Cattaraugus Q225 ~

[evergreensSequoiaseucalyptusandOaks]

When you see a lot of Cattaraugus Q225 Knives their Handles have a Indention on most of their leather stacked handles as if their handles had a rope or cord tide around them instead of wearing them on their belts, is this how a majority of the soldiers had secured them or just a certain platoon or company depending on where they were stationed, because I have seen some without the markings but far and few in-between ~ ?​

 

[wilsonj1018]

ive seen some of the handles wrapped in leather cordage over the stacked handles, and some wrapped in it to replace broken or missing leather discs.. i would guess that the ones with indentations were wrapped for extra grip, as oiled leather discs get a tad slippery when wet.

 

[JD Mandrell]

Those indents in the leather were caused by wire used to secure the knives to the outside of wooden crates.

The Cattaraugus Q225 was a Quartermaster's knife, not an issue combat knife. Surplus ones were marketed after the war as "Marine Corp. Commando Knives" to sell them off to the public.

 

[Hickory n steel]

Those indents in the leather were caused by wire used to secure the knives to the outside of wooden crates.

The Cattaraugus Q225 was a Quartermaster's knife, not an issue combat knife. Surplus ones were marketed after the war as "Marine Corp. Commando Knives" to sell them off to the public.

I'm pretty sure they were sold as the cattaraugus commando ( I've seen ww2 era advertisement pages for them ), and the the quartermaster thing is just a theory / myth.
Could that wear in the handle actually be from the retention strap ?

 

[sac troop]

The two Quartermaster knives, the Cattaraugus 225Q, and the Case 337Q knife were the result of the Quartermaster Corps being tasked with setting specifications and procuring production for an all purpose utility knife starting in 1942. This knife was available and distributed to all branches of the U.S. military. There were still some supplies of these knives NIB in parts of the U.S. supply system at least as late as the 1960's. As Frank Trzaska wrote about this knife, the total number of knives procured by the U.S. Government would have been enough to supply everyone in the Quartermaster Corps, (including the secretaries in the typing pools back in the U.S.),with two of them.
I've seen two of the old knives still in their original Government packaging when opened had the grooves in the handle that look like they were made with a rat tail file or similar tool.
IMHO, examples of the 225Q knife with a smooth handle were likely made after the war or smoothed up by a previous owner.

 

[evergreensSequoiaseucalyptusandOaks]

Great information and thank you, I too have read up somewhere on the use of these being used for the opening and closing of surplus crates, and that this is one of the reasons in its design for the heavy pommel and its checkering pattern on its butt in order for it to be proficiently used as a hammer per say ~

Thank You

 

[Thomas Linton]

The knife was an issue combat utility knife issued to Army and Marine combat personnel. My Uncle traded for one from a Marine and I have a photo of one being carried by an 11th Airborne trooper. They were not intended for Quartermaster use to open crates. Using it as a pry bar would have snapped the blade in half - too thin and too hard. The indentations were made at the factory to improve grip. Those indentations were often sanded away by military personnel after issue.

 

[BladeScout]

Those indents in the leather were caused by wire used to secure the knives to the outside of wooden crates..

No, indents were made at the factory. But new theory - THAT one I hadnt heard before (!!). How on earth did you come up with that one?

The Cattaraugus Q225 was a Quartermaster's knife, not an issue combat knife.

No no no, that is simply NOT so. It is an unfortunate myth which keeps being perpetuated ad nauseam.

The knife was an issue combat utility knife issued to Army and Marine combat personnel. My Uncle traded for one from a Marine and I have a photo of one being carried by an 11th Airborne trooper. They were not intended for Quartermaster use to open crates. Using it as a pry bar would have snapped the blade in half - too thin and too hard. The indentations were made at the factory to improve grip. Those indentations were often sanded away by military personnel after issue.

Correct.

The indents were made at the factory by a cutting tool.

It is very unfortunate that the myth of the lovely 225Q (of which Im a big fan and have a bunch) being a 'Quartermasters knife for opening crates' is being perpetuated ad nauseam.

A ridiculous myth, as surely there would have been pry bars/crowbárs for opening crates and as not even the military would have specified a knife for only opening crates during WWII.

