China & Tariffs

Tariffs are taxes that are levied on manufacturers. They are inflationary and eventually force higher prices for the goods, so they wind up being a tax on consumers - us.

I feel as you're correct sir, but it seems to me you're stopping a step short in the natural progression tariffs enact-- perhaps THE natural progression tariffs are intended to follow, and strategically impart.

Consider this question:

What happens to prices if consumers stop purchasing the higher priced goods?

I think by limiting the effects of tariffs to negatives for the consumer <ELU, in Spyderco terms> you may be overlooking the main market pressure tariffs ideally exert, that is, to suppress demand and force prices to lower <short term> and hopefully leverage the opposing side back to the bargaining table <ultimately>...

Let's not forget we're talking about blades-- they are not essential goods-- at least not to the general public who are not steel addicts like me! ;):p

So most folks will do what comes natural when things get too highly priced-- they stop buying since it's not a good/service that they can live without.
 
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I've steadily watched the price increase in the last 4 days on certain things I was watching ( like many was looking to spend Christmas gift cards) . I watched the tenacious go up over $10 and also was eyeing a rat 2 and now the rat 2 cost more then I paid for the rat 1. Some might not give a crap but for the folks who don't have disposable income but still want to get into the nicer knives and work there way up its very discouraging. Not everyone can afford USA made. He who hesitates is lost lol
 
I've steadily watched the price increase in the last 4 days on certain things I was watching ( like many was looking to spend Christmas gift cards) . I watched the tenacious go up over $10 and also was eyeing a rat 2 and now the rat 2 cost more then I paid for the rat 1. Some might not give a crap but for the folks who don't have disposable income but still want to get into the nicer knives and work there way up its very discouraging. Not everyone can afford USA made. He who hesitates is lost lol

That's the point of the tariffs though. Make foreign goods cost more so that US made is more appealing and cheaper. Companies with no US manufacturing should be hit harder. The knife market was already crazy before tarrifs.
 
As many of you know (or should now) that there are tariffs being created for many products made in China, as well as other countries. You also know that we make a number of products in China, including knives and sharpening parts. We're already experiencing these tariffs on some of the steels we import. Eventually we are going to be hit with up to 25% in tariffs for our Chinese made models. Naturally we will have to pass on those costs. I would like to know your thoughts on this?

sal

I'm boycotting your company and encourage others to do so until you stop hiding behind vague excuses and return prices to reasonable standards, or you go under.
 
I'm boycotting your company and encourage others to do so until you stop hiding behind vague excuses and return prices to reasonable standards, or you go under.
I don't agree with government price controls on private companies. That feels wrong.
 
I'm boycotting your company and encourage others to do so until you stop hiding behind vague excuses and return prices to reasonable standards, or you go under.

LOL! I'll buy your share.

You realize that all companies that buy materials from, or produce products in certain overseas countries, are going to either charge more or make a cheaper product. Sal was the only one that I know of that cared to discuss it with his patrons.

[Poster joined today. Just to state a boycott?:rolleyes: :poop: o_O]
 
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I don't agree with government price controls on private companies. That feels wrong.

The government isn't imposing "price controls". They are adjusting trade tariffs to FAIR, what the opposing countries have been charging us for decades while ours were very low.
 
The government isn't imposing "price controls". They are adjusting trade tariffs to FAIR, what the opposing countries have been charging us for decades while ours were very low.
My post was specific to our now departed new member.
 
The government isn't imposing "price controls". They are adjusting trade tariffs to FAIR, what the opposing countries have been charging us for decades while ours were very low.

This statement (and other comments that I've read in this thread) indicates a basic lack of understanding about how tariffs work.

Foreign nations do not "charge us" for anything. The tariffs imposed by the US on foreign goods are paid by the people and companies who import those goods and that money is paid to the US Treasury via the Commerce Dept or whatever department regulates the importation of goods. Those importers then pass on the cost of those tariffs (which are, in effect, taxes) on those goods (whether sold directly as already manufactured products or as components of products that they make) by raising the prices of those products or goods that WE consumers pay for to make up for the cost of the tariffs paid.

