Catastrophic failure of a Fox 599-XT. Customer service only made excuses. My opinion: stay away.

[Murdamook]

The knife issue aside, OP’s initial email to Fox was beyond horrible. If I’m Fox, I’d prefer not to have OP as a customer anymore, honestly.

And to people bitching about Fox’s warranty vs. dealer return: it could simply be that there’s zero warranty work to be done and they don’t want to replace a blade if the lock is a problem. Using a distro as a middle man probably saves them significant shipping costs since they are in Italy, after all.

I have a Fox DART and a trainer. The trainer has been smashed and bashed against trees, heavy bags, wooden target boards, etc. and I have zero failure, play, etc.

 

[DMG]

I agree that there's no problem w/the OP being "pissed" and, based on this experience, he is certainly entitlled to swear off buying any Fox knife ever again.

However, what's NOT ok to me about the OP's post is that he is recommending that everone else "Stay Away" from Fox knives based upon this single experience, which has NOT been proven to be due to a "serious safety issue" caused by a defect in the mfg of the knife and which MAY have been attributable (at least in part) to user "error."

As I've posted previously, I own 2 Fox karambits and have had absolutely NO problems w/them.

Would it be fair for me to say that ALL Fox products are perfectly safe based on my experience. Of course, not.

Nor should the OP be entitled to condemn all of Fox's knives based on his sole experience either.

He is also posting it on reddit and other forums.

 

[DMG]

That makes no sense. It was either broken or it wasn't. I doubt that you or anybody else could snap a piece of the tang off like that unless it was already seriously compromised to the point of failure. Opening the knife didn't "break" it. It was already broken. All the OP did was open the knife a few times so that the pieces fell out. Better it happened then than if the knife was actually being used to cut something.

That is assuming the OP didnt do something awful to the knife and lie about it. He hasnt been truthful about other parts of his tale.

 

[Arathol]

That is assuming the OP didnt do something awful to the knife and lie about it. He hasnt been truthful about other parts of his tale.

I don't see how the tang could possibly break like that unless it was defective to begin with. There is no evidence that "something awful" was done to that knife. Making baseless accusations is pointless.

 

[NG VI]

I don't see how the tang could possibly break like that unless it was defective to begin with. There is no evidence that "something awful" was done to that knife. Making baseless accusations is pointless.

It's got a secondary lock that OP never mentioned touching, there's reason to believe it may not have been defective at all but rather broken by OP's insistence on repeatedly forcing open a knife that was locked in the closed position, or forcing it past the secondary lock to close it and then leaving it 'locked' while continuing to force it open and closed.

The end user has a minimal responsibility to learn the features of their knife before declaring it 'broken', and repeatedly forcing something that doesn't want to go is a prime technique for hurting yourself and breaking your stuff. OP does not possess the vibes of someone who does their homework.

 

[Hackenslash]

It's got a secondary lock that OP never mentioned touching, there's reason to believe it may not have been defective at all but rather broken by OP's insistence on repeatedly forcing open a knife that was locked in the closed position, or forcing it past the secondary lock to close it and then leaving it 'locked' while continuing to force it open and closed.

The end user has a minimal responsibility to learn the features of their knife before declaring it 'broken', and repeatedly forcing something that doesn't want to go is a prime technique for hurting yourself and breaking your stuff. OP does not possess the vibes of someone who does their homework.

This times 5,000.

The elephant in the room is the OP’s refusal to address the secondary lock mechanism. This is looking more and more to be a case of operator error on a knife that may have had a manufacturing defect.

The OP withheld the full facts of their interchange with the manufacturer. The OP misrepresented the manufacturer’s response.The OP has been silent (and absent) regarding their handling of the knife. The OP disregarded BF rules for posting areas. How much credibility do they have left?

The OP is doing exactly what they threatened to do: drag the reputation of a knife maker through the mud. Their motives were declared and we’ve seen the results. Why is this getting any more consideration? Be more savvy, Blade Forums.

I’m calling BS on this.

 

[Bob Denman]

I’m calling BS on this.

Yup...

 

[Arathol]

It's got a secondary lock that OP never mentioned touching, there's reason to believe it may not have been defective at all but rather broken by OP's insistence on repeatedly forcing open a knife that was locked in the closed position, or forcing it past the secondary lock to close it and then leaving it 'locked' while continuing to force it open and closed.

The end user has a minimal responsibility to learn the features of their knife before declaring it 'broken', and repeatedly forcing something that doesn't want to go is a prime technique for hurting yourself and breaking your stuff. OP does not possess the vibes of someone who does their homework.

