Chinese clones of Chinese brands

[AtechReviews]

that is a patent long run out

Also Cantik is selling the piece under their own name, not claiming you are buying a walther.

So did the US Patent No. 5737841 "Pocket knife with Lock", but you still bash Ganzo Knives around here.

 

[PURPLEDC]

But the Walther itself is based on a Browning hi-power. Still false equivalency, since that is a patent long run out, and still doesn't justify counterfeiting knives. Also Cantik is selling the piece under their own name, not claiming you are buying a walther.

Wrong. The canik Tp9 is based on the walther P99. The P99 was designed in 1994. The P99 is not a high power copy. The high power isnt a polymer frame pistol. now the p99 was designed a little over twenty years ago but its still a modern pistol and not a classic like a 1911 or an AR which everyone makes. You stated nothing about patents in your original guns arent a good comparison post. Canik gives no credit to walther. Yes they sell under their own name. But that is why i have consistently stated their is distinction between clones and counterfeits. Making a knife in the likeness of another under its own name happens all the time. Boker is a huge offender. I dont see many people calling for a boker ban. But is that the metric? After a certain amount of time a design is fair game? I highly doubt if someone started making and selling terzoula atcf clones that they would be given a pass seeing its one of the oldest and well known tactical knife designs. Either way it only takes a google search of top twenty gun clones to get a list with some modern weapons that copied each other. It happens even more with watches.

 

[gadgetgeek]

I get that this gets muddy, and I guess we are talking about two different things. A Walther P99 is cam-locked breach of the same design as a browning hi-power designed in the late 20s-early30s. So mechanically that is where they are going with it. External appearances are similar, but due to the complexity of firearm design, you could find prior art of all of the factors. Its not like the Walther p99 is revolutionary in its design, rather it is evolutionary, and shares traits with many others. Just like in knives, knives have a point, a spine, a pocket clip perhaps, So there are only so many permutations possible.

The difference as I see it is that with knives we often see knives that are both functionally identical, and produced or marketed in such a way as to mislead.
My problem with Ganzo is that their knives are sold with using the term axis-lock which is not a generic term like lock-back and are designed in such a way to mislead the consumer into believing they may be buying a product from a different company. Recently that has started to change, and I see them marked more clearly, but I still lump them in with the guys churning out fake H1 dragonflies, since they don't do enough to differentiate themselves. If they had clearly waited until the Benchmade patent was expired, then marketed their own designs using their own design language and calling the lock something else, then I think the feelings might be different.

There are not clear lines here, but trying to find the exceptions does seem weaselly. It involves a lot of moving the goal-posts. that is not to say that over time companies won't build a reputation, but that hasn't happened yet for me. One of the things that would help is that instead of trying to justify counterfeits and clones, is if the argument was made for why something is not a clone.

 

[kiemtruong]

too much talking here..buy one already.

 

[PURPLEDC]

But the Walther itself is based on a Browning hi-power. Still false equivalency, since that is a patent long run out, and still doesn't justify counterfeiting knives. Also Cantik is selling the piece under their own name, not claiming you are buying a walther.

Where do you get that the walther P99 is based on a browning Hi power? And again, we aren't talking patents homie. We are talking about replicating the likeness of another design without permission. Knives in many cases don't fall under the protection of patents. Yet it really ruffles feathers when someone replicates a design that has no patents to protect. And again, for the millionth time we aren't just talking about counterfeits. Many clones are sold under their own name. Yet people in this thread are claiming that is wrong regardless. Are you reading the same posts I am?

 

[PURPLEDC]

I get that this gets muddy, and I guess we are talking about two different things. A Walther P99 is cam-locked breach of the same design as a browning hi-power designed in the late 20s-early30s. So mechanically that is where they are going with it. External appearances are similar, but due to the complexity of firearm design, you could find prior art of all of the factors. Its not like the Walther p99 is revolutionary in its design, rather it is evolutionary, and shares traits with many others. Just like in knives, knives have a point, a spine, a pocket clip perhaps, So there are only so many permutations possible.