The same thing happens in foreign nations. They charge tariffs on importers of American goods into those countries and do not charge or attempt to collect those tariffs from the US government. Consumers in foreign countries pay for those tariffs on American goods to the companies who pass on the cost of the tariffs paid to the governments of those countries.

This is why tariffs are both inflationary and recessionary. Tariffs raise the cost of goods to consumers w/o any benefit in the quality of those goods, which is purely inflationary. Since tariffs raise the cost of goods, it also makes consumers less likely to buy them which is recessionary. A "tariff war" is antithetical to "free trade" and is damaging to the economy of all countries and the financial well being of all people involved.

Does this mean that we are more likely to buy more costly American made goods as a result? Of course NOT! Why would you buy more expensive goods, when you can buy the same goods for less? Even if the cost of goods made in China goes up, you'll still probably buy them instead of American goods, unless there is no (or very little) difference in the cost or unless you choose to pay more simply because you believe in buying only American made goods. The latter is an admirable philosophy but few people who have to make ends meet and live pay check to paycheck would make that choice.

One of other the glaring effects of Trump's ill conceived trade war w/China is that China decided NOT to buy ANY (as in NONE, ZERO) soybeans from American farmers since the tariffs were put into effect. This means that American soybean farmers are going bankrupt, which is why the Republican Congress passed a $800 BILLLION (with a B) Farm Bill to bail out soybean and other farmers suffering from the effects of the tariffs.

So, who's paying that $800 Billion? American taxpayers, like you and me, of course. So, not only do we have to pay MORE for Chinese (and other) goods because of the Trump tariffs, we have to pay more of our tax money to bail out farmers who are going bankrupt because of those tariffs.

These actual and anticipated negative economic effects are also not limited to pocket book issues. They affect your investment portfolio as well. The recent 15% drop in the stock market is a direct consequence of the "market's" prediction of a decline in corporate profitability due to the tariffs and other economic factors. Apple's announcement today of likely LOSSES due to the tariffs and other factors, which contributed to a 600+ point loss in the Dow, is not and will not be an isolated event. Other companies are expected to make similarly negative economic predictions. So, if you've got $ in the market, this would be a good time to take profits if you have any or cut losses on holdings where you don't.

This is why starting a tariff war w/China and other countries was a very, very bad idea.
 
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This statement (and other comments that I've read in this thread) indicates a basic lack of understanding about how tariffs work.

Foreign nations do not "charge us" for anything. The tariffs imposed by the US on foreign goods are paid by the people and companies who import those goods and that money is paid to the US Treasury via the Commerce Dept or whatever department regulates the importation of goods. Those importers then pass on the cost of those tariffs (which are, in effect, taxes) on those goods (whether sold directly as already manufactured products or as components of products that they make) by raising the prices of those products or goods that WE consumers pay for to make up for the cost of the tariffs paid.

The same thing happens in foreign nations. They charge tariffs on importers of American goods into those countries and do not charge or attempt to collect those tariffs from the US government. Consumers in foreign countries pay for those tariffs on American goods to the companies who pass on the cost of the tariffs paid to the governments of those countries.

This is why tariffs are both inflationary and recessionary. Tariffs raise the cost of goods to consumers w/o any benefit in the quality of those goods, which is purely inflationary. Since tariffs raise the cost of goods, it also makes consumers less likely to buy them which is recessionary. A "tariff war" is antithetical to "free trade" and is damaging to the economy of all countries and the financial well being of all people involved.

Does this mean that we are more likely to buy more costly American made goods as a result? Of course NOT! Why would you buy more expensive goods, when you can buy the same goods for less? Even if the cost of goods made in China goes up, you'll still probably buy them instead of American goods, unless there is no (or very little) difference in the cost or unless you choose to pay more simply because you believe in buying only American made goods. The latter is an admirable philosophy but few people who have to make ends meet and live pay check to paycheck would make that choice.

One of other the glaring effects of Trump's ill conceived trade war w/China is that China decided NOT to buy ANY (as in NONE, ZERO) soybeans from American farmers since the tariffs were put into effect. This means that American soybean farmers are going bankrupt, which is why the Republican Congress passed a $800 BILLLION (with a B) Farm Bill to bail out soybean and other farmers suffering from the effects of the tariffs.