 

[BladeScout]

As I always do, when the Cattaraugus 225Q pops up and when the myth of the Quartermaster is mentioned, I post the definitive text on the 225Q by Frank Trzaska.

It is long winded but might prove interesting for those into the Cattaraugus 225Q

"By Frank Trzaska 2004
The Cattaraugus 225Q and the Case 337Q knives have always intrigued me. Perhaps it is
some of the myths that always circulated about them that drew me in. I love the challenge
associated with a knife with a mainly oral history. Very little has been written about the
Q knives in the way of facts. We can find photos of them in just about every theatre of
World War Two being worn by front line fighters yet the myth is that the were issued to
Quartermaster personal for opening crates. Just on the surface it sounds ridiculous that a
knife would be procured for such a use when crowbars had been in inventory for just
such a task. In fact there were even specialized crate opening tools specified for that job
in Quartermaster catalogs. The myth grown up around these knives even has the pommel
as being designed to hammer the nails back into the crates apparently after the wrong box
is opened. It sounds fishy when put into this type of context yet the myth continues to
grow and to spread. Like most good urban legends some fact is always present to make
the myth palatable to the majority of people. In this article we hope to end some of those
urban legends and present the facts associated with the misunderstood and under
appreciated Q knives.
At the start of World War Two it is a known fact that the U.S. forces were woefully under
prepared to wage a war on this large of a scale. In fact a war this large had never been
fought before or for that fact ever since. Many new ventures would be engaged in to meet
the production demands of such a large force. Knives were but one aspect of the new
style war to be fought. It became immediately known that the U.S. forces were short of
cutlery of all types. To meet this demand it was decided to use whatever style could be
put into immediate production. The early Marine Corps Raider knives were nothing more
then Camillus hunting knives quickly popped out and sent to the newly formed group.
Along these same lines the portion of the military tasked with purchasing all types of
supplies was the Quartermaster Corps. The Army had their own Quartermaster Corps as
did the Navy, both of which cooperated but were usually tasked with much different
problems. In this specific task they were both looking for the same type of vendor to
produce an item in great need by all branches of the services. Fast production was needed
so a style of construction was chosen which would lead to little changes needed by the
producing factories. This was a simple matter in choosing a stacked leather handle that
had been in continuous production since at least the turn of the century. Other then that
simple order any six inch bladed hunting knife would do. Our good friend Carter Rila has
made a great distinction between somewhat common words that will come into play with
these knives. He distinguishes the word "type" and "pattern" for just such an occasion. A
“pattern” is a knife made to a specific design, subtle differences are known to exist but
the knife generally follows a pattern. A classic example would be a common USN Mark
2 knife. Made by Ka-Bar, Camillus, Pal and Robeson Shuredge they all look much the
same following a specific pattern. A “type” is a knife purchased for a specific general
task but not following a specific pattern. A classic example of a type is the USN Mark 1
knife. A five-inch bladed hunting knife that will fit a similar scabbard. The first fixed
blade knives procured were of the “type” designation. A six-inch bladed hunting knife
with stacked leather handle. The Pal RH36, the Robeson / U.S.A., the Case 325-6 and the
Queen City knives all fit this designation. Right on the heels of the earliest procurements
the Quartermaster Corps standardized on a design for the six-inch bladed knives and we
find ourselves switching over to a “pattern” knife, the well-known Q knives. We all know
the military likes standardization so it was only a matter of time until this happened.
Designed by the Quartermaster Corps, the Bill of Materials list was number B/M No. TJC7
dated 12/1/1942 the official nomenclature is "Special Hunting Knives, 6", No.225.”
The Bill of Materials for 1000 knives included 904 lbs. of High Carbon hot rolled cutlery
blade steel. Carbon content to be not less the 1.0% while not more the 1.1% (this amounts
to basic 1095) and 211 lbs. cold rolled SAE 1010 steel was called for in the manufacture
