Benchmade China Knockoff Benchmade Bugout and Spyderco Paramilitary 2

[craytab]

Hi M Maxrez74 and welcome to Blade Forums. I'm going to answer your question directly, but then I'm going to answer from a standpoint as to why knockoff/homage/clone knives are bad for the industry.

In direct answer to your question,

I have handled many of the knockoff Spyderco knives. I've also handled many of the knockoff Benchmades, but not any of the Bugout. In every case the knockoff/homage/counterfeit knife DID NOT offer the same experience as the real thing.

Most often the failure lies in the make-up of the blade steel or the heat treat. If a counterfeit manufacturer is willing to copy a design, branding, trademark or feature, how can you expect them to use the same steel as they advertise? Even if the blade steel chemically matches the claim, you then are likely to find poor heat treat and edges that roll or chip. It's not just the blade steel that's suspect. I've seen these clone knives with "stainless" liners and hardware that are prone to rusting and/or stripping.

Following integrity of components, the next most common failure of knockoff/homage/counterfeit knives is in action. I've handled a lot of axis-style locks on these knives and the action never approaches that of a genuine Benchmade, Hogue or Millit. Other legit manufacturers are stepping up to offer their take on an Axis-style lock (Hogue = Able Lock) and doing a good job, but I've never seen a knockoff axis-style give the same pleasure and fidget factor that can be enjoyed with the original thing. An axis-style lock requires precise manufacturing, as does the compression style lock in the PM2. If the action of these clone knives are bad, I'd have to also suspect the stability of the lockup.

The third shortcoming of knockoff/homage/clone knives is in fit and finish. I've seen liners and scales not fit, blade centering off and clips that are either too tight or too loose.

Now to address the bigger problem with knockoff/homage/clone knives...

If it were simply a matter of your experience with a clone knife, I guess one could rationalize that 60% of the real thing is close enough. The problem is, in addition to compromised performance, these knives represent theft in the simplest form.

It takes money and resources to design a knife. The legit companies bear the burden of employing designers, mechanical engineers and equipment fabricators. They pay the cost of prototypes and testing. They absorb the financial obligation to advertise and market the new designs. In some cases they contribute considerable funds to obtain and maintain patents and trademarks. In most cases a legit manufacture will pay their employees a living wage with health care benefits and a retirement plan; anyone in business knows how huge this cost is relative to overall operating expenses. A clone/homage manufacturer avoids these costs and steals the labors of others (sometimes even their own workers) to bring a less expensive product to market.

That's not all. The cloners continue to steal because every time a clone Benchmade or Spyderco fails to perform it acts as a "black mark" against the legit manufacturer. Probably the most cloned brand has been Benchmade. Benchmade also probably has the most quality complaints of any major manufacturer. We have to consider that some of those failures in "Benchmade quality" are actually clone knives that are damaging the original's reputation. Is it possible that many of the negative reports of Benchmade quality are indeed caused by clones?

It also extends to knife retailers. Legit vendors have seen themselves undercut on price by imported clone knives. Upright distributors in the knife community lose out on business because clone knives are available at a lower cost. A legit dealer won't knowingly sell clones, so they watch their genuine stock linger on the shelves in the face of cheap/fake competition.

These cloners even steal from you and me; the knife consumer. Many folks will buy their first knife from eBay or Amazon and unwittingly receive a clone. Even a purchase from a big box store is no guarantee of a genuine knife. It's a known scam to order and import a clone, return that clone to a big box store for store credit and use the credit to select a genuine knife. Then some poor schmuck happens along and buys the returned clone and is never the wiser.

There is no way that knockoff/homage/clone knives represent an acceptable alternative. It becomes even clearer in the knife enthusiast community. We have designers and manufacturers who interact freely with us Knife Knuts on this forum. They are real people who are impacted each and every day by these clone knives, not faceless entities who seem so far away.

I'm glad you came here to ask your question. I apologize for writing so much, but this is a vitally important issue in the knife community. I'm happy to continue the discussion and help you find alternatives to a PM2 or a Bugout if they're not in your budget at this time. Welcome to Blade Forums and enjoy your time here. I know I have.

Tim

Very well said.

 

[evilgreg]

Ouch! Guess I'll remove the Emerson from my BladeHQ shopping cart and look for one on Fleabay!