So, who's paying that $800 Billion? American taxpayers, like you and me, of course. So, not only do we have to pay MORE for Chinese (and other) goods because of the Trump tariffs, we have to pay more of our tax money to bail out farmers who are going bankrupt because of those tariffs.

These actual and anticipated negative economic effects are also not limited to pocket book issues. They affect your investment portfolio as well. The recent 15% drop in the stock market is a direct consequence of the "market's" prediction of a decline in corporate profitability due to the tariffs and other economic factors. Apple's announcement today of likely LOSSES due to the tariffs and other factors is and will not be an isolated event. Other companies are expected to make similarly negative economic predictions. So, if you've got $ in the market, this would be a good time to take profits if you have any or cut losses on holdings where you don't.

This is why starting a tariff war w/China and other countries was a very, very bad idea.

You can look at it however you want. So China isn't buying soybeans, they haven't bought a lot of other stuff from the US for a long time either because of unfair and unbalanced tariffs. Now they aren't exporting as much to the US either.

I don't care about instant day one gratification, this is a decades old problem and if someone else had done it way back when we wouldn't have shut down plants and businesses or put so many millions out of work as we have had.

Unemployment is down, companies, are having to bring back manufacturing and production here in the US again which creates more jobs and skilled labor. That takes people off unemployment, welfare, housing, food stamps, government insurance, and more which costs tax dollars. It also means more people have more money to spend on American made goods and services which makes more jobs.

If those other countries hadn't had unfair trade deals for several decades now we wouldn't be in the fix we are now. I'm tired of buying chinese crap and I'm tired of supporting the Chinese economy instead of our own.
 
Just a gentle reminder that the world as it is was someone else's idea.
 
I'm boycotting your company and encourage others to do so until you stop hiding behind vague excuses and return prices to reasonable standards, or you go under.
We all vote with our wallet. If you feel a given knife is not a good value, don't buy it. It's that simple.

This statement (and other comments that I've read in this thread) indicates a basic lack of understanding about how tariffs work.

Foreign nations do not "charge us" for anything. The tariffs imposed by the US on foreign goods are paid by the people and companies who import those goods and that money is paid to the US Treasury via the Commerce Dept or whatever department regulates the importation of goods. Those importers then pass on the cost of those tariffs (which are, in effect, taxes) on those goods (whether sold directly as already manufactured products or as components of products that they make) by raising the prices of those products or goods that WE consumers pay for to make up for the cost of the tariffs paid.

The same thing happens in foreign nations. They charge tariffs on importers of American goods into those countries and do not charge or attempt to collect those tariffs from the US government. Consumers in foreign countries pay for those tariffs on American goods to the companies who pass on the cost of the tariffs paid to the governments of those countries.

This is why tariffs are both inflationary and recessionary. Tariffs raise the cost of goods to consumers w/o any benefit in the quality of those goods, which is purely inflationary. Since tariffs raise the cost of goods, it also makes consumers less likely to buy them which is recessionary. A "tariff war" is antithetical to "free trade" and is damaging to the economy of all countries and the financial well being of all people involved.

Does this mean that we are more likely to buy more costly American made goods as a result? Of course NOT! Why would you buy more expensive goods, when you can buy the same goods for less? Even if the cost of goods made in China goes up, you'll still probably buy them instead of American goods, unless there is no (or very little) difference in the cost or unless you choose to pay more simply because you believe in buying only American made goods. The latter is an admirable philosophy but few people who have to make ends meet and live pay check to paycheck would make that choice.

One of other the glaring effects of Trump's ill conceived trade war w/China is that China decided NOT to buy ANY (as in NONE, ZERO) soybeans from American farmers since the tariffs were put into effect. This means that American soybean farmers are going bankrupt, which is why the Republican Congress passed a $800 BILLLION (with a B) Farm Bill to bail out soybean and other farmers suffering from the effects of the tariffs.