I dare you to try breaking a piece of tempered steel by doing what you describe. The lock mechanism or the handle would break first.

 

[toker]

I dare you to try breaking a piece of tempered steel by doing what you describe. The lock mechanism or the handle would break first.

That's what I don't get either. There's no way the blade should have fractured at that point no matter how hard or often it was deployed.

 

[DocJD]

This is NOT obvious at all! The knife wasn't broken before he got it. It broke after he f*cked w/it.

That breakage "may" have been due to a defect in mfg BUT if he didn't F*CK w/it, it would not have broken before he sent it back to the dealer.

Please explain !

I'd truly like to understand how this type of damage could possibly result from the activity that OP describes .

If the knife suffered that much damage from what I consider normal break-in , than it's a grossly defective POS , IMO .
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Also , why are so many poster here accepting that a knife co. basically needs zero effective QC to assure a safe product for the general public , who are not necessarily knowledgeable or skilled with handling knife problems in a brand new knife ?

If OP is misrepresenting the facts ...that's an entirely different story .

 

[DocJD]

It's got a secondary lock that OP never mentioned touching, there's reason to believe it may not have been defective at all but rather broken by OP's insistence on repeatedly forcing open a knife that was locked in the closed position, or forcing it past the secondary lock to close it and then leaving it 'locked' while continuing to force it open and closed.

The end user has a minimal responsibility to learn the features of their knife before declaring it 'broken', and repeatedly forcing something that doesn't want to go is a prime technique for hurting yourself and breaking your stuff. OP does not possess the vibes of someone who does their homework.

IIRC , OP said knife was difficult to open but that he had, in fact, repeatedly done so , to try and break it in .

If the safely lock was mistakenly engaged , how could the knife be opened and closed repeatedly or even once ?

 

[toker]

If OP is misrepresenting the facts ...that's an entirely different story .

Even if he did, I've never seen this kind of break in a folder and short of taking the knife apart and hitting it with a hammer or an angle grinder. I'm not sure how it could have fractured if it already didn't have structural problems.

 

[Arathol]

That's what I don't get either. There's no way the blade should have fractured at that point no matter how hard or often it was deployed.

In addition, the so-called secondary lock is a LAWKS system. This is just a slide switch on the handle that in effect keeps the lock in place when the blade is in the open position so the knife can't close. This can't be used if the knife is closed, has no effect on opening the knife, and once you open the knife and the LAWKS lock is in slid into place the blade can't move at all without bending or breaking something.

 

[Hackenslash]

I dare you to try breaking a piece of tempered steel by doing what you describe. The lock mechanism or the handle would break first.

That's what I don't get either. There's no way the blade should have fractured at that point no matter how hard or often it was deployed.

Please explain !

I'd truly like to understand how this type of damage could possibly result from the activity that OP describes .

If the knife suffered that much damage from what I consider normal break-in , than it's a grossly defective POS , IMO .
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
Also , why are so many poster here accepting that a knife co. basically needs zero effective QC to assure a safe product for the general public , who are not necessarily knowledgeable or skilled with handling knife problems in a brand new knife ?

If OP is misrepresenting the facts ...that's an entirely different story .

IIRC , OP said knife was difficult to open but that he had, in fact, repeatedly done so , to try and break it in .

If the safely lock was mistakenly engaged , how could the knife be opened and closed repeatedly or even once ?

Even if he did, I've never seen this kind of break in a folder and short of taking the knife apart and hitting it with a hammer or an angle grinder. I'm not sure how it could have fractured if it already didn't have structural problems.

These points don’t matter. The OP hasn’t been completely honest regarding their actions with the knife and their interactions with Fox. They’ve expressed an intent to damage the maker with libel. We have no idea what happened with a knife that may have had a manufacturing defect, but multiple parts of the OPs story stink. How much more do you need to call stink over the entire event?

I agree with you all that a failure of this mode seems impossible. All the more reason to step back and question EVERYTHING you’ve been told.

In addition, the so-called secondary lock is a LAWKS system. This is just a slide switch on the handle that in effect keeps the lock in place when the blade is in the open position so the knife can't close. This can't be used if the knife is closed, has no effect on opening the knife, and once you open the knife and the LAWKS lock is in slid into place the blade can't move at all without bending or breaking something.

This is my fault. I mistakenly called it a LAWKs mechanism. That doesn’t appear to be the case. A LAWKs pivots against the tang of an open blade. This mechanism looks different and appears to lock the pivot.