The difference as I see it is that with knives we often see knives that are both functionally identical, and produced or marketed in such a way as to mislead.
My problem with Ganzo is that their knives are sold with using the term axis-lock which is not a generic term like lock-back and are designed in such a way to mislead the consumer into believing they may be buying a product from a different company. Recently that has started to change, and I see them marked more clearly, but I still lump them in with the guys churning out fake H1 dragonflies, since they don't do enough to differentiate themselves. If they had clearly waited until the Benchmade patent was expired, then marketed their own designs using their own design language and calling the lock something else, then I think the feelings might be different.

There are not clear lines here, but trying to find the exceptions does seem weaselly. It involves a lot of moving the goal-posts. that is not to say that over time companies won't build a reputation, but that hasn't happened yet for me. One of the things that would help is that instead of trying to justify counterfeits and clones, is if the argument was made for why something is not a clone.

Listen I'm convinced you will create any excuse for why the two don't compare. No matter how far you must reach to do it. Sure the P99 uses a modified version of the browning cam lock. But one is a striker fired polymer frame pistol and the other is not. They also look nothing alike. And the LOOKS are mostly what we are talking about here. We aren't talking patents, mechanics or any of the things you are trailing about. Most guns work similar to one another and share mechanisms. We aren't talking about that. We are talking about making one product look like another product without permission which does happen in firearms. And watches. And purses. And shoes, Televisions, phones, computers, cars, boats, aireplanes. You name it, people are copying it. And this junk about the P99 not being revolutionary? The most revolutionary knives aren't really being copied. Flavor of the week knives are. But is that what you are even saying now? that if a knife isn't revolutionary it can be copied?

I really don't understand why you are going off on all the most irrelevant paths and ignoring the stuff that actually matters when comparing the two. My point being there is absolutely ZERO tolerance for anything remotely called a "clone" in knives. Where other hobbies its almost commonplace. What flies in instruments wouldn't fly with knives. Jesus I have seen people say that the Kizer/britton tango thing was actually a copy of the zt 0560. That's ridiculous. Look my whole point is that copying happens in every single product made. And most other hobbies don't get as anal about it as the knife community does. And in knives it doesn't matter if a company makes a clone under its own name. It still gets hate.

 

[gadgetgeek]

All I can say is how I see it, and what the things that seem to ME to be important. Of course I don't speak for everyone here. My original post was an attempt to help the new guy understand what he was walking into, I obviously did a poor job of that.

As for why there is zero tolerance for clones, I think its because often we can point to one designer and its a person who is known to the community. So that makes it more personal, and therefore tensions get higher. Maybe that's wrong, but its my guess.

Anyway, we are not communicating well enough to get anywhere, and I'll take my share of that. Regardless we are not getting any further, its too muddy as I said.

 

[PURPLEDC]

All I can say is how I see it, and what the things that seem to ME to be important. Of course I don't speak for everyone here. My original post was an attempt to help the new guy understand what he was walking into, I obviously did a poor job of that.

As for why there is zero tolerance for clones, I think its because often we can point to one designer and its a person who is known to the community. So that makes it more personal, and therefore tensions get higher. Maybe that's wrong, but its my guess.

Anyway, we are not communicating well enough to get anywhere, and I'll take my share of that. Regardless we are not getting any further, its too muddy as I said.

I don't really think its that muddy. You seem to think that the p99 is based on the hi power based on a mechanism that is shared. I don't see it that way. To me the shared mechanism of those two guns would be like two knives that both have bearings and frame locks. Those are well known mechanisms that are used in many knives just like those two guns share a mechanism.

But when people talk clones its not if they both are frame locks. Its not about if both have bearing pivots. Cloning is about replicating the look, ergos and shapes of another knife. And THAT is why I compared the canik to P99. They look and feel similar. And there is no mistaking where the TP9 was trying to replicate. And that is why I feel its a valid comparison.