So, who's paying that $800 Billion? American taxpayers, like you and me, of course. So, not only do we have to pay MORE for Chinese (and other) goods because of the Trump tariffs, we have to pay more of our tax money to bail out farmers who are going bankrupt because of those tariffs.

These actual and anticipated negative economic effects are also not limited to pocket book issues. They affect your investment portfolio as well. The recent 15% drop in the stock market is a direct consequence of the "market's" prediction of a decline in corporate profitability due to the tariffs and other economic factors. Apple's announcement today of likely LOSSES due to the tariffs and other factors, which contributed to a 600+ point loss in the Dow, is not and will not be an isolated event. Other companies are expected to make similarly negative economic predictions. So, if you've got $ in the market, this would be a good time to take profits if you have any or cut losses on holdings where you don't.

This is why starting a tariff war w/China and other countries was a very, very bad idea.
Firstly, thanks for the well written, rational response that is devoid of hyperbole. (The people who frequent the political discussion board here should read this as an example of how to share info.)

Agree with all your points. One other thing to consider is that some U.S. made goods may use foreign material. So if you want a U.S. made knife that uses foreign steel, tariffs will drive that price up as well.

The way I read the history of tariffs imposed by the U.S. is one of failing to achieve their intended goals and hurting us more than helping. Given the U.S. dependence on foreign goods, retaliatory tariffs from other countries seem to offset any gains from U.S. import tariffs.
 
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I don't blame you folks, but it makes me fairly unhappy. If prices increase, I'll buy fewer knives, just no way to get around that. It's been going that way for a few years now.
Oh, I know it's been a bit, but I thought of an important caveat to this. I do love getting a lot of bang for my buck, but if China made knives increase in price, that will push me towards knives made in other places. Like, say, just to pull a name out of a hat, knives made in Golden, Colorado, USA, Earth. ;)
 
You gotta do what you gotta do, Sal.

I'd advise to move away from the Chinese steel and production and more toward American.

Let the other companies make the crappy knives with 8Cr. Spyderco should focus on American EVERYTHING.

Expand the Golden factory. Close the Chinese ones; Taichung too, if necessary. Take your tools with you, so they can't do any moonlighting.

What we REALLY want to see is America being #1 again.

Believe it or not, I'm not a Trump fan. But I think he got it right, here. American companies should beef up AMERICA, not other countries.
 
I'm boycotting your company and encourage others to do so until you stop hiding behind vague excuses and return prices to reasonable standards, or you go under.


Hi Anonymous,

Welcome to our forum and thnax for your input.

sal
 
What about another country in SE Asia like Vietnam?...I realize this would carry it's own set of costs to relocate production. It just seem to me that at this point, even if we were to return to pre-tariff arragements, production is located in a China that is increasingly hostile to an American manufacturers well-being. Eventually, this will come around to bite the "proverbial" behind. What we are experiencing now is not going to go away. Just like when Trump leaves office, significant "sentiment" will remain. What if several knife companies banded together and cooperated to establish a knife manufacturing "enclave" outside of China in another developing SE Asian, South American (Argentina?) or African nation where production costs would equal that in China? It ought to tell us much that China is investing heavily in African development! If the British don't get a Brexit deal by March, Sheffield may once again be the blade capitol of the western world. (kidding, of course).
 
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The thing with price increases due to artificial elements like tariffs or rises in the price of oil never go back down once those costs are eliminated. Awhile back, everything went up in prices because of oil and gas prices. Did they go back down after oil prices stabilized? Nope. With insurance companies blaming Obamacare for rises in insurance cost, are we going to see a stop in rising prices for healthcare now that obamacare is almost dead? Yeah, right. Lets keep it honest, now.
 
I would rather not purchase a product that supports the economy of a nation that capitalizes on labor and environmental practices completely out of line with our American standards. We hold to our standards legally but the lower pricing of those who do not eventually eliminate the competition. I do not feel sorry for those of you who will have to pay 25 percent more for some item made by essentially a child slave who will not have supper tonight because his government vindictively decided to not allow soy bean imports.
 
If people would stop supporting these economies the world could be a much better place. I don't purchase made in China if I can possibly help it, and give preference to those companies without manufacturing in china.
 
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