of the guards and butt plates. A later Bill of Materials was issued to Case with the knife
designated No.337, we do not know the reason for this change but suspect the change in
handle design. These procurements were handled by the Jefferson City Quartermaster
Depot, which had control over most of the cutleries in the Northeast U.S. We list the
above as absolute proof that the Q knives were Quartermaster designed and procured for
military issue. But you say we already knew that, it is part of that myth you were talking
about. Well we still have more to the story.
Next we move on to contracts. If the knives were officially procured by the military there
must be a trail of contracts to follow. In many cases the factories that made the knives no
longer exist and of those that do, much of the old paperwork was thrown away. They are
not in the history business; they make knives for a living. With that said we managed to
locate a file of all contracts listing purchase over $50,000 dollars. The file, known as the
Alphabetical Listing of Major War Supply Contractors was put out by the Civilian
Production Administration, Industrial Statistics Division. It covers purchases from June
1940 to September 1945 when the huge cancellation order was put into effect. Looking
up Cattaraugus we find they had seven major contracts totaling over $1,238,000.00 for
Hunting Knives. Even at the high price of $1.25 each that would mean over one million
knives were procured from 1942 through 1945 by Cattaraugus alone. Even if every
Quartermaster supply clerk, sewing machine operator, driver and baker had two knives
issued to them it would not have amounted to that total. To think these knives were only
issued to Quartermaster personal is ludicrous. Add to that total two contracts issued to
Case for a total of $295,000.00 we can say with authority that these knives were procured
for general issue to fighting men. The known contracts are as follows listing the item,
contract number, branch, amount, issue date and completion date:
Cattaraugus
Knives 1913QM9627 Army $76,000.00 12/1/1942 6/1/1943
Knives 1913QM10585 Army $76,000.00 1/1/1943 4/1/1943
Knives 1913QM11694 Army $340,000.00 2/1/1943 7/1/1943
Knives 28021QM3029 Army $381,000.00 10/1/1943 6/1/1944
Knives 28021QM11497 Army $110,000.00 3/1/1944 9/1/1944
Knives 28021QM16054 Army $114,000.00 8/1/1944 12/1/1944
Knives 28021QM24308 Army $141,000.00 11/1/1944 6/1/1945
Case
Knives 1913QM11693 Army $213,000.00 2/1/1943 6/1/1943
Knives 189XSX47599 Navy $82,000.00 12/1/1944 6/1/1945
It should also be noted that the Quartermaster Corps did not procure items for sale by the
P.X. system or for the Navy Ships Stores system. Private sales of these contract items
were not an issue; the War Production Board would never have approved this much steel
and labor. Let's face it, the Quartermaster Corps designed these knives for military
procurement and general issue to our fighting forces. Why they were never shown in the
Quartermaster catalogs is a mystery but it does not change the facts.
The first contract we find dated 12/1/1942 with the last one dated 12/1/1944 due for
completion 6/1/1945. With that information we can also state with certainty that the Q
knives were produced for the entire duration of the U.S. involvement in the war. Of all
the contracts cited above, the Navy only assigned one. The Army entered into all the
remaining contracts. It is interesting to note that of the two Case contracts the first, dated
2/1/1943 was for $213,000.00 to the Army while the second contract for $82,000.00 was
entered into by the Navy on 12/1/1944. We are going out on a limb here and speculating,
something I hate to do mind you, but it fits the bill so nice. The more common of the
Case knives found is the one marked "Case XX" while the knife marked "Case" only is
rather uncommon to encounter. Could it be the different contract numbers correlate to the
different markings? Could the "Case XX" knife be from the larger Army contract while
the uncommon “Case” only marked knife from the Navy contract? Not that it would have
been a specific request to change the marking but more of a economic savings if Case
were to use a stamping die they had in use at the time that did not have the “XX” in it.
For the small run of knives it would be safe to say that Case would not have went to the
expense of having a die made if they did not already have one available. Additional
research on the subject is needed to prove just such a fact. Speculate away folks; to me it
is only a theory, yet to be validated through further investigation.
As for the knives themselves they are about the most robust knives ever made for the