 

[gadgetgeek]

Purpledc
I get that, but when I look at the P99 and TP9, I see similarities to other guns in its category. But then the key is similarities. They are not a 1-1 copy. If I knew more about guns, I'd look at where individual design choices trace their linage to. But I cannot. You see a clone, I don't.

Also looking at age of the designs, axis lock, 20 years old, frame/liner lock... no idea, but I'm guessing far older than that. That's where I get the comparison from browning hi-power to P99, its the evolution of the basic mechanism, carried along, along with all those years of other makers design choices. in 20 years there will be many versions of the axis-type lock, and they will not be that big of a deal. But mechanism, vs basic overall design have to be part of the overall discussion, even though they are not the end-all-be-all. There has to be room for nuance in the discussion. Is there a difference between an LB7 and a Buck 110? is it not a problem because they were direct competitors at a reasonably similar price point, and both fit within the normal design language of the respective makers? I don't know lets come back to that idea.


Could it be that the hate for clones come from this phrase? "I can't afford knife-x so instead I bought knife-Y from this company that only makes copies of others designs?" Rather than this phrase "I can't afford knife-x, so I bought the closest comparable knife from another company that operates in a lower budget bracket"

To use a direct example. Lets say that Ganzo had only used the axis-lock, made the argument that the patent was expired, and designed their own bunch of knives, taking care to differentiate themselves in the market, we might have seen a different result. But by taking the "lazy" way and trying to ride on the designs of others, and then using loopholes to justify it, it seems shady. If it had been one knife, or even one small range of knives that ended up really similar because they follow the same design philosophy, that would likely be excused, but when its designs pulled from a heap of other makers, as well as using one feature that is associated with one maker, (and using their trademark name for it) its harder to find any reason to support that. Any subtle change could be enough, (to use your zt-0560 example, sure some subtle changes, but but how much change is enough? subjective you agree? I see it maybe not as a clone, but certainly not an original design)

Also when the argument is "well its not exactly illegal" "every other industry does it" just make it seem like whoever is making the argument is grasping at straws, all the more so, the vehement the argument. As I said before, I don't really care what you do, don't take that personally, we all have to draw our own line somewhere. I am of the opinion that clones are not good for the industry as a whole, and that clones and counterfeits are not really that different, but there are cases where a justification can be made, but those are so rare as that I can't think of any current ones.

I feel like you would like it to be clear cut, and that you are right and unquestioned. Can't say I fault that, we all do. However its a gray area, open to opinion and interpretation, and thats why I disputed your comparison, and as such your premise because one thing is okay, another should be as well. We can dispute definitions till the cows come home, it won't change anything. I'm trying to be helpful, my motivation is to try to explain why I see it as a problem. Look we probably agree on more than we disagree, but its all gotten lost in my rambling.

 

[Armadew]

Steeling is OK because other people do it too. Also, as long as you don't quite break the law, it's OK to steal someone else's hard work.

 

[trevitrace]

Steeling is OK because other people do it too. Also, as long as you don't quite break the law, it's OK to steal someone else's hard work.

So a dick move isn't a dick move because it isn't 'illegal'?

 

[AtechReviews]

My problem with Ganzo is that their knives are sold with using the term axis-lock which is not a generic term like lock-back and are designed in such a way to mislead the consumer into believing they may be buying a product from a different company. Recently that has started to change

Not accurate. Ganzo themselves call their lock a G-Lock but the people who sell their knives often use the term Axis Lock as it's far more familiar and catching (and, after 20 years of use, it might as well become generic name for that lock).
I don't think any intelligent individual would buy a Ganzo knife thinking he just bought a Benchmade.

So that makes it more personal, and therefore tensions get higher.

Exactly the problem. Too many people take this way too personal, and not logical.

Could it be that the hate for clones come from this phrase? "I can't afford knife-x so instead I bought knife-Y from this company that only makes copies of others designs?" Rather than this phrase "I can't afford knife-x, so I bought the closest comparable knife from another company that operates in a lower budget bracket"

Have you ever asked yourself the question why do people buy clones in the first place?
You can check the stats, they are selling pretty well even in the US, Australia and Canada.

