest because your refusal to be searched could be deemed as "acting suspiciously".

Even the restrictions on every day carry of locking folders are not actual law, as made by Parliament, but the result of an overzealous prosecutor and a stupid judge, the first arguing that there was essentially no difference between a locking folder and a fixed blade, and the latter accepting that. So we have case law superceding an argument that was specifically rejected by Parliament when the law on folders was drafted, and a similiar position has now been copied by other European countries, even though it's only case law here and subject to challenge. It has not been challenged because many of the cases are dealt with "informally", ie the knife is confiscated and the person may additionally receive a 'caution'. Of the cases that go to court, I dare say the vast majority are young thugs carrying a knife as a weapon, and I imagine they do not want to dispute the case on something most lawyers today would probably regard as a "technical point", the raising of which would anger the judge and result in a higher sentence. Of any other cases, which were not dealt with "informally", I suspect that most (clearly all, so far) will take a plea-bargain of a non-custodial sentence rather than risk an increasingly lengthy jail term and the destruction of their reputation by arguing a point of law.

Jack

I loved the trip we took to the UK in 2006. I did carry a peanut with me and didn't have a problem, but then again I didn't get stopped or detained for anything.

We're planning a trip to Italy in September/October. The one thing that puts a bit of a damper on the whole thing for me, is the restrictive knife laws. I'll just go knifeless I guess.

 

[MT Damascus]

Jack, thank you, living here is as important as anything to my wife and myself.

Gary, excellent, we follow a similar recipe

 

[Will Power]

Media plays a key role in firing up this witch-hunt against knives, by exaggerating the level and type of 'knife crime' No question. Even the word 'carrying' is synonymous in some minds with intent to attack. The whole situation can be worsened by police officers ignorant of the law, over zealous in their approach and desiring to be seen to be proactive/zero tolerance types. But it can be cynical too, I mean you get good 'results' by picking on the elderly or inoffensive, they won't cause trouble or answer back. I'm sure the elderly doctor that Jack cited was at first bewildered by the whole thing and then probably throughly frightened by being locked up for a while. It can't be too relaxing to be surrounded by hulking coppers barking at you about serious crimes and possible court case for offensive weapons. Much easier to give in and let them, conveniently, destroy the evidence.... Point is though, English law DOES allow people to carry smaller pocket-knives provided you can give a valid reason for having it (i.e. snack preparation etc) Context, demeanour should (and is in court) be important, but if somebody has given up their knife after being wrongly detained simply to get out of an unpleasant and intimidating situation in a police-station then it will continue to be seen as guilt or a crime that doesn't actually exist. I don't blame elderly or respectable people for being frightened by these tactics, but the tactics are wrong and it's important that people like Jack resist this misinformation generated, as I say by sensationalist media and its followers.

 

[Jack Black]

I make a mean 3 beer BBQ chicken myself. The beer is consumed, not used for cooking, in case anyone is wondering.
Put the chicken on the grill, drink 3 beers, voila!

Sounds great Gary :thumbup:

I loved the trip we took to the UK in 2006. I did carry a peanut with me and didn't have a problem, but then again I didn't get stopped or detained for anything.

We're planning a trip to Italy in September/October. The one thing that puts a bit of a damper on the whole thing for me, is the restrictive knife laws. I'll just go knifeless I guess.

Yes, it's fine here as long as you don't actually get stopped! They've been discussing using 'remote scanning' technology for at least the past decade though, and have even trialed it a few places!

Media plays a key role in firing up this witch-hunt against knives, by exaggerating the level and type of 'knife crime' No question. Even the word 'carrying' is synonymous in some minds with intent to attack. The whole situation can be worsened by police officers ignorant of the law, over zealous in their approach and desiring to be seen to be proactive/zero tolerance types. But it can be cynical too, I mean you get good 'results' by picking on the elderly or inoffensive, they won't cause trouble or answer back. I'm sure the elderly doctor that Jack cited was at first bewildered by the whole thing and then probably throughly frightened by being locked up for a while. It can't be too relaxing to be surrounded by hulking coppers barking at you about serious crimes and possible court case for offensive weapons. Much easier to give in and let them, conveniently, destroy the evidence.... Point is though, English law DOES allow people to carry smaller pocket-knives provided you can give a valid reason for having it (i.e. snack preparation etc) Context, demeanour should (and is in court) be important, but if somebody has given up their knife after being wrongly detained simply to get out of an unpleasant and intimidating situation in a police-station then it will continue to be seen as guilt or a crime that doesn't actually exist. I don't blame elderly or respectable people for being frightened by these tactics, but the tactics are wrong and it's important that people like Jack resist this misinformation generated, as I say by sensationalist media and its followers.