military. The myth about opening crates could actually have some truth to it; these knives
are capable of doing it. And the thick pommels are more then capable of driving nails
although a tent peg is much more likely to be struck by the butt. The Cattaraugus consists
of a 1095 steel blade that is 6 inches in length with the knife having an overall length of
10 3/8 inches. The Case knife shares the same blade length but comes in at 10 inches
overall. To my hand the longer Case handle is more comfortable but the Catt is adequate
to do the job. Both knives have a stacked leather washer handle but the finish is very
much different. The typical Catt knife has a smooth leather handle roughed up in the
center section with gouges to the leather for a sure grip. The cutting tool intentionally
applied the gouges; it is not a mistake. The Case knife is finished on a broaching wheel
with 18 circular grooves which produces a much more professional and eye pleasing
result. Both knives allow a good grip surface it’s just that the Case knife looks better. The
pommels of the two knives are quite different. They both have the same dimensions but
the Case knife consists of one large piece of steel while the Catt knife uses three
independent steel disks stacked on top of each other and finished off with two nails
driven through line up holes on the disks into the leather. It is a simple yet ingenious
system to secure the pommel with a minimum amount of trouble and it is extremely
strong. In fact I do not think I have ever seen a Q knife with the pommel broken off. Both
knives have the pommel faces finished off in a waffle pattern. This could have no other
reason that I am aware of other then preventing the pommel from slipping while
hammering. Now whether driving nails or tent pegs you can take your choice but there is
no doubt it was made for hammering.
During the background search for this article I was greatly aided by our esteemed editor
Mark Zalesky who sent me newspaper clippings from the Buffalo Evening News
Magazine. It was a short story on knives made in the area from the many cutleries doing
business in the region. Dated April 7, 1945 it is almost at the end of the war but we were
still battling at the time. In an interview with Mr. J.B.F. Champlin, President of
Cattaraugus Cutlery we find a very curious statement. On the topic of the "Commando
Knives" made there Mr. Champlin states: "Handsome gadgets, men can use them to open
boxes, drive nails, cut throats, open coconuts" and dig foxholes." So here we find the
basis for the myth, or perhaps the truth. While not specifically designed to open boxes the
knives were expected to do just such duty among other things. We also find that Mr.
Champlain’s son Jack, 21 was currently serving in Europe with the Quartermaster Corps.
Coincidence you say? Maybe. They also stated Jack carried a 225Q knife made especially
for him. Now that is a Q knife I would love to see!
Another contact made during the ongoing investigation was Chuck Karwan. Chuck is a
well-known gun and knife writer who had written an article on the Q knives for Knives
98 Annual. I would suggest reading it if you haven’t already. It seems Chuck has a great
appreciation for the Q knives, he lists them among his favorites. What many folks do not
know is Mr. Karwan is a Vietnam combat veteran and continued to serve for many more
years. Chuck has carried many knives in his time in the field and to rank the Q knife up
there as a favorite is a major statement. Mr. Karwan assisted me in the search and
confirmed information from his many service friends on contracting entities.
So that about sums it up for the history on the Q knives for now. We can dispel the myth
that they were private purchase knives, we have contracts to prove otherwise. We can say
with certainty they were for general issue, not just for Quartermaster personal by the
sheer amount of the knives made. We can state as fact these knives were made to a
specific pattern designed by the Quartermaster Corps just like an M3 was made to a
specific pattern designed by the Ordnance Corps from the bill of materials listing. And
last but not least we can point to Mr. JBF Champlin who stated for a 1945 article that the
knives could open boxes and drive nails, perhaps as the beginning of that often told tale.
I never could find a written specification as to "why" the left-handed sheath. The proper
placement of the bayonet on the belt in the uniform of the time was on the left rear
quadrant. The knife was designed to fit this same space hence the orientation of the
sheath.
All the best
Frank Trzaska"

