Benchmade China Knockoff Benchmade Bugout and Spyderco Paramilitary 2

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This AK-47 was recently posted in the CS forum and the question was asked if it was real or fake. It was an obvious fake for those familiar, as the real ones are not liner-lock, and they don't have a flipper tab. But to those that say those differences mean it's technically not a counterfeit, I call BS. With CS markings, it was intended to deceive, plain and simple, and therefore absolutely a counterfeit.

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... With CS markings, it was intended to deceive, plain and simple, and therefore absolutely a counterfeit....

Very few knives or knife features are patented. So replicating a knife is not a real issue, it is expected. But, the makers do have copyright and trademark protection and replicating either is nothing less than theft and fraud.

n2s
 
This AK-47 was recently posted in the CS forum and the question was asked if it was real or fake. It was an obvious fake for those familiar, as the real ones are not liner-lock, and they don't have a flipper tab. But to those that say those differences mean it's technically not a counterfeit, I call BS. With CS markings, it was intended to deceive, plain and simple, and therefore absolutely a counterfeit.

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I don't think anyone's saying that a product that's branded in an attempt to pass itself off as a genuine article isn't a counterfeit, whether it's an accurate copy or not. I've yet to see anyone on here say that selling cheap counterfeit knives in an attempt to rip-off unsuspecting customers is in any way justifiable. If your goal is to make people think they're getting a real product at a bargain price by selling a counterfeit, that's clearly a crime, and unlicensed use of trademarks is also unlawful.

The area that really divides people is how they'd feel about that same knife if it didn't have the markings. To some, the switch from back lock to a liner lock with a flipper tab is substantial enough to not be bent out of shape about it; some will say that we, as a community, shouldn't support companies whose designs are clearly modeled on existing products. Neither of these positions is wrong, and it's possible to agree with both. There are some very high-end clone and homage knives that could stand up to the real thing, and are worth their price in terms of quality and materials. There are many side-by-side comparisons of clone Shirogorovs against the real deal, and it's pretty much universally concluded that the $200+ clones are very nice knives.

Very few knives or knife features are patented. So replicating a knife is not a real issue, it is expected. But, the makers do have copyright and trademark protection and replicating either is nothing less than theft and fraud.

n2s

Copyright doesn't apply to "utilitarian" works, just "sculptural" and "aesthetic" ones. Despite what some people claim, there is no legal protection for the shape of a knife or blade. You'd only get copyright protection to the extent a feature/piece is purely sculptural or decorative with no functional or utilitarian value, which really limits the vast majority of knifemakers' ability to protect their ideas. This "Sculptural Knife Vase" by Chris Bathgate is one of the few "blades" (the blades are legitimately heat-treated and sharpened AEBL) I've seen that can legitimately claim copyright protection, but it's an actual sculpture rather than a tool.

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Generally, there's no trademark coverage for functional aspects either, so they only really apply to wordmarks and logos in the knife world. The one sort-of exception to this is Spyderco's trademark for the Spydiehole, which they argued had become a brand signature (it's a relatively rare example of something that was patented and later allowed to be trademarked; in order to maintain the trademark, they are obliged to include a non-functional hole on their fixed blades).
 
The copyright would primarily apply to the art, as in the packaging design and graphics and the documentation (warranty, instructions, thank you notes, and so on). They often fake more than just the knife.

n2s
 
Art shows the personality, values, and taste of the owner, and imho knives are art.

If you feel the need to buy a knock off. It just means your cheap, shallow, and perhaps slightly psychopathic as obviously you don't care about hurting the original artist, or the person you scammed selling it to. It's all about you and your vain persona.

If you can buy 50 fakes for the price of 1 original then so what? What's the point? It's like saying "Well I've got 50 fake vases in my house all over the place cause I'm too cheap and ignorant to buy the original"

Good art is something you strive for and work hard to obtain and that's what gives it value. Life is about priorities and fakes are meaningless materialism.
 
The area that really divides people is how they'd feel about that same knife if it didn't have the markings. To some, the switch from back lock to a liner lock with a flipper tab is substantial enough to not be bent out of shape about it; some will say that we, as a community, shouldn't support companies whose designs are clearly modeled on existing products. Neither of these positions is wrong, and it's possible to agree with both. There are some very high-end clone and homage knives that could stand up to the real thing, and are worth their price in terms of quality and materials. There are many side-by-side comparisons of clone Shirogorovs against the real deal, and it's pretty much universally concluded that the $200+ clones are very nice knives.
I doesn't matter if the copy is a "very nice" knife. It doesn't even matter if it's a superior product. It's still outright theft.
 
The copyright would primarily apply to the art, as in the packaging design and graphics and the documentation (warranty, instructions, thank you notes, and so on). They often fake more than just the knife.

n2s

If they’re violating copyright related to packaging and inserts, it’s because they’re making counterfeits, which means you’ve already got trademark (and occasionally patent) infringement. It doesn’t really make sense to sell an unbranded clone with counterfeit packaging.

I doesn't matter if the copy is a "very nice" knife. It doesn't even matter if it's a superior product. It's still outright theft.

This is an excellent example of what I was talking about when I said: “When it's done in a completely legal fashion, the argument against becomes a vague moral objection to ’copying’”
 
I don't have a problem with Ganzo to a certain extent as they don't advertise high quality steel but yes they take designs outright and copy them albeit small changes here and there but some are just blatant.

The Chinese Benchmade clones are just theft, they try and sell you the box, bag and the "S30V" which you're not getting so they should be outlawed as it's just counterfeit.

Twosun/Sanrenmu/Enlan etc does the same thing they have unique designs now but they were known as blatant knockoffs but they do advertise their steel as correct at least.
 