Get an Emerson if you like them. They have some good designs and they're lovable in their own way, but expect to pay more than you'd expect for what you get, and lower your expectations around fit and finish to be unimpressive. IMO, they should cost less, or be better made, and no knife that is sold outside of the gas station market should have tolerances so loose.

If you can handle multiples before buying it's easier to find one that has no lock issues. I tried four or five CQC-7Vs in a row that had one lock issue or another when I was handling them in a big knife store (most of them just had lock stick, but one over-engaged and one clicked and shifted when you put a little pressure on the blade spine, IIRC). I was paranoid because the first CQC-7B I owned arrived new in the box with a blade that closed with about as much pressure on the spine as it takes to close a SAK.

I have come to love my modified CQC-7V, FWIW. It weighs too much, the handle is too boxy and fat in the pocket, the blade grind makes it a fat wedge and it has what feels like twice as much handle as blade, but it has grown on me and is a favorite all the same:

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

A design that has some similar features is one thing, but a clone of a PM2 with a different lock, just because it doesn't have the spyder... is still a clone. Same as any other brands knives. Usually the copies are or were a hugely popular design for the original company.

A clone is a knockoff minus the counterfeit branding. A clone PM2 won't have a different lock, it'll have a compression lock. A knife shaped like an Ontario RAT2 but with an Axis-style lock is not a clone or a counterfeit, it's its own, weird mashup "homage":

"Counterfeit"/"Fake" - trying to pass itself off as the original, including branding; essentially a 1:1 duplicate
"Clone" - copies an existing design but doesn't try to pass as the original (i.e. no branding or has the cloner's branding)
"Homage" - usually a tweaked version of an existing design (e.g. different locking mechanism; scaled up or down in size, etc.)

ive seen a few knockoffs of the bugout. there ar some on wish.com and aliexpress ive noticed. also a few sdpyderco para 2s and was wondering if anyone has them and if not, what do you think. the bugouts look pretty much like the real thing, and even have proper logos, however they come from china and the real thing is made in the US.

I recommend you go to r/ChineseKnives and r/BudgetBlades on Reddit if you want actual reviews.

 

[Boxer .45]

A clone is a knockoff minus the counterfeit branding. A clone PM2 won't have a different lock, it'll have a compression lock. A knife shaped like an Ontario RAT2 but with an Axis-style lock is not a clone or a counterfeit, it's its own, weird mashup "homage":

"Counterfeit"/"Fake" - trying to pass itself off as the original, including branding; essentially a 1:1 duplicate
"Clone" - copies an existing design but doesn't try to pass as the original (i.e. no branding or has the cloner's branding)
"Homage" - usually a tweaked version of an existing design (e.g. different locking mechanism; scaled up or down in size, etc.)



I recommend you go to r/ChineseKnives and r/BudgetBlades on Reddit if you want actual reviews.

I don't agree. When you have a copy of a PM2, and it has a liner lock, despite not having a brand or name....its still wrong. Its not an "Homage" anything. Its a fake, counterfeit, copy, whatever you want to name it. I have no respect for it.

 

[sabre cat]

I don't agree. When you have a copy of a PM2, and it has a liner lock, despite not having a brand or name....its still wrong. Its not an "Homage" anything. Its a fake, counterfeit, copy, whatever you want to name it. I have no respect for it.

Fine. You have no respect for it.
We get that.

However, it is not a counterfeit if it has a different lock system than the real deal. And, it can’t be a counterfeit with different markings than the real thing.

It can, however, be illegal or legal depending upon the situation. Right or wrong is up to you.

I am curious, do you personally consider copies, clones, and “homage” knives all counterfeit?

 

[Boxer .45]

Fine. You have no respect for it.
We get that.

However, it is not a counterfeit if it has a different lock system than the real deal. And, it can’t be a counterfeit with different markings than the real thing.

It can, however, be illegal or legal depending upon the situation. Right or wrong is up to you.

I am curious, do you personally consider copies, clones, and “homage” knives all counterfeit?

They are EXACT REPLICAS with a different locking system. Exact. I understand the term counterfeit, but when they try to pass it off as the same whether it has badging or name on it or its an exact copy, its still a counterfeit essentially. Its not a "Homage" by any measure.
Ever had an amateur at knives buy you a chinese copy of a "Swiss Army Knife" with different badging? The steel is cheap as well as the action, f&f? It wasn't an "Homage", it was a cheap trick to get the unsuspecting to buy it and take money away from the original company. And it worked. And it cost 1/2 to 1/3 the price, but still the end person (buyer) got ripped off.