 

[Roamad]

Thanks BladeScout, you beat me to it!

I didn't know the grip indents were made at the factory. But it doesn't surprise me, since I've never seen a 225Q without them. They are actually quite practical to improve grip!

 

[BladeScout]

Thanks BladeScout, you beat me to it!

:thumbup:

Here my first of several Cat 225Q knives.

I encountered this at a local small gun show years ago.
A stack of used knives had this one forlornly peeking out at the bottom of the stack.
I asked to handle it and got to check out the 225.
It was dusty and slightly pitted and with some other indeterminable patina and a not original sheath.
It looked pretty dirty and nasty truth be told.
I left it at the table and left the show but couldnt get it out of my head.
I called a friend with a stall at the show and had him make the owner of the knife an offer, which was accepted.
I got it for a silly low amount back then. They can still be had for an okay price but prices on the 'bay have risen and some are absolutely priced ridiculously high.

The Cat cleaned up very well and much to my surprise, there was basically a new knife with completely unaltered lines under all the grime and surface patina.

Many of the Cats have been used, abused and sharpened all to heck, so this was a nice surprise.

Now, after having purchased several of these, this the first one is still the one in the best condition of the handful of Cattaraugus 225Q knives, that I own. It is and always will be, one of my favorite knives.

 

[Roamad]

That's sure a beauty. Mine isn't as pointy and the swedge isn't as crisp. I've wanted to fix those things but I'm reluctant to take the "experience" out of it. Picked it up at an antique store for $45, if I recall correctly, about 4-5 years ago. :love_heart:

 

[JD Mandrell]

I'm pretty sure they were sold as the cattaraugus commando

I think they slapped anything on them, that would sell them. Here's a couple of old ads I have, calling them a "Cattaraugus fish knife" and "U.S. Marine Cattaraugus Commando Knife".

 

[JD Mandrell]

No, indents were made at the factory. But new theory - THAT one I hadnt heard before (!!). How on earth did you come up with that one?

Scouring through countless articles and postings on them online, I came across some older vets saying them saw them attached to crates with wire twisted around the handles to hold them on. But, memory being what it is, I can see them maybe being influenced by the "legend". The "done at the factory" makes more sense, as I can't ever recall seeing a Q225 without those marks.

Beast a knife either way, I cleaned up the one I showed above, and even with it's age, it's still a solid worker!



I had one the guys here on BF make a kydex sheath for it.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I need to take some better pictures, but here is mine in its original sheath, a gift to me from the estate of my mother-in-law's father:

 

[BladeScout]

That is a solid CAT right there (not that I mind a bit of honest wear).

 

[JD Mandrell]

That is a solid CAT right there (not that I mind a bit of honest wear).

She can still get it done, cleaning up storm debris a few years ago.





Honestly, I've got a lot of new knives that couldn't hold their own with this ol' workhorse!

 

[sac troop]

For anyone interested, here's some pictures of the details of the pommel construction for the Cat 225Q.

The middle disc clears the top of the tang and is rotated on the notch to lock it to the tang. The top piece is added and the two square shank twisted nails are hammered in to lock the three pieces of the pommel together.

 

[AreBeeBee]

These are great workhorses. I love mine, bought from the 'Bay, so I have no idea of its history. In any case, I retired the original sheath (seen on top in the photo below) and replaced it with a modern replica made by Harry Savage. I asked him to use slightly thicker leather, as the original sheaths were a little on the thin side — wartime economy, I suppose.

It had an acceptable edge, and I touched it up a bit but left the patina alone. Last year, with friends over for Thanksgiving, I carved the turkey with it. Much hooting and hollering ensued. Great fun!

 

[BladeScout]

She can still get it done, cleaning up storm debris a few years ago.

Nice to see the old warhorse getting a workout - after all, that was what it was made for.

Honestly, I've got a lot of new knives that couldn't hold their own with this ol' workhorse!

Ditto.

No doubt the CAT225Q can still do stellar service and Ive no doubt itll leave some modern knives in the dust.

Thats really the crux of the matter; most of us here like modern steels and the latest super steels (I know I do. Ive got ZDP knives and what have you but my latest small custom is a 1090), but when one cuts to the bone (no pun intended), a knife is really a simple tool.

We tend to forget, that our forefathers built nations/hunted with simple knives, which some would turn up their noses at today.

Simple carbon steel and 440 is plenty fine to get the job done for most people. Many have used carbon steel knives for generations and many a deer was skinned with a Buck. Little did those knife users know, that their knives were totally inadequate for the task.

Im pretty sure the CAT wont let me down if stranded in the wild and I had to make a shelter and prepare some food. Ease of use and ease of sharpening. Thats really where its at.