I don't have a problem with Ganzo to a certain extent as they don't advertise high quality steel but yes they take designs outright and copy them albeit small changes here and there but some are just blatant.

The Chinese Benchmade clones are just theft, they try and sell you the box, bag and the "S30V" which you're not getting so they should be outlawed as it's just counterfeit.

Twosun/Sanrenmu/Enlan etc does the same thing they have unique designs now but they were known as blatant knockoffs but they do advertise their steel as correct at least.

SRM has always made a lot of their own designs, as well as being an OEM for others (the CRKT Drifter being a prominent one). What SRM, Ganzo, TwoSun and Enlan don’t do is use someone else’s branding. Even the most blatantly copied design by Ganzo will be plastered with Ganzo’s logo.
 
If a company is making counterfeit products they are in the wrong. Period. This would include branding and packaging.

If they produce a product that is modified (example: a PM2 with an Axis Lock) and still use the original makers branding and packaging,they are still producing a counterfeit product. At least to me. Anytime someone uses branding and packaging that is not theirs, it is a counterfeit item in my eyes. No matter what the product design may be.

If they use different logos then it starts becoming less black and white and a little more grey. I am not saying it’s OK if it is grey but some members look at it only as black and white.

My biggest issue with all of this is the double standards on some of it. Ganzo is given zero wiggle room, for example, but, other manufacturers are completely ignored. Their items are acceptable. Effectively they are given a pass on their actions.

Worse yet, some members are clearly attacking the morality of other members because they don’t see eye to eye on the issue.

Sadly, I don’t expect anything to change until we have clearly defined definitions for the terms
counterfeit, clone, and copy. Probably not even then.

Also understand that we have zero control over the morals and choices of other BF.com members. Something that many members do not realize. Or if they do, you can’t tell it from their comments or actions.
 
SRM has always made a lot of their own designs, as well as being an OEM for others (the CRKT Drifter being a prominent one). What SRM, Ganzo, TwoSun and Enlan don’t do is use someone else’s branding. Even the most blatantly copied design by Ganzo will be plastered with Ganzo’s logo.

For sure, they have never tried to piggy back on brand name as saying hey look this is a "so and so" but for $200 cheaper. They definitely ripped off designs though but tweaked them enough with a small spin on it such as their "spidey hole" ganzo that is.

Paddy on youtube uploaded a benchmade knock off awhile back and that sucker was pure counterfeit but to each their own, I'm not going to chastise anyone who want's a knockoff it's the same with watches and people who bought pirated vhs/dvds back in the 90's early 2000's. They should crack down on them being sold though at least that's my opinion.

No doubt we use products in our daily lives that were ripped off from other companies, korea/china/taiwan/india they all stole ideas from American made products and and now we buy them in mass droves because they're cheaper.

Should you buy a blatant counterfeit????........I wouldn't but so many people are calling people out when it's the pot calling the kettle black as they have some knock off four slice toaster that was ripped off 20 years ago in their kitchen.
 
To be clear, look alike knives are accepted, but certainly not knives that use unlicensed trademarks of other makers or manufacturers. These are purely fraudulent products, designed to take money out the pockets of the proper owners, and to defraud collectors and users like us.

n2s
Look alike knives aren't accepted. Stolen designs wether the model name is the same or something completely different,
 
Look alike knives aren't accepted...

Using that logic there are Kershaw and Case knives you should not own because they are effectively copies of a Buck 110.
And it is not isolated to Buck and just those two companies.

It can be argued that you support thieves if you buy any product from a company that makes clones. Whether you bought the clone are not. How many of us are guilty of not buying the counterfeit but another model?

If not with knives, how about laptops, watches, paintings, automobiles, or motorcycles?

Some members are so absolute on this clone cr*p that they can’t see the forest for the trees.
 
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...No doubt we use products in our daily lives that were ripped off from other companies, korea/china/taiwan/india they all stole ideas from American made products and and now we buy them in mass droves because they're cheaper.

Should you buy a blatant counterfeit????........I wouldn't but so many people are calling people out when it's the pot calling the kettle black as they have some knock off four slice toaster that was ripped off 20 years ago in their kitchen.


Thank you.

I could not have said it better myself...well, actually, I could not said it anywhere close to as good as you did.
 
This is an excellent example of what I was talking about when I said: “When it's done in a completely legal fashion, the argument against becomes a vague moral objection to ’copying’”
If it's done in a "completely legal fashion", then there is no moral objection.
 
For sure, they have never tried to piggy back on brand name as saying hey look this is a "so and so" but for $200 cheaper. They definitely ripped off designs though but tweaked them enough with a small spin on it such as their "spidey hole" ganzo that is.

Paddy on youtube uploaded a benchmade knock off awhile back and that sucker was pure counterfeit but to each their own, I'm not going to chastise anyone who want's a knockoff it's the same with watches and people who bought pirated vhs/dvds back in the 90's early 2000's. They should crack down on them being sold though at least that's my opinion.

No doubt we use products in our daily lives that were ripped off from other companies, korea/china/taiwan/india they all stole ideas from American made products and and now we buy them in mass droves because they're cheaper.

Should you buy a blatant counterfeit????........I wouldn't but so many people are calling people out when it's the pot calling the kettle black as they have some knock off four slice toaster that was ripped off 20 years ago in their kitchen.
Here's the thing though, we don't give a #$!@& about toasters on this forum. We are not passionate about toasters. We are passionate about our hobby which is knives and this is a forum for people that are passionate about knives. We don't "hang out" here to listen to people sing the praises of companies that are hurting our hobby.
 
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