My point is, it doesn't matter what name you put on it its wrong. Period.

Either you understand what I'm saying or you don't. But don't twist my words please.

 

[sabre cat]

They are EXACT REPLICAS with a different locking system. Exact. I understand the term counterfeit, but when they try to pass it off as the same whether it has badging or name on it or its an exact copy, its still a counterfeit essentially. Its not a "Homage" by any measure.
Ever had an amateur at knives buy you a chinese copy of a "Swiss Army Knife" with different badging? The steel is cheap as well as the action, f&f? It wasn't an "Homage", it was a cheap trick to get the unsuspecting to buy it and take money away from the original company. And it worked. And it cost 1/2 to 1/3 the price, but still the end person (buyer) got ripped off.

My point is, it doesn't matter what name you put on it its wrong. Period.

Either you understand what I'm saying or you don't. But don't twist my words please.

Not twisting your words at all.
Just asking questions for clarification.

Also, just for clarification, if the knife has a different locking system, it will not be an “EXACT REPLICA.” Nor will it be an exact replica with different markings and packaging.

But, let’s take this a step farther shall we? An exact replica should have interchangeable parts with the original. I, as of yet, have never seen a case where fake parts would fit on an original.
PM2, Rat 1, or LionSteel SR1, the clone was always different and the parts would not interchange.

So, please don’t insult my intelligence by claiming the copies are an “EXACT REPLICA” when we both know that is normally not the case. Probably never unless the clones are made in the same factory as the original.

I think I understand your point of view though. Unless I am mistaken, you consider counterfeit knives, clones, and copies exactly the same. They are all counterfeit. The manufacturers are all crooks and their only goal is to rip off the public.

You and I probably only completely agree on one thing here. Clones hurt the knife industry.

 

[UmnumMAN]

I seen some "clone" sebenzas on ebay lol..

With a very weird name: "land"

I think they're like 20 bucks. Absolutely.
blasphemous if you ask me. I'd like to personally sit down with everyone considering to buy such junk, and give them a hands on lesson on why it isn't worth it

 

[sabre cat]

I seen some "clone" sebenzas on ebay lol..

With a very weird name: "land"

I think they're like 20 bucks. Absolutely.
blasphemous if you ask me. I'd like to personally sit down with everyone considering to buy such junk, and give them a hands on lesson on why it isn't worth it

I’ve seen them for ten bucks.

I have also seen reviews claiming they are the best $10 knife on the market.

Bottom line, you don’t get much knife for ten dollars.

 

[Triton]

If you were in the bathroom, and the **** hit the fan, would you want to grab a Sanrenmu or a Protech Strider Auto PT?

Maybe a mop and bucket and some disinfectant.... A knife not so much.....

 

[Triton]

double post

 

[not2sharp]

....
Bottom line, you don’t get much knife for ten dollars.

I would argue that you can get a lot of knife for $10. These generic makers don't have to invest in developing, or marketing; they needn't worry about warranty or customer service, they need not use quality materials or any expensive premium finishes, they even copy and steal the art on the packaging and markings. The cost of the product itself is nominal. These guys can make a better $10 knife than any legitimate knife company. Their only real cost is production and they are free to cut corners at will.

But, we know it is not that simple. Collectors aren't worried about the cost as much as they worry about price and paying full premium prices for fraudulent product. We are not worried about buying a $10 knockoff Spyderco, we are worried about buying a $200 Spyderco and getting a $10 knockoff in its place. Which, is worth even less than that, since any attempt to resell this stuff will directly undermine your credibility as a seller.

It is a disgusting criminal practice that can potentially sour young collectors and do great harm to our legitimate makers and the hobby on the whole. But, lets not lie to ourselves; if these things are good enough to fool advanced collectors, they have way more going for them than the average gas station knife.

I have been actively collecting for over 40 years, and along the way I have accumulated a small box of fakes which I purchased as the real articles along the way. It happens to all of us, no matter how careful you are there is always a small risk of getting burned, and a few of these will slip through over time. It is part of the cost of our education and you keep them as reference texts to remind you of what can be lurking out there. Caveat Emptor apples now as it always has. Be careful, but give the devil his due; if you pretend otherwise you are setting yourself up to be a victim.

n2s

 

[UmnumMAN]

Half the battle is choosing who you do business with. I buy slot of stuff through amazon knowing its a risk(Im dumb), but being careful who I buy from. My last few transactions were above and beyond.