 

[killgar]

Possibility #1- The knife was defective and broke from normal use. Which would suck, and give the OP justifiable reason to be miffed, but can anyone name a production knife maker that has never let a lemon out the door? Heck, I've even seen posts on this forum from people who had to send their Sebenza's back for work. I wouldn't condemn any knife maker for ONE defective knife.

Of course if this were a common issue with Fox knives that would be a different story. But is there ANY evidence that this is anything other than an isolated incident? I haven't seen any, and the OP hasn't provided any.


Possibility #2- The OP was abusing or misusing the knife in some way, perhaps in a way that he has chosen not to share, in which case I certainly wouldn't blame Fox.

In considering this possibility I have to look at everything- In my opinion, the OP responded in a highly inappropriate and irrational manner in his initial email to Fox, and has apparently gone on an internet vendetta against Fox. For me, that raises major questions about his state of mind, and his credibility. If someone is willing to engage in such behavior over a single broken knife, despite receiving an APOLOGY from the company, and a refund from the dealer, I can't help but question the validity of his story.


As I stated earlier, I think Fox responded as well as they possibly could. In fact, I'd say their response went above and beyond the call of customer service considering the insult and threat they received from the OP in his email.

But in any event, I have no stake in the matter one way or the other, just conversation on the internet. A knife broke, no one was seriously injured (a "paper cut" the OP said), the maker responded politely and offered an undeserved apology, and the OP is going to get a refund. It's not the end of the world for the OP, and I don't think it should be a black eye for Fox.

 

[DocJD]

Either OP was basically honest and truthful about the relevant facts of how the knife was received and his actions in attempting to smooth out the action ...or he has deliberately misrepresented the basic situation for some reason .

Maybe a forensic engineer (or whatever expert) could determine how the damage occurred , and if it came that way from the factory , or was caused ,all or in part, by the OP .

I certainly don't know , except to doubt that the OP could have done such damage, by his described actions , to any decent knife .

 

[Jsega51]

I’m taking the advice in the title of the thread and staying away from the OP!

 

[RousingRabbles]

Either OP was basically honest and truthful about the relevant facts of how the knife was received and his actions in attempting to smooth out the action ...or he has deliberately misrepresented the basic situation for some reason .

Maybe a forensic engineer (or whatever expert) could determine how the damage occurred , and if it came that way from the factory , or was caused ,all or in part, by the OP .

I certainly don't know , except to doubt that the OP could have done such damage, by his described actions , to any decent knife .

I'm not a forensic engineer, but you can see a small stress crack at the point of the bend in the broken pivot piece I linked. This would imply to me that the knife was most likely repeatedly forced in a way that bent the tang at the pivot. It is highly unlikely the knife would have passed through multiple hands with a bend like that and not have been noticed. Someone along the way caused this. My best guess is that the knife may or may not have had a poor heat treat from the factory but OP repeatedly forced it while the secondary lock was engaged, which bent the pivot tang repeatedly until the amount of force finally caused the blade to snap. Like bending the tab from an aluminum can repeatedly. Obviously this should be high(ish) performance steel, but any steel will break under the right amount of repetitive force and pressure.

 

[Arathol]

I'm not a forensic engineer, but you can see a small stress crack at the point of the bend in the broken pivot piece I linked. This would imply to me that the knife was most likely repeatedly forced in a way that bent the tang at the pivot. It is highly unlikely the knife would have passed through multiple hands with a bend like that and not have been noticed. Someone along the way caused this. My best guess is that the knife may or may not have had a poor heat treat from the factory but OP repeatedly forced it while the secondary lock was engaged, which bent the pivot tang repeatedly until the amount of force finally caused the blade to snap. Like bending the tab from an aluminum can repeatedly. Obviously this should be high(ish) performance steel, but any steel will break under the right amount of repetitive force and pressure.

How could the tang be bent laterally enough to cause that break? It would take some serious effort to even bend it, let alone bend it repeatedly enough to cause a failure from fatigue. To bend it enough to cause a fatigue crack the handle would be bent and the pivot broken. If anything, you'd have to strike the blade from the side with a hammer or put it in a vice and bend it using the handle as a lever to snap it off like that. The pictures clearly show a knife that looks new and undamaged other than a broken tang.
Again you can't "force it" with the secondary lock engaged. The blade won't move if it is engaged, it won't engage if the blade is closed.

 

[bax229]

4 pages on this?!?