:thumbup:

 

[Jack Black]

I make a mean 3 beer BBQ chicken myself. The beer is consumed, not used for cooking, in case anyone is wondering.
Put the chicken on the grill, drink 3 beers, voila!

Sounds great Gary :thumbup:

I loved the trip we took to the UK in 2006. I did carry a peanut with me and didn't have a problem, but then again I didn't get stopped or detained for anything.

We're planning a trip to Italy in September/October. The one thing that puts a bit of a damper on the whole thing for me, is the restrictive knife laws. I'll just go knifeless I guess.

Yes, it's fine here as long as you don't actually get stopped! They've been discussing using 'remote scanning' technology for at least the past decade though, and have even trialed it a few places!

I remember being out one evening in central Rome in 1978. Me and my mate must have been passing an embassy or government building or something as there were two armed caribineri outside. They spotted my sheath knife and asked about it. I told them we were backpacking. No problem. I guess times have changed everywhere. I'm sure you'll have a wonderful time though Gary, it's a beautiful country

Media plays a key role in firing up this witch-hunt against knives, by exaggerating the level and type of 'knife crime' No question. Even the word 'carrying' is synonymous in some minds with intent to attack. The whole situation can be worsened by police officers ignorant of the law, over zealous in their approach and desiring to be seen to be proactive/zero tolerance types. But it can be cynical too, I mean you get good 'results' by picking on the elderly or inoffensive, they won't cause trouble or answer back. I'm sure the elderly doctor that Jack cited was at first bewildered by the whole thing and then probably throughly frightened by being locked up for a while. It can't be too relaxing to be surrounded by hulking coppers barking at you about serious crimes and possible court case for offensive weapons. Much easier to give in and let them, conveniently, destroy the evidence.... Point is though, English law DOES allow people to carry smaller pocket-knives provided you can give a valid reason for having it (i.e. snack preparation etc) Context, demeanour should (and is in court) be important, but if somebody has given up their knife after being wrongly detained simply to get out of an unpleasant and intimidating situation in a police-station then it will continue to be seen as guilt or a crime that doesn't actually exist. I don't blame elderly or respectable people for being frightened by these tactics, but the tactics are wrong and it's important that people like Jack resist this misinformation generated, as I say by sensationalist media and its followers.

:thumbup:

 

[quattromori]

Jack,
it's sad to hear that policemen in the UK might act like that. I had a greater opinion of British law enforcement officers.

Gary,
I really hope you'll enjoy my country, if you come to visit. As for knife laws here, there might be things you wish to know. Email me if you want to talk about the topic, ok? No reason to come knifeless.

Kris,
I don't know if you live on the right side of the world, I don't think you do...but you surely are on the right side of the grill
There's only one thing that I really like in American food culture, and it's the BBQ thing. I love cooking, and sooner or later I will explore that world, and learn.
For now, I just drool

I was working as "field medic" at a local rally car competition today. Awful heat in our position, but two good things made my day. The first, is that the ambulance didn't have to move for all the race, which is always good. The second thing is more knife related. Along with me were the paramedics I was working with; one of them had brought his wife and daughter, a girl about ten or eleven years old. During a pause between the first and the second round, I took a walk among the trees, found a piece of wood on the ground, sat on a rock wall and started making a stick out of it with my CSC pinch lockback. I'm not really a master of this art, but I do enjoy spending my time on it now and then. After a little while, and when I had managed to put some sort of point on both ends, I walked down towards the ambulance as the second round was about to start, and took the stick with me. The little girl got curious about it, I gave it to her, then she asked me how I had done it, and if I could "clean it up" in the middle part, so when the second round was over I pulled out my knife and I did the job as she was looking at me with nothing less than curiosity and amusement. She didn't even ask anything about the knife, and walked away happily with her stick as she used it to draw on the ground while cars passed racing. Nice afternoon after all

Fausto

 

[r8shell]

Seriously- how could anyone in their right mind object to a small non locking knife in a first aid kit?

This discussion was making me sad, until I saw some BBQ to cheer me up. (and you know your Texas BBQ: slow, indirect heat, dry rub. Everything else is called grilling)

 

[Jack Black]

Jack,
it's sad to hear that policemen in the UK might act like that. I had a greater opinion of British law enforcement officers

Seriously- how could anyone in their right mind object to a small non locking knife in a first aid kit?