I've heard Ebay is just as risky

 

[sabre cat]

I have four SAK clones. Two were gifts. I keep them around to show people what not to buy.

The other two appear to be Victorinox “contract knives.”
They look exactly like the real thing but have a different name on the blade. I am assuming they are the real deal but made for someone else. The only SAK clones I have ever found to be any good.

They perform equal to the real thing. I have compared them side by side with known Spartan models. No difference.

 

[sabre cat]

I would argue that you can get a lot of knife for $10. These generic makers don't have to invest in developing, or marketing; they needn't worry about warranty or customer service, they need not use quality materials or any expensive premium finishes, they even copy and steal the art on the packaging and markings. The cost of the product itself is nominal. These guys can make a better $10 knife than any legitimate knife company. Their only real cost is production and they are free to cut corners at will.

But, we know it is not that simple. Collectors aren't worried about the cost as much as they worry about price and paying full premium prices for fraudulent product. We are not worried about buying a $10 knockoff Spyderco, we are worried about buying a $200 Spyderco and getting a $10 knockoff in its place. Which, is worth even less than that, since any attempt to resell this stuff will directly undermine your credibility as a seller.

It is a disgusting criminal practice that can potentially sour young collectors and do great harm to our legitimate makers and the hobby on the whole. But, lets not lie to ourselves; if these things are good enough to fool advanced collectors, they have way more going for them than the average gas station knife.

I have been actively collecting for over 40 years, and along the way I have accumulated a small box of fakes which I purchased as the real articles along the way. It happens to all of us, no matter how careful you are there is always a small risk of getting burned, and a few of these will slip through over time. It is part of the cost of our education and you keep them as reference texts to remind you of what can be lurking out there. Caveat Emptor apples now as it always has. Be careful, but give the devil his due; if you pretend otherwise you are setting yourself up to be a victim.

n2s

I have to admit you have a good argument and make some valid points.

I must tip my hat to you, sir.

 

[Boxer .45]

Not twisting your words at all.
Just asking questions for clarification.

Also, just for clarification, if the knife has a different locking system, it will not be an “EXACT REPLICA.” Nor will it be an exact replica with different markings and packaging.

But, let’s take this a step farther shall we? An exact replica should have interchangeable parts with the original. I, as of yet, have never seen a case where fake parts would fit on an original.
PM2, Rat 1, or LionSteel SR1, the clone was always different and the parts would not interchange.

So, please don’t insult my intelligence by claiming the copies are an “EXACT REPLICA” when we both know that is normally not the case. Probably never unless the clones are made in the same factory as the original.

I think I understand your point of view though. Unless I am mistaken, you consider counterfeit knives, clones, and copies exactly the same. They are all counterfeit. The manufacturers are all crooks and their only goal is to rip off the public.

You and I probably only completely agree on one thing here. Clones hurt the knife industry.

When the handle and blade dimensions are the same, and grinds the same, and pins are the same place and lanyard hole, and handle material is the same type, and the opening mechanism is the same...just because you change the lock doesn't make it different. You are copying the exact same knife with the intention of stealing from the original company. Its exactly the same knife except for shitty materials and generally f&f and the lock.
Usually they copy it before copyrights and patents even are close to running out.

Its not different, much, than slapping a spyder or butterfly (etc) on there and making the lock the same.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Maybe a mop and bucket and some disinfectant.... A knife not so much.....

Hahaha...now that was funny.

 

[Reswob]

Fine. You have no respect for it.
We get that.

However, it is not a counterfeit if it has a different lock system than the real deal. And, it can’t be a counterfeit with different markings than the real thing.

It can, however, be illegal or legal depending upon the situation. Right or wrong is up to you.

I am curious, do you personally consider copies, clones, and “homage” knives all counterfeit?

Whether or not the knockoff has a fake Spyder or butterfly logo on the blade, using the exact same design (even with a different lock or material) as a "real" knife is still theft of the real company's intellectual property, and it's still disgusting that people on this forum would buy or sell them. There are a couple knockoff Spyderco Paramilitaries in the for sale section right now. They don't have a Spyderco logo and the seller is not claiming they are Spyderco PMs, but they are still fakes/knockoffs/clones.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

^grrrr...knockoffs. Tsk tsk

 

[soc_monki]

Give me genuine or give me death. I say this as I eat my apple with my 20cv Griptilian... So hard use!