Maybe it's not because they can't afford the knife, but rather because they are unwilling to pay the crazy prices charged for them, as the manufacturers intentionally keep the supply low and the demand high, but still would like to try the great design?
Good examples of those are some of the best selling clones ever - the RAD Cleaver, CKF Decepticon and Shiro clones.

Or maybe it's because the knife company's budget knives using the "same" design and designer are intentionally made poorly using cheap materials so those won't compete with the high end versions from the same companies?

Or maybe because companies prefer to put their resources into the war against clones, rather than to invest those to create a worldwide chain of suppliers that would bring the prices in countries outside of the US closer to the domestic prices?
Think about that the next time you are about to bash someone about a clone.

 

[gadgetgeek]

Let me respond. Ganzo calls it a G-lock, sellers call it the axis lock. its 20 years old, but still only one maker uses it, its not kleenex or xerox. not a generic. no point.
Intelligent individual doesn't factor in. Why make a one-to-one copy unless you are also planning on selling them as fakes. And its not just benchmade, spydero, esee, and others. no point

Who buys clones? all sorts of people. people also speed, does that make right? no point.

Manufactures create false scarcity, That doesn't make any sense. If the demand is there, they would fill it. Not filling demand has sunk more companies than its benefited, it works in the short term, but it will end. This is not the same as special editions, they are by definition limited, and that is its own discussion. No point.

Manufacturer use cheaper materials in budget knives... yes that is why they are budget knives... materials have costs. No point

Manufacturers waste money fighting clones, not building networks..... again, what world do you live in? Sal has worked to get import laws changed in Australia so that they could more clearly import legit knives because the cheap fakes were able to flood the market by volume. Shipping, taxes, low sales volumes are all tough things to handle. That's how he solved the problem, not trying to get a crack down on the fakes but by making it easier to sell the real deal. And I know that our local importer had the support of other knife brands as well, Sal just has a more direct presence on the forums. no point.

Any manufacturer that operated as you suggest would eventually, and rightly be out of business.

I award you no points.

Yes I'm getting snarky against my own advice, but you're just rolling out old arguments that just don't hold water. I might add that at no point have you disputed that the knives in question are in fact direct copies of someone else's creative work. I find that telling.

 

[AtechReviews]

sellers call it the axis lock. its 20 years old, but still only one maker uses it, its not kleenex or xerox. not a generic.

People who bash Ganzo also call it the Axis Lock. If you see only the lock of the knife you would also call it an Axis lock.
Also, I've heard people refer to the lock on the Spyderco Manix as an Axis lock or to the new Ant lock as a horizontal Axis lock.
So it seems like a generic name for that type of lock.
So -1 point to you for trying to prove me wrong here.

Intelligent individual doesn't factor in. Why make a one-to-one copy unless you are also planning on selling them as fakes.

Oh, I didn't know apes bought knives . + I was referring to Ganzos, and those aren't 1:1 copy of the Benchmade or any other knife (even the most lookalike models still have Ganzo logo on them).
Another -1 point to you.

people also speed, does that make right?

Yes, in case of an emergency for example.
(-2 Points)

Manufactures create false scarcity, That doesn't make any sense. If the demand is there, they would fill it.

Couldn't be more wrong there for the knife world. If the demand is there they won't fill it, but start doing auctions on Instagram or other platform to sell the knife for the highest price possible. Again RAD Knives and Shiros are great examples.
I bet you don't own either.
(-12 Points)

Manufacturer use cheaper materials in budget knives... yes that is why they are budget knives... materials have costs.

Most of the budget lines are made in China (or "Taiwan") using the same labor costs (sometimes in the same exact factories).
How the Chinese companies are able to make those from same or better materials but for far less $ (even the 100% original designs such as the Tekut Zero or the Harnds Talisman) and still make a profit?
(-10 Points)

Manufacturers waste money fighting clones, not building networks..... again, what world do you live in? Sal has worked to get import laws changed in Australia so that they could more clearly import legit knives because the cheap fakes were able to flood the market by volume. Shipping, taxes, low sales volumes are all tough things to handle. That's how he solved the problem, not trying to get a crack down on the fakes but by making it easier to sell the real deal. And I know that our local importer had the support of other knife brands as well, Sal just has a more direct presence on the forums.