A lot of it seems to be based on sheer ignorance of the law, and the order has definitely come down from above - 'Get knives off the streets'! There's a huge anti-knife propaganda campaign here, which has really influenced people. Most cops out on the beat are probably too young to remember a time when almost every man carried a pocket-knife, and are probably as conned by the propaganda as almost everyone else. Plus I guess many of them have seen things that don't put knife carry in a good light. If I was stopped and searched, I would at the very least, expect a lengthy and expensive legal battle to get my knife back.

 

[pertinux]

6 lb local Montana beef brisket, Texas style, indirect heat(not using lump charcoal for this one), hickory, simple rub with cumin and chilli pepper, etc.

Wow, Kris! That looks tremendous. :thumbup:

So, does that round out to 3 lbs each, or was it more of a 4-2 distribution?

~ P.

 

[Peregrin]

Gary,
I really hope you'll enjoy my country, if you come to visit. As for knife laws here, there might be things you wish to know. Email me if you want to talk about the topic, ok? No reason to come knifeless.
Fausto

Thanks, Fausto. I'll take you up on that offer. I'd be happy to find out I can carry a small slip joint on the trip.

 

[MT Damascus]

Sarah, its definitely for 4!

Enjoying a Crabbie's from Glasgow, UK with BBQ duty. Very good with a slice of lime.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Wow, Jack, just wow, definitely not for me.

6 lb local Montana beef brisket, Texas style, indirect heat(not using lump charcoal for this one), hickory, simple rub with cumin and chilli pepper, etc. Every hour I will add 20 coals and 1 cup hickory, low heat 250 degrees for 6 hours. I have lots of IPA to keep me...

Kris

Looks for an awesome day. I have to agree, I think you are living in a good part of the world. I have a strong desire to move out to the North and West. Maybe even as far as Alaska. I would definitely love to try it. Hopefully, in a couple of years, I can get my life back together and convince my wife that places with cold weather really aren't so bad.

 

[pmew]

I have been away on the Isle of Barra working at a music festival again this weekend and seem to have missed a most interesting discussion. This seems an appropriate time to mention that I am a Police Constable.
I can't speak for my Northern Irish, Welsh or English colleagues, Scottish law is very different to the rest of the UK, but there are many things that we share. The knife legislation as afore mentioned is one of them; a folding blade of no more than three inches in length and does not lock open. Should you have just reason for having something bigger about your person, then that's fine too. This legislation has made a huge difference in the prevention of violent crime in Scotland, and the conviction rates have shown proof in the pudding.
As far as the other incidents that have been discussed here, I would be interested to read the entries that the reporting officers put on their own incident recording systems. I expect that those entries paint a slightly different picture to the ones which were portrayed by the media, often it all comes down to the way it's told. For instance, from my own beat;
Fact: 66 year old man is arrested outside his own house for being in possession of a knife with a two and a half inch blade.
This sentence is short and entirely true. However, how it is embroidered and understood is entirely in the hands of the publisher and most importantly the reader. Obviously there is more to the statement which isn't being revealed.
I expect that the majority of us here are mature enough to realise the UK Police forces are often caught between a rock and a hard place and suffer a level of scrutiny which is almost unique in its intensity. That said, inevitably, mistakes will be made and apologies must be offered where required.
I hope that my friends here can appreciate that on the whole, discretion is exercised where it can be. I have no desire to make criminals out of people, and I expect my colleagues feel the same. Unfortunately, it is easier to stab someone with a knife than without one.

If you are in disagreement with me then that's fine, different opinions are where democracy thrives, but I won't reply to Police bashing. I am proud to serve, I work hard and I treat people fairly and with dignity. I like traditional pocket knives, but I always use them within the confines of the law that society has written. I must respect the decisions of the majority no matter my own idiosyncrasies.

Paul

 

[whetrock]

I find the info on EDC knives in the UK, pretty disturbing, but good to know. I didn't understand it would be a hassle to carry even the Vic Classic. Probably the most "politically correct", pocket knife I know of. It seems like the general populace is slowly being displaced from even the least of cutlery that's meant to be carried on a daily basis. Pretty sad. Knives are lapsing in popularity here as well in the scheme of things, but most men locally do carry a folder of some sort usually a Case in Yellow Delrin/CV.