Just checked prices in Australia. Cheapest plain Para 2 (that I could find) costs $260 (AUD) which are ~$200 (USD).
Price in the US - $125.97.
Prices in Europe, Russia and other knife countries outside of the US are also much higher than on the domestic market.
Again, not to disrespect Sal, he's probably done more than any other company to correct this issue.

Shipping, taxes, low sales volumes are all tough things to handle.

You are right, it's much easier to bash on clones.
(-74 Points, 1 point for each $ of price difference)

Summary: (-100) Points to you.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Steeling is OK because other people do it too. Also, as long as you don't quite break the law, it's OK to steal someone else's hard work.

No one said anything about what is or isnt ok. That is your statement. And its stealing.

 

[PURPLEDC]

So a dick move isn't a dick move because it isn't 'illegal'?

A dick move is a dick move. But some just have different ideas on what a dick move is in the first place. Take you and I. Some would look at us using the word dick outside of certain areas as a dick move in and of itself. You and I may not agree. We all have different tolerances for length and girth.

 

[Wilsonhome]

So did the US Patent No. 5737841 "Pocket knife with Lock", but you still bash Ganzo Knives around here.

They stole the patented design some years ago and, best I can tell, the patent is still in force.

 

[Armadew]

No one said anything about what is or isnt ok. That is your statement. And its stealing.

People are justifying the purchasing of knives that copy others by comparing them to other examples of the same. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If you're saying it's wrong, but do it anyway. Then fine. At least it's refreshing honesty.

And it's "it's" and "isn't."

 

[Armadew]

I've asked this before, but no one bothered to answer, so I'll ask it again:

I'll use an example from my own experiences.

Imagine you have a friend who is an artist. They put their heart and soul into a piece of art and they post it online.

A little down the road they see a company has stolen their art and is selling prints of it on posters, coffee mugs, shirts, etc.

The artist is upset, but the company technically didn't break any laws.

Would you purchase from said company and flaunt it around the artist and their friends? Telling them the company didn't break any laws?

Or would you side with the artist and condemn the thieving company?

I know where I stand.

 

[PURPLEDC]

People are justifying the purchasing of knives that copy others by comparing them to other examples of the same. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If you're saying it's wrong, but do it anyway. Then fine. At least it's refreshing honesty.

And it's "it's" and "isn't."

Ive said that countless times. I do things that some people consider "wrong". I think everyone has those things. They just happen to be different depending on who you are talking to. Now I don't own many clones anymore. But I think we all have justifications for taking certain risks or liberties. Take me for instance. I wont buy a counterfeits. If it has logos, I wont touch them anymore. Clones of certain brands such as say microtech. Who has been known to rip off anyone and everyone I have less compassion for.

I have said countless times. Knives are a hobby for me. As a hobby its the one area of my life I am selfish to an extent. And I do pick and choose when it comes to brands I don't mind clones of. If I saw a fake bodega (not that they exist) I wouldn't touch it. I like begg knives and I respect what they do. And I wouldn't want them being cloned. Strider? I'm of the opinion don't talk to me about a stolen design when your whole company was built on stolen valor. I have all sorts of reasonings that only make sense to me. And I would rather be honest about how I feel, than pretend I have a halo and angel wings. Some might consider it a oxymoron to be honest about what many consider dishonest.

And maybe that is really where my thoughts on this lie. I accept and acknowledge that others may see the subject of cloning as the ultimate evil in knives. And I respect their position even If I happen to disagree on some levels. And that is how I look at a lot of things. I may not agree with someone elses choices and they may not agree with mine, but I respect that at the end of the day they are our respective decisions to make and I pass no judgements on others because I know I have things in which to be judged. And I think we all do.